Natural Talent?

I have had a ton of people tell me I have a "natural" talent, but I couldn't say that is the case with a 100% degree of accuracy. I'm sure I have more "natural" talent than some people, but there are lots of players that I'm sure have way more than me.

I started playing as a kid and put in thousands of hours by the time I was a young teenager and could beat tons of people that had played for decades. Was it due to my "natural" talent or the fact that I played 8 hours a day, 6 days a week...or more?

SVB is a prime example. He will play every day for hours and hours and practice every minute between matches. He still doesn't win every tournament. There are others that practice way less than he does and they have played many years less that still beat him. Are they more "naturally" talented than he is?

I have quit several times and once for more than a decade. I can still play at an A-level, and sometimes higher, and I only play once a week. Is it because I am "naturally" talented or is it because I have retained some of my fundamentals?

I think some people can "see" the table better than others. I play with people who have played as long as I have (maybe nowhere the number of hours) that can't see simple (to me) "patterns". I see younger players that can "see" the patterns, but aren't talented enough yet to execute them.

Lots of people can make balls, but they can't see angles, patterns, and "escape routes" when they get into trouble. Once you are able to see the shots and patterns, you have to be able to execute them. That takes talent, whether it is "natural" or through practice. Hopefully you have a lot of both.
 
Agreed.

And if they do practice correctly for a while with the idea of talent in their head. When they can't make shots right away they get frustrated, blame talent, and quit or at minimal slow the learning process with their poor mindset. I wonder if they think SVB made every shot right away.

That's the good thing about learning something when you are a kid. The idea of talent never enters your head. When an adult starts considering talent they can find eveidence that they might not have what it takes. When they believe this they lose all motivation to practice and get better. They find it hard to put in the time and they even find real practice boring and a waste of time for them because after all they think they simply don't have the talent.

You, Mr.Eye and MuchoB make some very intelligent observations..My opinion (right or wrong) is that practice, per say, will not yield the results needed to be a world beater!..It takes a blend of natural talent, and an obsession to excel, which I felt I had both!..Personally, I hated practicing, and did almost none..I preferred being in high $$$ action, whether I had a good, or a bad game did not matter!

It was my way of measuring my progress, and it seemed to serve me well!..If it were strictly a matter of how much I practiced, I would have become bored very quickly, and probably would have quit the game!..I cannot argue with his success, but not everyone has the mindset of SVB or Corey Duell.

Practicing to me, was like taking a shower with your clothes on..This may not appeal to everyone, but it worked pretty well for me!..I became as good a player as I was ever going to be, fairly early on!

PS..Not bragging. but I beat a lot of people, who practiced 60 hrs. a week, while I was out having a few beers, and chasing the girls! :D
 
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Between the age 0f 14 to 18 I played at least 8 hours a day and I didn't play as good as some guys only playing a few hours a week. I come from a small town and didn't have proper instruction at the start. I had only an arcade room with a pool table in my town. I had played several years before I went to a bigger city with a pool hall and then learned about position. I met and lost to a 15 year old that had been playing for two years was there and could string 5 packs. I wanted to play good so bad I bought a table when I was 15 and some days would spend 16 hours playing. I never got there and I have quit many times. I just started back and I am 43 and shoot B speed. Gonna give it one more shot.
 
Between the age 0f 14 to 18 I played at least 8 hours a day and I didn't play as good as some guys only playing a few hours a week. I come from a small town and didn't have proper instruction at the start. I had only an arcade room with a pool table in my town. I had played several years before I went to a bigger city with a pool hall and then learned about position. I met and lost to a 15 year old that had been playing for two years was there and could string 5 packs. I wanted to play good so bad I bought a table when I was 15 and some days would spend 16 hours playing. I never got there and I have quit many times. I just started back and I am 43 and shoot B speed. Gonna give it one more shot.

Anybody who can run 5 packs after 2 years is something else.
 
In opinion, it’s all in the genes.

If the first time you pick up a stick and you can’t get down on the cue ball and be in line then you have no natural talent. If the first time you stroke a shot and you have no stroke, you have no natural talent.

I think most pool player have had relatives (father, mother grandparent) that played. If you don’t have any relatives that play I bet you have no natural talent
 
What makes a pool players natural talent? Is it just better hand eye coordination? I see people that have a natural ability to make balls. I do not have this and I envy people that do. I have seen a few people that could run out often after only playing for 9 months. Why couldn't I have this. To me, no amount of practice can over come natural abilities. Am I wrong to think this way?


A natural talent at pool is the guy who, with minimal study and effort, is able to make the OBs go into the pockets and make the CB behave as he expects.

The thing is, I believe that most of us have that ability, but, for most of us, all the body parts don't fall naturally into positions that allow us to effortlessly play at a high level. Each of us can set up in hundreds of different ways with slight but critical variations in head, eye, arm, hands, fingers, legs, and feet. Just think of a car motor and how precisely all the parts need to be machined and in place in relation to each other for the engine to work.

The natural just automatically set ups right and goes.

Lou Figueroa
 
You, Mr.Eye and MuchoB make some very intelligent observations..My opinion (right or wrong) is that practice, per say, will not yield the results needed to be a world beater!..It takes a blend of natural talent, and an obsession to excel, which I felt I had both!..Personally, I hated practicing, and did almost none..I preferred being in high $$$ action, whether I had a good, or a bad game did not matter!

It was my way of measuring my progress, and it seemed to serve me well!..If it were strictly a matter of how much I practiced, I would have become bored very quickly, and probably would have quit the game!..I cannot argue with his success, but not everyone has the mindset of SVB or Corey Duell.

Practicing to me, was like taking a shower with your clothes on..This may not appeal to everyone, but it worked pretty well for me!..I became as good a player as I was ever going to be, fairly early on!

PS..Not bragging. but I beat a lot of people, who practiced 60 hrs. a week, while I was out having a few beers, and chasing the girls! :D

I agree that the ambition to "excel" plays an important role in how high you go. Everybody has a "plateau" and lots of people never get anywhere near the level they are capable of. That could be due to a variety of reasons...they are satisfied where they are at, they don't have the time to put in, they don't practice properly, they don't have increasingly stiffer competition, they never gamble...etc., etc...

When I first started, I never had the money to pay for more than a couple games, should I lose. Once I lost, I'd have to sit on the sidelines and watch until I had enough to play again. After I got a job in the pool hall, that changed a lot of things. I could play all I wanted and I could play all the better players without fear of losing a couple games and not being able to afford to play anymore.

All the real money games in our town were played in this pool hall, so I got to watch the better players gambling all the time. I would watch them for hours and learn while watching. Depends upon your idea of "fortunate or unfortunate", but I was "fortunate" at my age to be able to learn in a "real" pool hall. I wasn't watching other 12 and 13 year olds banging the balls around with dad looking over their shoulders like in the "family oriented" and "recreation center" pool facilities. I was watching big money games and people coming in off the road from different areas to play.

When I next practiced, I'd try to do the things I saw them do. I wouldn't just bang the balls around on the table all the time. I'd get balls from two tables so I'd have enough and I'd put a ball on each rail diamond and practice going around the table making them without touching another ball with the cue ball. If you touch a ball, you start over.

I'd put a ball on the center spot of the end rail and the cue ball in the center behind the head string and practice cutting it in either corner. If I made it more than a few times in a row, I'd move the object ball wider on the rail to make it an even steeper cut, where I was cutting the ball completely reverse at steeper angles

I would put a ball somewhere and then randomly roll a coin on the table. Once the coin stopped, I'd try to make the object ball and then put the cue ball where the coin was.

I even went so far as drawing the table out in scale dimensions on paper and plotted out shots when I was at home or school. I would divide the table into squares and rectangles and draw lines from each diamond to see where the balls would go on a natural path. There were books at the time, and I had some, but they were expensive and hard to come by. There were no videos then, nor an internet. I made do with what I had or what I observed and figured out on my own with extensive trial and error.

I was obsessed with pool at that age. I was a lot smaller than a lot of guys in our school and the only sports they had were track, tennis, baseball, basketball, and football. I could run fast and did run on my own, but I didn't want to do it as a sport. Tennis and baseball didn't interest me. I liked basketball, but I was too short. I had no interest in football, but I wasn't big enough even if I was. Therefore, pool became something that I could put my interest in and "excel" at, if I put my mind to it and put in the effort. I decided that I would become the best pool player I could and that is what drove me.

Once I got to the level that I could hang with people who used to beat me like a drum, I started being staked by the owner of the pool hall and other people. After I started getting money in my pocket from pool, it became an even greater goal to play even better. As much as I liked money, I think I got more "thrill" from the fact that I won it off an older player who was supposed to drown me. I eventually got to the level that nobody would play me without a spot. The roles had completely reversed.

I actually think you can burn yourself out practicing too much. Maybe not "burn out", but mental fatigue. I don't think your mind should be completely "clogged up" with pool when you play. You need to pay attention to what you are doing and how the game is being played out, but I find if I over "analyze" the game, I have a tendency to "second guess" some of the things my first instinct tells me to do.

I have played enough that I think I see the table well enough to know what I'm going to do in my mind before I ever get to the table when my opponent misses. I know which routes are open and what the percentages are based upon where the balls lie and the difficulties may play out.

The only time I may change my strategy is if I get out of line where I have to play a safe. Usually I will plan to play "to a safe" that I've already figured out. I have played position to get to the safe shot instead of getting position to pocket the ball. These shots are based upon percentages in my head of what I know I can do and what I "think" my opponent can do, based upon how well they shoot (from either observing or playing them before...or knowing what they did against somebody I've played before).

It isn't what your opponent does at the table, it is what you do at the table when it is your turn. If you turn it over, it is on you. If you never get a shot, it wasn't your fault. I think the game in 90% mental, once you have the basic fundamentals down.
 
A natural talent at pool is the guy who, with minimal study and effort, is able to make the OBs go into the pockets and make the CB behave as he expects.

The thing is, I believe that most of us have that ability, but, for most of us, all the body parts don't fall naturally into positions that allow us to effortlessly play at a high level. Each of us can set up in hundreds of different ways with slight but critical variations in head, eye, arm, hands, fingers, legs, and feet. Just think of a car motor and how precisely all the parts need to be machined and in place in relation to each other for the engine to work.

The natural just automatically set ups right and goes.

Lou Figueroa

I agree. Here is a question... what is the correlation between confidence and natural talent? I don't want to get too deep into the subconscious mind here but I'll just say that your body makes many calculations off of what you picture in your head. A talented player can struggle when you can get in his head. A well practiced player who has lots of reps using perfect form can struggle when you get in his head. A confident player finds it easier to relax and line up correctly and when he does this he LOOKS more talented.

Fasted mentioned having parents that played good pool and the kid being good. Is that for sure because of genetics? What if that kid simply watched his dad enjoy the game making it look pretty effortless and he got a high level of confidence that he could do it himself?

I am a big believer that confidence has a huge impact on what we perceive to be talent. That is why I don't prefer to look too much into reasons that I possibly can't do something... like bad genetics.
 
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After playing this game and watching 100s of others for 55 years I believe some have natural ability to play.
I've seen guys that have played for just a couple years run a 100 balls and multiple racks of 9 ball from time to time.
I've seen guys that have played for decades that struggle to run a rack of 14.1 or 9 ball.
You see it in other games and sports.
What separates John Elway,Peyton Manning,Joe Montana and Tom Brady from most of the quarterbacks in history?
Natural ability.

Joe Montana and Tom Brady are not very gifted physically. Both are relatively slow and don't have very strong arms.

A guy like Jeff George, for example, had a much stronger arm but because of his poor attitude he wasn't nearly as successful
 
I agree. Here is a question... what is the correlation between confidence and natural talent? I don't want to get too deep into the subconscious mind here but I'll just say that your body makes many calculations off of what you picture in your head. A talented player can struggle when you can get in his head. A well practiced player who has lots of reps using perfect form can struggle when you get in his head. A confident player finds it easier to relax and line up correctly and when he does this he LOOKS more talented.

Fasted mentioned having parents that played good pool and the kid being good. Is that for sure because of genetics? What if that kid simply watched his dad enjoy the game making it look pretty effortless and he got a high level of confidence that he could do it himself?

I am a big believer that confidence has a huge impact on what we perceive to be talent. That is why I don't prefer to look too much into reasons that I possibly can't do something... like bad genetics.


It's easy to be confident when you're getting the results you expect. IOW, if you get down on a shot and the ball goes to the hole and the CB goes where you expect it to, your confidence builds. And so, as you become more confident you build and do more on each shot, going for more speed, spin, distance, and precision.

I've seen a lot of guys who think confidence comes first and usually end up sorely disappointed.

Lou Figueroa
 
A very good book on this subject is "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. He does several very interesting and detailed case studies of natural talent versus hard work. Website: http://thesportsgene.com/

I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in the topic of sports performance.
 
It's easy to be confident when you're getting the results you expect. IOW, if you get down on a shot and the ball goes to the hole and the CB goes where you expect it to, your confidence builds. And so, as you become more confident you build and do more on each shot, going for more speed, spin, distance, and precision.


Lou Figueroa

Think of confidence like this...

Level 1- "I can't" thinking
Level 2- "I could" thinking
Level 3- "I will" thinking
Level 4 "I can" thinking

Earlier someone mentioned the growth mindset vs the fixed mindset. Those are extremely important when it comes to confidence.

Growth mindset- With effort I will get better
Fixed mindset- We are how we are


Imagine two kids who are just starting to play.

Player 1- Has a confident mindset

Player 2- doesn't


Here is how their learning might go.

Player 1- Starts in the I can phase. This already triggers better subconscious instruction when it comes to lining up, etc. His confidence is likely to help him get close.

But he misses. With a confident mindset he stays in the "I can" level. He tells himself that he missed right and he then aims left with full expectation of making the shot. This belief does wonders for how close he gets. The kids gets close and looks like a natural.

Lets say the kid still misses though and instead of getting close he misses all over the place because his fundamentals are horrible. A kid with a confident mindset will lose the "I can" level but he will only drop to the "I will" level and he seeks a solution. His optimism allows him to pick up learning the fundamentals relatively quickly and with each shot his internal dialog is that of "I can" and "I will"... something like this... "I can hold my arm straight and I will learn how to make this shot." The confident kid remains optimistic and this allows him to pick the game up much easier looking like a natural. His thinking produces positive images and those go a long way in both learning and the motivation to keep after it.


Player 2- For demonstration lets say that player 2 starts in the "I can" level also even though he is not a confident kid. Let's say he gets close too on his first couple of shots. But this kid easily gets frustrated though because he thinks he should make the shot like he sees others doing but he can't. He tries to adjust too and he also is all over the place. Only this unconfident kid gets frustrated even more and his thinking jumps right into the "I can't" level after only a short period of trying. But lets say a high level guy comes over and gives this kid the same advice that he gave the other one because physically they have the same problem. This kid might jump up to the "I could" level if he thinks it might work but being an unconfident kid he still has doubt. Because learning takes a little time he has a few more misses and being the unconfident kid he is he automatically takes his level of think back down to the "I can't" level. On top of that, he read about how genes create talent and he jumps to the conclusion that his genes are wack and he is stuck as untalented. He now has an excuse. He also heard people say "if you can't make balls within the first year you will never be good" and so after a year of playing with poor results due to, what was because of low confidence and doubt, he concludes that he is bad and will never be any good because of his genes, which were never even really the problem. Now this kid is stuck there in the "I can't" level for a very long time. People offer him advice and he tries it but he with doubt that it will work because "his genes suck", so the advice never works. It's a self-fullfiling prophecy but to him it only reinforces his belief that he was cursed with "the bad genes". That doubt creates images in his mind and those images instruct his subconscious on what to do, so even with good advice and lots of effort he will still struggle because his confidence needs some work.

This is a very brief explanation but I hope it's clear.
 
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A comparison of Floyds hard work, dedication, and belief... to the formula for skill development.



The formula was

Skill developent = time x itensity x quality governed by talent (which is affected by belief)

Floyd is all about hard work (intensity), dedication (time), and e also speaks a lot about having a good team to train with. (quality)

That is the formula,.





Sugar Ray Leonard said in his video, "Now me to beat a guy like Marvin Haglar required me to do things twice as hard and twice as long. So in training camp instead of me doing the regular 3 minute rounds and 1 minute rest, I did 5 minute rounds with 30 seconds rest. I flew guys in from all over the country who would go for it."
https://youtu.be/wFrhPZZhsUk?t=816


time x intensity x quality

Sound familiar?
 
What makes a pool players natural talent? Is it just better hand eye coordination? I see people that have a natural ability to make balls. I do not have this and I envy people that do. I have seen a few people that could run out often after only playing for 9 months. Why couldn't I have this. To me, no amount of practice can over come natural abilities. Am I wrong to think this way?
To me, you definitely need natural talent if you want to be at the TOP of the sport. You also need some, but a lesser degree of natural talent to play at the "A" level.

Knowledge of all of the different types of shots, strokes, systems, and tricks of the trade is also very important to take a player to the "A" level and beyond. Also, the knowledge of shot selection to increase percentages of running out is also critical to becoming a great player (A and beyond).

After that, table time is what is important. This is a muscle memory game, so the more balls you hit the better. As far as practice goes, I think that I agree with what others have said, if doing drills will bore you to death -- you better find some other method. I like what Alex P said, you need to at least work on your weaknesses. I started recording myself playing, which really seemed to have helped a lot.
 
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Watching the promo for andre ward vs sergey kovalev.
Kovalev's coach said there were many guys in the gym with more talent. But nobody had his work ethic. Determination has plenty to do with getting good at something.
 
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