Need Help...Radar Gun...
- Thread starter X Breaker
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They sell the device for 43 bucks including software. I am assuming you need the daisy chain for it to register speed. If you could break apart a couple of those laser pointers and mount them in a triangular piece that fit under the rail on one side of the table and rip apart a couple of these units (which I figure is a photocell) and mount it in another triangular piece you would be in like flint... Really I think it could be done for less than a hundred bucks... I would consider trying it but I am in the process of putting a new roof on my house so I don't have any time right now.Fred Agnir said:
JV
drivermaker
Banned
td873 said:
td....I just had a phone conversation with the high-tech buddha at the Bushnell Corporation and he said that the Speedster or Velocity model would work but, as you said, whether it's Bushnell, Jugs, or any other model or manufacturer, a calculation has to be done to get an accurate reading based on the angle in which the gun is being held. (as much in height above the oncoming CB as well as side) since it's calibrated at 0 degrees. Normally, the readout on the unit will be LESS than actual but the percentage based on the angle needs to be factored in to get a true reading.
Have you ever attempted to get a reading with NO balls racked and only the CB being smashed into the end rail with the unit at table level, (actually only a couple of degrees higher while resting on a tripod or end rail)?
He thought the new Velocity model might be better because it's more durable than the Speedster, although almost twice the size.
Thank you very much everyone.
Let me see if I have gotten this down correctly.
1. If the gun is placed in front of, or right behind of the breaker, and is held as level as possible, then it will produce the most accurate result.
2. If the gun is elevated at a slight angle, it will read less than the actual speed.
3. Nevertheless, if I have the gun on a tripod and record the break from the same elevated angle and distance for all the players in my sample, I can still have a resonably accurate comparison of their break speeds.
I have a few more questions:
1. Can I calibrate my gun so it could actually read a higher speed than the actual speed?
2. Are you focusing on the cueball when it leaves the cue, or the cue ball when it strikes the 1 ball, when you obtain your reading?
3. Should I move the radar gun depending on where the breakers break from?
If I focus on the moment when the ball leaves the cue, I think I may have to move my gun around and it could be difficult to keep the same angle and distance for all the players that way...
If I focus on the cueball at the moment when it strikes the pack, will the reading be accurate if the cue ball jumps up, when it strikes the 1 ball?
Thomas, does your gun come with a tripod, it cannot read to 1 decimal place, can it?
I found this company which rents out radar guns and related equipments, http://www.stalkerradar.com/rental.shtml, have any of you heard of them?
Obviously, lots of you have been thinking about this a lot and is quite knowledgable on the subject. All your suggestions/comment are very much appreciated.
I am thinking about using it in an application similar to that of the Sardo's in the US open and Vegas, I need something reliable, durable, and consistent.
I will be looking forward to your reply. Once again, thank you very much.
Richard
Let me see if I have gotten this down correctly.
1. If the gun is placed in front of, or right behind of the breaker, and is held as level as possible, then it will produce the most accurate result.
2. If the gun is elevated at a slight angle, it will read less than the actual speed.
3. Nevertheless, if I have the gun on a tripod and record the break from the same elevated angle and distance for all the players in my sample, I can still have a resonably accurate comparison of their break speeds.
I have a few more questions:
1. Can I calibrate my gun so it could actually read a higher speed than the actual speed?
2. Are you focusing on the cueball when it leaves the cue, or the cue ball when it strikes the 1 ball, when you obtain your reading?
3. Should I move the radar gun depending on where the breakers break from?
If I focus on the moment when the ball leaves the cue, I think I may have to move my gun around and it could be difficult to keep the same angle and distance for all the players that way...
If I focus on the cueball at the moment when it strikes the pack, will the reading be accurate if the cue ball jumps up, when it strikes the 1 ball?
Thomas, does your gun come with a tripod, it cannot read to 1 decimal place, can it?
I found this company which rents out radar guns and related equipments, http://www.stalkerradar.com/rental.shtml, have any of you heard of them?
Obviously, lots of you have been thinking about this a lot and is quite knowledgable on the subject. All your suggestions/comment are very much appreciated.
I am thinking about using it in an application similar to that of the Sardo's in the US open and Vegas, I need something reliable, durable, and consistent.
I will be looking forward to your reply. Once again, thank you very much.
Richard
One more question...and this is very unlikely to be my last one... 
When you folks enter the breaking contest, will you apprecaite to see your break speed on a big electronic display board, much like the kind used by the police to display car speeds on the highway?
Has anyone worked with such type of equipment before?
Richard
When you folks enter the breaking contest, will you apprecaite to see your break speed on a big electronic display board, much like the kind used by the police to display car speeds on the highway?
Has anyone worked with such type of equipment before?
Richard
That makes sense. As I mentioned above, with a lower reading on the machine, I add back some of the calculated error to get an approximated true reading (i.e, if the machine reads 20, with 15% error, I add back on 15% of 20 (3MPH), rather than the actual 20/.85 = 3.52MPH. Just makes math easier at the pool hall)drivermaker said:
Yes (but not on a tripod). I really couldn't tell if this made a difference, since a speed was still registered. It wasn't any easier or harder to get a reading without the rack there (the rack being there has no effect on the machine catching the cue ball if you are aiming at the right spot). Also, being a couple inches above the table doesn't really affect the overall reading. The cue ball travels 4 diamonds (about 40") down the table. If you are 2 inches above the playing surface, you are only adding 0.12% error to the calculation. Even a foot above only causes 4.2% error... Two feet above, however, creates another 14.25% error.drivermaker said:
-td
Johnny "V" said:
Yes, it can be done for less than $100, assuming you know what you are doing. Were I to build such a contraption it would sell for $400. I have used this concept since 1981 starting with a speedometer/odometer for a super-mileage vehicle, then tachometers, and more recently for a golf shaft frequency meter. It's pretty simple, assuming you know the trick to get the display to read whatever units you desire (m/s, mph, etc) (no processor required)
It could be built for good precision, it's accuracy would require calibration.Dave
All correct.nipponbilliards said:
1. I don't believe so, it's all programmed and solid state. Just measure your angles and use their cosines to add back in the error.nipponbilliards said:
2. While the ball is in travel. If you point at the tip or at the pack, you might get false readings. Point at a spot between the two.
3. Yes. Try to use the same angles for all breakers if you are doing a comparison.
My machine does not measure to decimals. But when you take an average over a large number of breaks, you can still feel fairly comforable with the results. It does not come with a tripod.nipponbilliards said:
The rental is virtually the same technology that I use, except it has more bells and whistles. Looks good if you want to show the results on a big board. Mine can't do that without modification. However, mine was only $140.00 - plus it's light, easy to use, and I don't have to send it back
Good luck,
-td
td873 said:All correct.
1. I don't believe so, it's all programmed and solid state. Just measure your angles and use their cosines to add back in the error.
2. While the ball is in travel. If you point at the tip or at the pack, you might get false readings. Point at a spot between the two.
3. Yes. Try to use the same angles for all breakers if you are doing a comparison.
My machine does not measure to decimals. But when you take an average over a large number of breaks, you can still feel fairly comforable with the results. It does not come with a tripod.
The rental is virtually the same technology that I use, except it has more bells and whistles. Looks good if you want to show the results on a big board. Mine can't do that without modification. However, mine was only $140.00 - plus it's light, easy to use, and I don't have to send it back
Good luck,
-td
The cosine is the horizontal vector component, is that correct?
So, I guess it will be alright if I focus at the same point between the cue ball and the rack for all the players--if I focus on a point closer to the head string, I can get a slightly higher reading than if I use a point closer to the rack, although I doubt the difference would be significant.
Since player break from many different spots, which points do you pick as your reference?
Thank you.
Richard
The cosine effect applies twice here, once for the horizontal component, and once for the vertical component. [You are creating error in two planes, X and Y] If you don't change the height of your gun, you should have the same vertical error component for every breaker. I always point at the center spot of the table for every breaker - my location along the back of the table might be different though.nipponbilliards said:
Note: I think that if you point the gun closer to the headstring, you will get a slightly LOWER reading than actual. The reason for this is that pointing closer to the headstring creates a larger angle of incidence from from the ball to the gun. The cosine of this angle is the accuracy of the reading. The bigger the angle, the less accurate the reading.
Cos(17)= 95.63% accurate
Cos(22)= 92.72% accurate
Cos(30)= 86.60% accurate
This is also the way that the horizontal component works. The more angle between you and the breaker, the more error is created in the reading.
-td
Didn't Bob Byrne (with some others) take off the end rail, measure the distance on the floor that the ball traveled past the end of the slate, and then figured the speed?
Seems like I read this in BD, but my memory may, again, be playing tricks on me.
Not as much fun a smashing the rack, but cheaper anyway.
Jeff Livingston
Seems like I read this in BD, but my memory may, again, be playing tricks on me.
Not as much fun a smashing the rack, but cheaper anyway.
Jeff Livingston
drivermaker
Banned
nipponbilliards said:
The Big Buddha at Bushnell said that you wouldn't get as accurate a read from behind because arm swing and the cue itself would be picked up and distort the results. You don't get anywhere near as much from the front.
Screw where the breakers break from. This is a "BREAK SPEED CONTEST", not a "how many balls you can make on the break for a runout" contest. Make ALL of them break from the same place. There's no reason for a contest like this why they can't break right from the head spot in order that you don't have to jump around like a jack rabbit with the gun.
The Buddha did say there can also be distortion at times from the rack balls spreading out.
While at a recent siminar Jerry Breiseth and Mark Wilson both had radar guns. When George Breedlove hit one break both had their guns on, one if front and one in back, they both registered 37.7mph. I would be surprised if both were on the exact same vertical and horizontal placements. Not saying what has been written here is not true, just thought it was interesting.
I also noticed that several times Jerry actually layed the gun on the table beside the cueball and then picked it up right after the break. Wouldnt this be the most accurate reading?
I also noticed that several times Jerry actually layed the gun on the table beside the cueball and then picked it up right after the break. Wouldnt this be the most accurate reading?
woody_968 said:
Ah, 37.7 mph is nothing! I'm pretty sure George was impressed/intimidated by my 15 mph break!
drivermaker
Banned
woody_968 said:
Do you recall who the manufacturer was and what model was used? If not, can you get in touch with either or both of them to find out?
chefjeff said:
Jeff,
Not a very good way to measure speed, or even compare breaks. I believe it has been shown that the cue ball slows down (someone correct me if they know differently) even before hitting the one-ball on a power break. By the time the cue ball reaches the absent foot rail area, surely it has slowed further. Wouldn't the amount of slowing depend on the amount of forward or reverse spin placed on the cue ball?? Too many variables for me - I like the idea of a radar gun with fixed placement. Ceebee used to sell one on his website, but I believe it had problems with fluorescent light, so he wouldn't sell me one until the bugs are fixed.