Need help with 3 rails w/high inside

madjammer

madjammer

Registered
Been shooting some rail shot drills and recently developed a problem that is leaving me baffled. Object ball frozen to rail one to two diamonds from pocket shooting between 25-35 degrees on most shots. The videos I've seen of high level players doing this usually has the cue ball hitting around the middle diamond on the short rail, then somewhere around the second diamond on the long rail opposite of the object ball. When I shoot the shot using high inside my cue ball path is more towards the opposite corner pocket or around the third diamond, and the first diamond in the long rail. I'm usually making the ball. Am I using the wrong spin to (more/less top and/or inside) or am I hitting the ball too thin or thick? 10:30 & 2:30 is about where I'm cueing.
 
You don't need high ball on that shot, aim center or even slightly below center, hit it smooth and let the spin do all the work.
 
It is common to not be hitting the point on the cueball where you think you are.

Try this shot using a striped ball as the cueball, orient the number (I prefer to use the 11 ball) so it is facing you as you address the shot. When you complete the shot look for a chalk mark on the ball. Compare this mark to where you intended to hit the cueball, and what the path of the CB was after the shot.

Realize that everyones stroke is different, so you must work on this shot varying the amount of sidespin with how much of the ball you hit on the rail. Small differences will lead to different results on a shot like this.

Good rolls.

AJM
 
victorl said:
You don't need high ball on that shot, aim center or even slightly below center, hit it smooth and let the spin do all the work.
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Thanks for the tip. I will try that tomorrow night. I just assumed I needed follow on the shot to reach the short rail quicker.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
It is common to not be hitting the point on the cueball where you think you are.

Try this shot using a striped ball as the cueball, orient the number (I prefer to use the 11 ball) so it is facing you as you address the shot. When you complete the shot look for a chalk mark on the ball. Compare this mark to where you intended to hit the cueball, and what the path of the CB was after the shot.

Realize that everyones stroke is different, so you must work on this shot varying the amount of sidespin with how much of the ball you hit on the rail. Small differences will lead to different results on a shot like this.

Good rolls.

AJM
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply, I will test with a stripe or my Jim Rempe ball. I've gotten fairly decent with delivering the tip where I intend but it's definitely possible I'm doing something different on this shot. Definitely struggling with the route.
 
How hard you hit this shot has a big effect on the outcome. On the super fast tables the pros use they hardly have to hit the ball, meaning the topspin takes sooner making it hit the short rail where it does. Try hitting it softer.
 
If I'm reading the OP's post correctly, he's saying that the cb is traveling too wide off the first rail before it hits the second rail. That sounds like he's not hitting the cb high enough.

Make sure you're hitting the ball where you aim, and if you are, aim higher.
 
Chuck Fields said:
This.

Make sure you are hitting ball first. It seems wrong until you see it work.
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I don't think that's such a big factor with a ball frozen to the rail if the shooter is using topspin with inside. The hit has to be nearly simultaneous---rail and ball--- for the ball to go in the pocket. If the ob was off the rail a bit, then it's a different story.

However, it becomes a bigger factor if the shooter is hitting the ball lower with inside.
 
madjammer said:
When shooting off the right long rail for example I'm using close to maximum top left.
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Sorry for the delay. I was busy.

You did not say what cue ball & that makes a difference.

But... I agree with Ms. Crimi.

It's a simple matter. You're using a combination of 'spin', top & side.

If the ball is not going 'forward' enough, then hit higher.

You may need to hit at 11:00 or maybe at 11:25. It's a feel thing that comes with experience.

The reason I asked about the cue ball is that the Red Circle Ball usually needs more top as it has less momentum due to being a bit light & also 'bouncier'.

Good Luck with it, but just play around with it til you get the feel for it.

Best Wishes.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Be sure you're not hitting rail first.

pj
chgo
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FranCrimi said:
I don't think that's such a big factor with a ball frozen to the rail if the shooter is using topspin with inside. The hit has to be nearly simultaneous---rail and ball--- for the ball to go in the pocket. If the ob was off the rail a bit, then it's a different story.

However, it becomes a bigger factor if the shooter is hitting the ball lower with inside.
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It may be unlikely that it's a rail-first hit, but if it is then all of the sidespin is taken out of play until the CB hits the 2nd rail, and only follow is available to change the angle off the 1st rail.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It may be unlikely that it's a rail-first hit, but if it is then all of the sidespin is taken out of play until the CB hits the 2nd rail, and only follow is available to change the angle off the 1st rail.

pj
chgo
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Top inside would be necessary of course. Not just topspin.

I think that for a rail-first hit on a frozen shot to be any kind of a factor at the 25-35 degree angle the op mentioned, the hit would have to be low inside. That widens the angle of the cb off the rail, which could allow the shooter to hit rail-first slightly farther behind the ob than with he would with topspin. But even then, it's really close.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Sorry for the delay. I was busy.

You did not say what cue ball & that makes a difference.

But... I agree with Ms. Crimi.

It's a simple matter. You're using a combination of 'spin', top & side.

If the ball is not going 'forward' enough, then hit higher.

You may need to hit at 11:00 or maybe at 11:25. It's a feel thing that comes with experience.

The reason I asked about the cue ball is that the Red Circle Ball usually needs more top as it has less momentum due to being a bit light & also 'bouncier'.

Good Luck with it, but just play around with it til you get the feel for it.

Best Wishes.
Click to expand...
Sorry when you asked what cue ball I thought you were referring to spin not the actual type of cue ball. It's an Aramith measles. I had some improvements on the shot tonight. The path I was originally trying was a fairly long route. By shortening up the target position I'm getting a more consistent result. My theory is shooting with the firmer stroke was deflecting more than I was allowing for, causing a thinner hit? Going to try again tomorrow night and if all goes well I'll slowly start increasing the distance on the target position again. Thanks for the replies everyone!
 
madjammer said:
Sorry when you asked what cue ball I thought you were referring to spin not the actual type of cue ball. It's an Aramith measles. I had some improvements on the shot tonight. The path I was originally trying was a fairly long route. By shortening up the target position I'm getting a more consistent result. My theory is shooting with the firmer stroke was deflecting more than I was allowing for, causing a thinner hit? Going to try again tomorrow night and if all goes well I'll slowly start increasing the distance on the target position again. Thanks for the replies everyone!
Click to expand...

I'd like to add to my earlier reply that it would, to me, also depend on where one would the have the CB come to rest & how one is really trying to move the CB.

So in trying to move the ball around the table, are you trying to drive it with the help of some spin or are you trying to spin it around the table. Which of those would dictate, to me, at what speed & where on the ball I would hit the ball, as the result of spin is dependent on the spin to speed ratio.

Like I said, play around with it until you get a feel for it. Hit at 3:00 at different speeds & then hit at 11:00 or 11:30 with different speeds & note the results. Also there are at least 3 clocks on the CB. The inner clock, the outer clock, & the one the middle. Some individuals have 4 or even 5. Play around with that too.

Good Luck & Best Wishes.

PS You mentioned squirt/CB deflection. You should know that the squirt direction is directly through the center of the cue ball. For instance if hitting at 11:00 the squirt direction is toward 5:00 & down into the table. If hitting at 9:00 it is toward 3:00. So, the net in the flat horizontal direction will be different for each.
 
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FranCrimi said:
Top inside would be necessary of course. Not just topspin.

I think that for a rail-first hit on a frozen shot to be any kind of a factor at the 25-35 degree angle the op mentioned, the hit would have to be low inside. That widens the angle of the cb off the rail, which could allow the shooter to hit rail-first slightly farther behind the ob than with he would with topspin. But even then, it's really close.
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Sorry, I don't get this response. My point is that hitting rail first means the side spin would not help change the angle of the CB going from the first rail to the second - it would be entirely up to the top spin to do that. For example, with only sidespin a rail first hit would send the CB almost straight across the table, maybe missing the second rail entirely.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, I don't get this response. My point is that hitting rail first means the side spin would not help change the angle of the CB going from the first rail to the second - it would be entirely up to the top spin to do that. For example, with only sidespin a rail first hit would send the CB almost straight across the table, maybe missing the second rail entirely.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

That's alright. I didn't understand myself either. :)

I think it's different with a frozen ball because the rail first hit is practically simultaneous-- rail and ball -- that is, if you want to pocket the ball. As soon as you move the ob off the rail a bit, I agree.

Try the shot with extreme high outside instead of inside with a frozen ball. I think you'll see that the path off the first rail does change some.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
...hitting rail first means the side spin would not help change the angle of the CB going from the first rail to the second - it would be entirely up to the top spin to do that. For example, with only sidespin a rail first hit would send the CB almost straight across the table, maybe missing the second rail entirely.
Click to expand...
FranCrimi:
I think it's different with a frozen ball because the rail first hit is practically simultaneous-- rail and ball -- that is, if you want to pocket the ball. As soon as you move the ob off the rail a bit, I agree.
Click to expand...
I can see that, depending on how close to simultaneous the hit is. I think there's a (small) range of possibilities because of the way the CB sinks into the rail and then rebounds, traveling along the rail (a short distance) as it does that.

If the CB hits the rail close enough to the OB so the CB is still going into (compressing) the rail when it hits the OB, then the OB has time to get out of the way before the CB rebounds, giving the CB enough room to rebound at the spin-changed angle.

But if the CB is already rebounding from the rail (uncompressing) when it hits the OB, then the spin has already changed the angle - but the OB blocks that spin-changed path, caroming the CB cross table with only top spin to move it forward.

I've tried the shot several times since we've been talking about it, and have gotten both results. Most times I got good angle change with the spin, I assume because that happens with both a ball first hit and a nearly ball first hit, whereas the carom angle only happens with a not-so-nearly ball first hit.

Thanks for helping me think that through more carefully.

pj
chgo
 
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