Need help with my break

8

8onthebreak

THE WORLD IS YOURS
Silver Member
I feel like I have always had an "average break"...I recently measured my break speed and it was in the 19.2-19.6 mph range.

That's with using my NORMAL STROKE...head down, low head, sighting down cue, minimal shoulder drop, mostly elbow and no wrist action...as far as I know. Again...I break with my normal shooting stroke.

I recently looked thru some break instruction and it appears that many strong breakers tend to use hip thrust, arm leverage, shoulder forward and lunge...not to mention wrist"flick"...

I feel like I'm in the stone ages still using my regular stroke for the break...I just focus on accuracy and seem to have decent results.

I would like to get to the point where I'm breaking at 25+ MPH...
I tried some different things tonight, and I seemed to go backwards with most alterations I attempted...

the hip thrust slowed me down to 17-18 mph. I just couldn't get the timing right.

The lunge was a fail. miscues and mayhem.

The flick...faget about it.

The More upright leverage swing was a winner adding .3-1.0 mph.

He shoulder in and leverage swing was a noticeable winner ranging from 19.6 to my highest recordable 21.2mph

I want to get to 24 mph. With young kids and an extremely demanding career practice is limited...

What advice can AZ give me on improving my speed without spending 100 hours in the trenches?

Where does 20 mph stack up with the as crowd? What's your break speed? What's your secret?
 
8onthebreak said:
I feel like I have always had an "average break"...I recently measured my break speed and it was in the 19.2-19.6 mph range.

That's with using my NORMAL STROKE...head down, low head, sighting down cue, minimal shoulder drop, mostly elbow and no wrist action...as far as I know. Again...I break with my normal shooting stroke.

I recently looked thru some break instruction and it appears that many strong breakers tend to use hip thrust, arm leverage, shoulder forward and lunge...not to mention wrist"flick"...

I feel like I'm in the stone ages still using my regular stroke for the break...I just focus on accuracy and seem to have decent results.

I would like to get to the point where I'm breaking at 25+ MPH...
I tried some different things tonight, and I seemed to go backwards with most alterations I attempted...

the hip thrust slowed me down to 17-18 mph. I just couldn't get the timing right.

The lunge was a fail. miscues and mayhem.

The flick...faget about it.

The More upright leverage swing was a winner adding .3-1.0 mph.

He shoulder in and leverage swing was a noticeable winner ranging from 19.6 to my highest recordable 21.2mph

I want to get to 24 mph. With young kids and an extremely demanding career practice is limited...

What advice can AZ give me on improving my speed without spending 100 hours in the trenches?

Where does 20 mph stack up with the as crowd? What's your break speed? What's your secret?
Click to expand...

arm leverage is extremely critical, looks like you tried and raised it up a bit, also bring your butt arm forward about 4 to 5" beyond the balance point, such that your elbow is about 60 degrees. follow through all the way watch your knuckles wear a good glove to protect your hand slamming the table edge.
Other factor, if your hit is not 100% head on the one the sound will be less
Test your recording device with known players that have high speed break to be sure it is good and calibrated.
 
I'm in the exact same boat. Except worse. I used my normal stroke with no body movement for my break, all arm action. Breaks were 17.5-18 mph. Accuracy was ok but I never made a f&*$#%ing ball.

Went to Tony M. for some instruction, and he really helped me with the power part. Got to the point where I could at least make 20 mph, and a few in the 21-22+ range.

But it's a completely new break and I struggle with the "athletic motion" a bit, accuracy feels out of reach. I have to train myself not to go back to the old break. Also for whatever reason, I cannot break from the line. Only with a rail bridge.

I also got a little instruction from a local pro, Brian Deska... nice guy. Anway he advised me to make this elevated bridge, and angle the butt a little bit to get that cue ball a little airborne. This is how he gets that pop'n'hop action when ten ball breaking ala shane, and he makes the 2nd-row balls all the time.

I can't seem to get it, and I especially can't from the line, honey boo boo could hit this break better.

Anyway... I'll try to share the stuff I learned on improving power, though you might want to consider finding an instructor too.

- Get your tip right up next to the cue ball when you line up, there shouldn't be an inch of air between the tip and the ball when you're at your neutral state (forearm going straight up and down). More like 1mm of air.

- Choke up on the back hand, like to the front of the wrap (YMMV) ...so that your new "neutral" has the forearm bent forward a fair bit instead of in a typical relaxed position where it's just up-and-down.

This is actually contrary to the popular idea that you should move it back.

The reason for this is hard to put on paper but basically, you're gonna lunge forward. When your forward swing naturally reaches the ball... if you had your back hand at its normal position, you're gonna make contact before the forearm managed to get forward enough. It won't be vertical, it will still be angled back a little. If you could imagine yourself frozen at the moment of impact like this... To get it vertical, your hand would have to move forward without the stick moving forward. So that's what you're going to do before you even start breaking.

- Some people talk about the lunge as if there's no twisting, you just launch off your back foot. Others talk about rotating the hips into it like a punch. There's some good info in joe tucker's racking secrets II about this. He really should call it breaking secrets.

Anyway, I think no rotation is a lot more logical for guys like us. So basically, bend your back leg and kind of hunker down a bit. Then as you swing, you're going to stand up, and push forward off that back leg... creating the lunge. You can let the tip come up or drive it down into the table, whatever is more comfortable. Focus on finishing with the tip WAAAAY forward. Like almost try for the center spot.

With your grip forward you're gonna feel like you really have some extra leverage on the cue and can demolish whitey, you just need to get your body in a position where you aren't impacting too soon (forearm back a bit from the vertical plane) or too late (forearm starting to bend forward and lose energy). All of which is another way of saying timing.

Let me know if any of this works out for you. If I could boil it down to one revelation, it's choking up the back hand, which is the opposite of what I grew up learning.
 
Before you go through all those "athletic" efforts, I'd propose you try something a bit different. What you're looking for in power might be stated in a different way. I believe you're looking to impart the maximum amount of energy into the rack. Arguably, that can be achieved by hitting the head ball 100% straight on. What you would gain in energy by increasing your CB speed by a couple of miles per hour would be completely offset and then some by the energy lost by the increased effort causing you to be off center on your head ball hit by even a 1/8" of an inch. Further, if you're off to one side or another, you're not going to squat the CB in the center of the table.

Prove it to yourself (or disprove it). Set up some racks and instead of focusing on power, focus 100% on accuracy. For simplicity's sake and to prove the point, set up a full rack and break from the center, straight head on. Set your primary objective as hitting the head ball so dead square that you squat the CB dead center of the table. Try that for 25 to 30 racks and make note of the results (balls sank and ball spread) for the times you achieved the perfect break accuracy wise (CB in center of table).

Now do try 25 to 30 more racks but crank things up where your primary objective is power. Make notes of results but also include notes on the number of times you scratch or end up stymied because of bad CB position.

I think it would also be useful to try a similar experiment but go for the 2nd row break.

I'm of the opinion that no amount of power can overcome poor accuracy on the break. I've performed the experiment I described myself and found the accuracy route was significantly more effective than the power technique. I was amazed at how much more often I could get the 8 ball moving with a very accurate 2nd row break versus a more powerful but less accurate 2nd row break. Now don't get me wrong, if I could hit the CB 30 mph without compromising accuracy, I doubt that I would be cranking it down. I believe a 14 to 20 mph break can be very, very effective if you have dead nutz accuracy. Watch the lady professionals play some time. The Black Widow has a great 9 ball break and she certainly isn't hitting it 24 mph.
 
I like to aim extremely low on the CB to the point where if I hit the ball it would be a miscue. When I actually start the motion, I use an extreme elbow drop and follow through. This makes the tip raise and hit higher than where I'm aiming, usually at center or 1/2 a tip below center.

I can usually get the CB to pop and stay in the middle of the table while making 1 to 3 balls. I've got to the point where I'm really good at it by breaking from the rail, but when I try it from the box, I'm about 60% to get it to work perfect.
 
Hate to point out the obvious, but doing hammer curls is the best way to improve your break. Do them with lighter weights. Warm up at moderate speeds. For the real workout, lift the weight as quickly as possible. It teaches your arm to snap to full speed quickly.

Aside from that, concentrate on hitting it accurately. An accurate hit on the rack is worth a couple of mph.
 
8onthebreak said:
I would like to get to the point where I'm breaking at 25+ MPH...
Click to expand...

Speed is not the answer, precision is the answer.

There are several point on the head ball, one of these rolls the head balltowards the side pocket, one of these rolls the wing ball to the corner pocket, and a couple of others roll a particulatr ball towards a particular pocket. These spots are smaller than 1mm in margin of error.

You hit the head ball at the right <tiny> spot and the particular ball has an excellent chance of going in. A lot better chance than a big powerful hit at some other spot on the head ball.

The break is more about precision than power.
 
Timing is everything with the break. You want maximum power with minimal tension.

Take the cue back in slow motion and gather yourself, then pause at the top. Slowly start forward and unwind like a softball pitcher from the bottom up. This slight delay at the top gives the slower lower body a chance to unwind and allows your upper body to generate speed with minimal muscular tension.
 
MitchAlsup said:
Speed is not the answer, precision is the answer.

There are several point on the head ball, one of these rolls the head balltowards the side pocket, one of these rolls the wing ball to the corner pocket, and a couple of others roll a particulatr ball towards a particular pocket. These spots are smaller than 1mm in margin of error.

You hit the head ball at the right <tiny> spot and the particular ball has an excellent chance of going in. A lot better chance than a big powerful hit at some other spot on the head ball.

The break is more about precision than power.
Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with you, the poster did not ask for advice on how to break more accurately, or what constitutes a good break. He asked for advice on power. If two people have identical accuracy on the break, but one has access to a 25 mph break while the other can only do 20...obviously the guy with more power has more options. Some tables simply won't give up a ball on the break as easily with softer speed, but it goes right in at higher speeds. Also, for 8 ball, breaking for the head ball...more power generally produces better results, to a point, assuming relatively equal accuracy.

If you can hit the ball semi accurate at 25, then it is *easy* to hit it at 20. Easy typically translates to accurate (or at least provides that potential). In other words, the more effortless you can make your 20 mph break, the more you can really stroke it, pop the head ball good, play position on the one ball, plant the cue ball, etc. The person that tops out at 20 mph is basically trying their hardest to achieve those same results.

Food for thought,

KMRUNOUT
 
nobcitypool said:
Before you go through all those "athletic" efforts, I'd propose you try something a bit different. What you're looking for in power might be stated in a different way. I believe you're looking to impart the maximum amount of energy into the rack. Arguably, that can be achieved by hitting the head ball 100% straight on. What you would gain in energy by increasing your CB speed by a couple of miles per hour would be completely offset and then some by the energy lost by the increased effort causing you to be off center on your head ball hit by even a 1/8" of an inch. Further, if you're off to one side or another, you're not going to squat the CB in the center of the table.

Prove it to yourself (or disprove it). Set up some racks and instead of focusing on power, focus 100% on accuracy. For simplicity's sake and to prove the point, set up a full rack and break from the center, straight head on. Set your primary objective as hitting the head ball so dead square that you squat the CB dead center of the table. Try that for 25 to 30 racks and make note of the results (balls sank and ball spread) for the times you achieved the perfect break accuracy wise (CB in center of table).

Now do try 25 to 30 more racks but crank things up where your primary objective is power. Make notes of results but also include notes on the number of times you scratch or end up stymied because of bad CB position.

I think it would also be useful to try a similar experiment but go for the 2nd row break.

I'm of the opinion that no amount of power can overcome poor accuracy on the break. I've performed the experiment I described myself and found the accuracy route was significantly more effective than the power technique. I was amazed at how much more often I could get the 8 ball moving with a very accurate 2nd row break versus a more powerful but less accurate 2nd row break. Now don't get me wrong, if I could hit the CB 30 mph without compromising accuracy, I doubt that I would be cranking it down. I believe a 14 to 20 mph break can be very, very effective if you have dead nutz accuracy. Watch the lady professionals play some time. The Black Widow has a great 9 ball break and she certainly isn't hitting it 24 mph.
Click to expand...

I like your post, it make a lot of sense. I add make sure to have loose grip and follow all the way until cue tip get close to the rack if you can.
Know your cue pivot point so if your tip hits left or right side of the CB cue will still go straight.
 
Some of the points in this video brought my break up a ton.

This vid has been out for a while, but if you haven't seen it, its must see tv on power breaking.

I could watch the first few minutes over and over...the absurdity makes me lol everytime.

Colins power break instruction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U
 
8onthebreak said:
...I just focus on accuracy and seem to have decent results.
Click to expand...

And you always will. Without this all of the fancy break techniques are meaningless. What good is a 300 yard drive if it is in the trees all the time?

The break is still a shot. Setup a long straight-in shot. Shoot it in as hard as you can. That is your maximum break speed. It doesn't matter if you can hit the cue ball 100 mph. If you can't hit what you are aiming at, it is useless.

Depending on your break style, you may not need to be that precise. The difference between a full ball and half ball hit is huge on the break. So, you will have to be accurate to within a quarter ball hit or your results are going to be all over the place.

How much precision are you willing to sacrifice for how much increase in power? Results are a bell curve. Don't think you can grip it and rip it and accuracy will catch up later. It won't. Stay within defined boundaries of precision and gradually increase power.
 
Work on the basics....

8onthebreak,

I sent you a PM. I've worked through the same issue for a couple years and I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you do 2 things: buy a BreakRak, and work on the basic fundamentals of your break before you try adding body movement, a more upright stance, or any of the other techniques that many power breakers use. SVB is generally regarded as the best breaker of his generation. He generally breaks in the 23-24 MPH range and it looks and sounds completely monstrous. He simply has a terrific blend of good power and the purest hit among modern pros. His body movement is very deceptive, because that really doesn't add much (if any) power to his delivery. If you watch him closely, he almost completely stops his body before he starts his cue moving forward, and he really doesn't swing that hard. The purity of his hit on the cue ball and his accuracy on the 1 ball are the biggest factors. Watch Archer as well. Even with his extreme follow through, the majority of his body movement actually occurs AFTER he strikes the cue ball (in order to dissipate the speed/power applied through the cue).

Trying to produce power will often cause you to move your eyes and not keep your head stationary, and those things are the most critical. I've found (for me, at least) that concentrating too much on individual techniques can be counterproductive. Focus on the fundamental concepts: strike the cue ball very close to the center (ANY spin will reduce speed); develop rhythm and timing on you practice strokes; and accelerate through the cue ball with complete confidence and conviction. About the only technical change that seems to universally work is moving your stroking hand farther up the wrap. It really doesn't have much to do with leverage, but with muscle anatomy. Your bicep simply produces more power when it's in a more closed position (think about doing a dumbbell curl; the most difficult position is when your arm is extended, and you're home free once you get past 90 degrees).

The BreakRak will allow you to hit more breaks in 15 minutes than you normally would in 45 minutes racking the balls each time. Otherwise, get a buddy to rack for you while you're practicing. Best of luck!
 
One more thing....

1 more thing: use a decent break cue/shaft. A dedicated breaker is certainly not necessary, but I've had a couple playing shafts that were simply too "mushy" to break well with. Some shafts will fatigue over time as well, particularly if you break a lot with it. My son's BK2 shaft was like a wet noodle after about 8 months. Bought a new shaft and his break power increased 10% immediately.
 
Otterman said:
1 more thing: use a decent break cue/shaft. A dedicated breaker is certainly not necessary, but I've had a couple playing shafts that were simply too "mushy" to break well with. Some shafts will fatigue over time as well, particularly if you break a lot with it. My son's BK2 shaft was like a wet noodle after about 8 months. Bought a new shaft and his break power increased 10% immediately.
Click to expand...

No problem on cue, due to my cue buying habits, Ive gone from a bk2 to a Carmeli 1/1 custom solid ebony wih an ODEGA tip...it does hit hard :cool:

Great stuff bough people, I appreciate all the input...maybe my break isn't as weak as I've thought..maybe it is...

What is your break speed?
Where does 19 fall against some real good players on this forum?
Is the monster break worth me pursuing?
 
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