Need opinions for carom cushion replacement. k-66 or #37

tiger37373

tiger37373

3 Cushion Enthusiast
Silver Member
My table is an antique brunswick. It will accept Intercontinental K-66 profile without mods. The #37 profile looks like it might be better, as it has significantly more rubber in the cross section. I can't seem to get a straight answer, as to what would perform the best. The cost to convert to #37 profile is obviously more, but I am willing to make the switch, if the performance would be noticable. Thanks for the help.
 
tiger37373, First Weclome to AZ Forum and The Carom Section.
If you want to email John Stauffer. I do have His email address.


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I have restored antique pool tables for the last 40 years, and decided to start with some billiard tables in 2006. Attached are 2 files on the two tables I've done, one for a neighbor and one for myself. My Arcadian was made in about 1925.

Thanks again!

John Stauffer
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John
Thanks for your comment. Nice job on both tables.

Question - someone on AZBilliard Forum was asking about carom cushions to use on a Brunswick Table.

What Type [if I may ask] of Cushions, do you use?

My AzBilliard Fourm Name is billiardshot.
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Bob,

Well, I'm just getting started with working with cushions. I have used one or another dealer to attach cushions to pool tables I've done. For the Brunswick Homewood table I did, we had K-55 rubber attached. This has not been satisfactory because the dealer had only the rails to work with (not the table), and indexed things from the bottom of the liners, resulting in variability of distance from bed to cushion nose (should be 1 1/2 " for 2 3/8" balls).

In the table factory, the cushions were always applied to the rails when attached to the table, thus ensuring proper nose height. Also, most dealers use contact cement, rather than glue under pressure, so the a fast cushion is not always achieved.

The Arcadian table had old Ray-Bestos K-66 gum rubber cushions attached, probably in the early 1970s, and a good job was done, and the table plays very well -- the cushions remain attached perfectly. Ray-Bestos were the premium cushions of their day, though the K-66 profile was really for pool rather than billiards.

By coincidence, today I just ordered my first set of billiard cushions from Mueller -- see: http://www.poolndarts.com/index.cfm...93D&Fuseaction=Catalog.Product&productID=7625

I will have to cut liners to provide proper nose height, and make the installation with the table set up. Very expensive cushions are available from Germany, but I'm afraid these would be wasted on the old tables.

I'm afraid this isn't of much help, though the reference at Mueller may be of use.

John
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For the U118 cushion, the description should say 3 pieces for 5X10 table -- two sides and one to be cut for the ends.

John
 
Artemis 37

Thanks for the quick replies!

I am almost ready to go for the 37 profile, but I cannot seem to get a definitive answer on the proper rail liner profile cutout. I took a look at Bob's diagrams here:http://www.caromcues.com/billiard_table_conversions.htm but the way that he has it laid out, doesn't seem like the rotation of the profile would be correct. I'm no expert, but if the profile is not in the correct orientation, I would think, that you'd have a change in the expected play.

The Intercontinental K-66 that I mentioned is not the K-66 profile that is used for pool tables. It is actually, a much better cushion, and has a slightly different profile dimensions. Which is interesting, since they has labeled the same.

It is a difficult decision.... I have played on several tables now that had this conversion done. Two were antique tables similar in vintage to mine. In my opinion, neither table played true. The other two older brunswicks, were from maybe the late forties or early fifties. The "newer" tables played excellent and true. One table was a verhoven, which isn't really in the same league, and finally, one olhausen. Both of the latter tables played as expected. All had the #37 profile cushions from Kleber (verhoven).

Does anyone have an opinion on kleber vs. artemis? They are the same profile, ans that is about all I can gather for specs. from eithe company.

Anyone have an opinion on the Intercontinental K-66?

I went to Meullers today, and saw the rubber, and of course, both seemed like a good high quality rubber.

So far, most of the people that I talked to, are favoring the #37. Although, the shop is gunning for the 66......

Thanks again for your opinions.
 
I just went to this sitehttp://www.pooltablefeltcloth.com/Cushions-Supplies/Artemis/index.shtm They give the dimensions but not the facing angle. I'd have to assume if they call it K66 it has K66 angle and gluing it to a K55 liner will give you a different nose height and or angle. If true you'll still need to modify your liner anyway. OR On your table you can use shims to adjust the angle and height but its a pain. You said antique so it's a T-Rail right. I've never played on a K66 table that didn't play short.

Mine table is my avatar 1926 or older. I put Kleber on and it plays beautiful. Angles are absolutely on the money and faster than K55. But not as fast as the European table. The extra weight of the Europeans give you more speed. The only problem I had with the conversion is the top back edge of the rubber was too high (glue side). I just recovered and laid a thin film of silicone between the feather strip and the back of the rubber and it came out nearly perfect. Next recover and it'll be right on.

If you want to see photos PM me with an email address. Photos are too large for AZ.

Oh and you might want to send this question over to the Ask the Mechanic forum. There's some good ones over there.
 
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Tiger37373

I sent you a private message. I have some rail liners for p37 rubber that I can ship you. If you cannot access the private message, post back and I will figure some way to contact you.

I think Kleber (Klebber?) is preferable to Artemis.
 
18.2balkline said:
Tiger37373

I sent you a private message. I have some rail liners for p37 rubber that I can ship you. If you cannot access the private message, post back and I will figure some way to contact you.

I think Kleber (Klebber?) is preferable to Artemis.
Click to expand...


Thats what I've heard too. Dumb luck on my part. No research Just asked for Euro Rubber and got the right stuff.
 
Kleber availability and pricing

Thanks again guys. I really do appreciate all the comments. Right now the situation is this. I have decided to make the switch to 37 profile rubber.

However, the price of Kleber rubber, ordered from Verhoven, comes to about $600. Which I really feel is just, too much. I have one person who is looking into better pricing, so we'll wait and see on that. If I can't get a better price on Kleber, I think that I will go for the Artemis 37 (gray). Which I can get locally, with much lower pricing.

Without having a piece of both to test with a Durometer, I'm not sure anyone could tell the differnce. I'd really like to hear if anyone has used the Artemis, but it seems like it is a fairly new offering from them.
 
The Red Artemus is what Sogard used and or is using. The major complaint with Sogard is they play short. The grey Artemus may be to compete with Kleber Grey and maybe to retain Sogard's business. Just speculation though.
 
Info re: Kleber Gray vs. Artemis Gray

Finally was able to get both spec sheets for these, with the help of forum members and outside sources. The Durometer, rebound, etc specs are, at least on paper, exactly the same. Just wish I could find someone who has actually played a table with the artemis. Did find out through the grapevine, that Gabriels does use the artemis on it's carom tables sometimes. This came from one of their installers.

KleberGray37.jpg


ArtemisGray37.jpg


The P37 artemis is the KHF GRAU-45

The No. 79 artemis is the BIBA ROT-40 (No.79 is used on some Soren Sogard tables.)
 
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Nice research. Are you saying that both have the same angles. I didn't see the diagram for Artemis.
Your diagram doesn't seem to be what I have for Klebar. It's more like below

Seems like what they did is go vertical on the backside and create the angle on the shelf.
billia1.jpg
 
37 profile

Both are same exact 37 profile, and I believe both of the brands should be oriented, as your drawing shows. I mostly posted the specs, so folks could see the difference in durometer and rebound between the two rubbers. As you can see, they are virtually identical, and frankly, I think the vast majority of players, probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, in playability. Although, it's just an opinion, because, so far, no one, has chimed in that actually knows whether they have played on the artemis or not....:wink:
 
Artemis cushions

Currently in the process of fitting the Artemis #37 gray rubber to my table. The lack of availabilty and enormous cost of acquiring the Kleber cushions was the deciding factor. I'll post an update once everything is finished, and let you all know how it plays... stay tuned.
 
Artemis P37 Cushions

I have to tell you that my antique Brunswick table has never played as good as it does now. The conversion using the new, artemis (gray) intercontinental #37 profile, cushions are every bit as good as the Kleber rubber, in my opinion. The table plays fast and true, now. If your considering switching to new rubber, give this a try. Currently, the Kleber rubber is so difficult to get and, so costly, that I really don't see how anyone in their right mind can justify it, for a conversion. The Artemis ended up being about 1/3 the cost. And, as far as I can see, the playability is very close if not exactly the same, as what I have experienced with tables that have been converted using the Kleber rubber. Thanks again to everyone, who helped me with research materials, and advice. All the information that I received, was very helpful, and very much appreciated.
 
Well guys, the drawings you refer to from caromcues.com are mine. The liner dimensions are accurate and work for either Kleber or Artemis cushions. I've done just over 30 of the conversions in the past few years and all were successful. Whether the table plays long or short will depend on proper installation of the liners, most critically nose height, and how tight the cloth is installed on the rail. Follow the instructions and you should have no problem.
 
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