Never an Answer

[titanic]

Hey Jude Rosenstock,

My hat goes off to you for your interest in promoting this game we all love.There was a time the great players played all over the country playing blocks of games of 14.1 and eventually ending up with a World Champion.

We can sit around and analyze this thing to death but several things need to be done simultaneously for there to ever be any major changes which will benefit not only the players but everyone connected.

1. All of the people who represent groups ( B.C.A., U.S.P.P.A. etc.) need to
meet and agree on an agenda beneficial to everyone.
a. Scheduled tournaments ( Divide the country up for easy travel)
b. Prize funds
c. Benefits

2. An advertising campaign by professionals.

3. Television coverage using proffesional announcers that will not try to
second guess what the shooter is going to do.

4. A (1 %) draw taken from each tournament to be divided equally for payoff
to the person breaking the following records : high run 14.1, high run bank
pool, high run in one pocket, set the bar at 15 racks of nine ball. Make
these known to the public and create the excitement.

If Joe Blow looks in the T.V. Guide and sees at 7:00 on Channel 31 the 14.1 straight pool championship match is being played and should either player run 527 balls they will earn 1.4 million dollars they will want to see it.

And if no one does it my bet is at least half the folks will stay around to see who wins next time it comes on.

Baskin & Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream for only one reason....you walk in the door you should be able to find something you like.

I read your thread earlier and again was amazed at how much negative response you received. Oddly though with all the negativity none of them had any suggestions on how to improve things, they just wanted to vent how unhappy they were with the status quo.




Titanic Jerry

 

[Renegade]

YEah! Right on!

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Hey Jude Rosenstock,

My hat goes off to you for your interest in promoting this game we all love.There was a time the great players played all over the country playing blocks of games of 14.1 and eventually ending up with a World Champion.

We can sit around and analyze this thing to death but several things need to be done simultaneously for there to ever be any major changes which will benefit not only the players but everyone connected.

1. All of the people who represent groups ( B.C.A., U.S.P.P.A. etc.) need to
meet and agree on an agenda beneficial to everyone.
a. Scheduled tournaments ( Divide the country up for easy travel)
b. Prize funds
c. Benefits

2. An advertising campaign by professionals.

3. Television coverage using proffesional announcers that will not try to
second guess what the shooter is going to do.

4. A (1 %) draw taken from each tournament to be divided equally for payoff
to the person breaking the following records : high run 14.1, high run bank
pool, high run in one pocket, set the bar at 15 racks of nine ball. Make
these known to the public and create the excitement.

If Joe Blow looks in the T.V. Guide and sees at 7:00 on Channel 31 the 14.1 straight pool championship match is being played and should either player run 527 balls they will earn 1.4 million dollars they will want to see it.

And if no one does it my bet is at least half the folks will stay around to see who wins next time it comes on.

Baskin & Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream for only one reason....you walk in the door you should be able to find something you like.

I read your thread earlier and again was amazed at how much negative response you received. Oddly though with all the negativity none of them had any suggestions on how to improve things, they just wanted to vent how unhappy they were with the status quo.




Titanic Jerry

Wow Jerry, I think you mentioned every great idea that's ever been mentioned on how (IMO) to properly promote the game! You're absolutely right. A commitment needs to be made nationally (if not, globally) to promote the game and award its champions. It's been argued that the straight pool high run has actually been broken numerous times but if there's one thing that's certain, NOBODY has run an excessive number of balls infront of ESPN's cameras. You're absolutely right that the general public would have difficulty ignoring such a feat. Could you imagine, something of that nature might even be worthy of SportsCenter!

Thanks for noticing my posts. I was beginning to wonder if I stood alone on this side of the fence!

 

[christopheradam]

Hey Jude Rosenstock,

My hat goes off to you for your interest in promoting this game we all love.There was a time the great players played all over the country playing blocks of games of 14.1 and eventually ending up with a World Champion.

We can sit around and analyze this thing to death but several things need to be done simultaneously for there to ever be any major changes which will benefit not only the players but everyone connected.

1. All of the people who represent groups ( B.C.A., U.S.P.P.A. etc.) need to
meet and agree on an agenda beneficial to everyone.
a. Scheduled tournaments ( Divide the country up for easy travel)
b. Prize funds
c. Benefits

2. An advertising campaign by professionals.

3. Television coverage using proffesional announcers that will not try to
second guess what the shooter is going to do.

4. A (1 %) draw taken from each tournament to be divided equally for payoff
to the person breaking the following records : high run 14.1, high run bank
pool, high run in one pocket, set the bar at 15 racks of nine ball. Make
these known to the public and create the excitement.

If Joe Blow looks in the T.V. Guide and sees at 7:00 on Channel 31 the 14.1 straight pool championship match is being played and should either player run 527 balls they will earn 1.4 million dollars they will want to see it.

And if no one does it my bet is at least half the folks will stay around to see who wins next time it comes on.

Baskin & Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream for only one reason....you walk in the door you should be able to find something you like.

I read your thread earlier and again was amazed at how much negative response you received. Oddly though with all the negativity none of them had any suggestions on how to improve things, they just wanted to vent how unhappy they were with the status quo.




Titanic Jerry

I posted a seperate thread about how to make this happen. From the title of your thread, it may not get a lot of views and am really interested to see what can be done about this.

I think the 1% fund is a great idea. Heres the link to the thread:
http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?p=144215#post144215

 

[ScottR]

.......
Thanks for noticing my posts. I was beginning to wonder if I stood alone on this side of the fence!

Nope. You're not alone; just the most vocal about it. 14.1 should be the game to promote. After that is established, teach the non-playing world about the other pocket games.

Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that if people tune in to a trick shot show, they might just be amazed at some of the really ticky 3-cushion shots. Maybe show a skilled pocket player try a 3-c shot and then a 3-c player who can pull it off.

Ok, I'm back to reality now. It was fun there in pool-land for a while.

 

[Blackjack]

I read your thread earlier and again was amazed at how much negative response you received. Oddly though with all the negativity none of them had any suggestions on how to improve things, they just wanted to vent how unhappy they were with the status quo.




Titanic Jerry

This amazed me during the Danny Harriman threads as well. People were more than willing to choose sides or condemn Brady or the UPA, yet very few offered any suggestion on how to come to a solution. To move forward and progress we need to place the negativity aside and work toward progress. Many people are quick to shoot down an idea that has never been tried before, yet the only idea they can come up with is to stay exactly where we are at. I believe that there are many people that are comfortable with the current state of our industryand our game and this is why we get nowhere when we try to change things. My idea is to get enough positive energy around a positive idea and then... don't look back. Many would be surprised at who would get left behind - but I wouldn't be surprised at all.

 

[BigLip]

Hey Jude Rosenstock,

My hat goes off to you for your interest in promoting this game we all love.There was a time the great players played all over the country playing blocks of games of 14.1 and eventually ending up with a World Champion.

We can sit around and analyze this thing to death but several things need to be done simultaneously for there to ever be any major changes which will benefit not only the players but everyone connected.

1. All of the people who represent groups ( B.C.A., U.S.P.P.A. etc.) need to
meet and agree on an agenda beneficial to everyone.
a. Scheduled tournaments ( Divide the country up for easy travel)
b. Prize funds
c. Benefits

2. An advertising campaign by professionals.

3. Television coverage using proffesional announcers that will not try to
second guess what the shooter is going to do.

4. A (1 %) draw taken from each tournament to be divided equally for payoff
to the person breaking the following records : high run 14.1, high run bank
pool, high run in one pocket, set the bar at 15 racks of nine ball. Make
these known to the public and create the excitement.

If Joe Blow looks in the T.V. Guide and sees at 7:00 on Channel 31 the 14.1 straight pool championship match is being played and should either player run 527 balls they will earn 1.4 million dollars they will want to see it.

And if no one does it my bet is at least half the folks will stay around to see who wins next time it comes on.

Baskin & Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream for only one reason....you walk in the door you should be able to find something you like.

I read your thread earlier and again was amazed at how much negative response you received. Oddly though with all the negativity none of them had any suggestions on how to improve things, they just wanted to vent how unhappy they were with the status quo.




Titanic Jerry

youre my idol...

 

[Snapshot9]

after all ...

Must be a terribly difficult task, after all:

1) You have to have someone that understands how to put a business plan
together.
2) You have to contact major players in the different organizations with
suggestions on how to come together, and get their information,
feedback,
suggestions.
3) You have to appoint an oversight commitee, and a project manager.
4) You have to work for the overall good of the sport, putting your
individual interests second.
5) You have to develop short and long range goals for the sport.
6) You have to execute your business plan, and track progress towards
those goals.
7) You have to remain flexible to make adjustments needed along the way.

To me, these simplified steps I have named are not that difficult for a
seasoned business manager. I would like to be able to get feedback from
different organizations on what they are doing currently to help unite
the sport on different levels. If these organizations were accountable
to an oversight committee, I am sure we would be progressing much
faster than we are, either that or we have the wrong people heading
up those organizations and they need to be replaced with someone that
has a 'can do' attitude.

 

[JustPlay]

This amazed me during the Danny Harriman threads as well. People were more than willing to choose sides or condemn Brady or the UPA, yet very few offered any suggestion on how to come to a solution. To move forward and progress we need to place the negativity aside and work toward progress. Many people are quick to shoot down an idea that has never been tried before, yet the only idea they can come up with is to stay exactly where we are at. I believe that there are many people that are comfortable with the current state of our industryand our game and this is why we get nowhere when we try to change things. My idea is to get enough positive energy around a positive idea and then... don't look back. Many would be surprised at who would get left behind - but I wouldn't be surprised at all.

BlackJack,
Alot of people have given a multitude of suggestions on how to make the "professional" Pool scene in America succeed. However, when it did succeed it rotted out from the inside and ended up failing. The problem is really how to maintain it success and make it grow. The Camel Tour was the last great thing from professional pool in the US. Also, companies like brunswick could help put something together, but they only sponsor tournaments here and there (which I gladly thank them for!). The US Open hasn't grown in quite some time. The DCC is the only real interest for pool going in the US. Yes, I know there are a few other tournaments held across the US, but those are mostly invitational tournaments.

In a 2004 Issue of Billiards Digest, they consulted the PBA pro bowling commisioner on how to be successful, it was a 5-6 page artical. Now if that isn't helpful, I don't what is. I love to play pool and I love to watch the best play pool. But for the Mens Professional pool to succeed, it just has to become more interesting to the sporting public and not just the general public.

The small tournaments like Viking, Joss, SE Open and the Pechaur Tours are most likey going to be the main stay of the closest thing to a real professional tour. So, just be thankful for that. I know I am.

Also, everyone need to take into consideration is the state of the economy across the US. When it was good in the 90's money was more loose, pool had more sponsors giving more of themselves....This is a bigger problem that nobody on this forum has given much thought too. Today, when people want to spend money on entertainment, pool is not their first thought.

With that said, look at the young players of the 90's who have succeed today (Deuel, Pagulayan,, etc..). Will pool see a wave a young players hit the scene today or tommrow. I doubt it. Where is Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, etc. I don't see them soliciting sponsors, I don't see them going to the sponsors who sponsored them during their careers asking for monies for a tour? If they are not playing or selling you and me cues, they don't want anything to do with pool. If they got off their asses for one year ( I don't thats too much to ask for) and helped set up a tour and lend their names to the industry that made them successful, then, pro pool in the US might have a shot at succeeding.

 

[fxskater]

I think another big help would be having events played LIVE on TV. They do it all over Europe and Asia why can't we in North America. Also if tournaments are shown live, Sportcenter and shows like it can show highlights of the really good shots. Hell I would even bet that a pool shot would be on the plays of the week all the time. Getting pool on sportscenter would be VERY VERY good. People would start watching, just to see some of these incredible shots. Kinda like the reason i watch baseball. I think its the stupidest most boring game on the planet, but every once in a while i watch for an hour, just to hopefully catch a home run.

 

[JustPlay]

I think another big help would be having events played LIVE on TV. They do it all over Europe and Asia why can't we in North America. Also if tournaments are shown live, Sportcenter and shows like it can show highlights of the really good shots. Hell I would even bet that a pool shot would be on the plays of the week all the time. Getting pool on sportscenter would be VERY VERY good. People would start watching, just to see some of these incredible shots. Kinda like the reason i watch baseball. I think its the stupidest most boring game on the planet, but every once in a while i watch for an hour, just to hopefully catch a home run.

Great Idea! It is just to sad that companies like Brunswick, never ever, promoted its players that it sponsored to the espn audiences or even basic stations audiences could become familar with names other than Mosconi or Minnesota Fats. It would have been great to here an espn announcer tell you that the bad boy of pool Earl Strickland won his 5th US open title and banked $50,000 with the victory. Within one fraction, of a moment of time, everyone knows who Chris Moneymaker is. That is mostly why espn will not show live matches. The audience can not identify with the players and have not clue as to who is a great player and who is not.

 

[Blackjack]

BlackJack,
Alot of people have given a multitude of suggestions on how to make the "professional" Pool scene in America succeed. However, when it did succeed it rotted out from the inside and ended up failing. The problem is really how to maintain it success and make it grow. The Camel Tour was the last great thing from professional pool in the US. Also, companies like brunswick could help put something together, but they only sponsor tournaments here and there (which I gladly thank them for!). The US Open hasn't grown in quite some time. The DCC is the only real interest for pool going in the US. Yes, I know there are a few other tournaments held across the US, but those are mostly invitational tournaments.



In a 2004 Issue of Billiards Digest, they consulted the PBA pro bowling commisioner on how to be successful, it was a 5-6 page artical. Now if that isn't helpful, I don't what is. I love to play pool and I love to watch the best play pool. But for the Mens Professional pool to succeed, it just has to become more interesting to the sporting public and not just the general public.

The small tournaments like Viking, Joss, SE Open and the Pechaur Tours are most likey going to be the main stay of the closest thing to a real professional tour. So, just be thankful for that. I know I am.

Also, everyone need to take into consideration is the state of the economy across the US. When it was good in the 90's money was more loose, pool had more sponsors giving more of themselves....This is a bigger problem that nobody on this forum has given much thought too. Today, when people want to spend money on entertainment, pool is not their first thought.

With that said, look at the young players of the 90's who have succeed today (Deuel, Pagulayan,, etc..). Will pool see a wave a young players hit the scene today or tommrow. I doubt it. Where is Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, etc. I don't see them soliciting sponsors, I don't see them going to the sponsors who sponsored them during their careers asking for monies for a tour? If they are not playing or selling you and me cues, they don't want anything to do with pool. If they got off their asses for one year ( I don't thats too much to ask for) and helped set up a tour and lend their names to the industry that made them successful, then, pro pool in the US might have a shot at succeeding.

First off, Don Mackey "sold" professional pool to Camel (RJ Reynold's tobacco). They did not step in to help pool, they stepped in to sell tobacco products. When they could not do that effectively with PROFESSIONAL pool, they decided to put their money into amateur pool because their studies showed that most people that play pool in leagues do not follow professional pool, and 60% of those players use tobacco products. With that being said, the Camel Tour was THE worst thing that ever happened to pool. It was disguised as big money payouts, but in the end it solved nothing. In my opinion, I believe that companies such as Brunswick, Olhausen, etc can add 5 times as mch as they are adding now. At each UPA event you have 64-96 guys fighting for $30,000 in prize money. No wonder Efren is playing in Asia. Most of the WPBA players are posting yearly earnings well below the poverty level. This is how the industry takes care of the best players in the world. If you don't belie that this is the case, ask any pro player (male or female) how much they earned last year, and compare that with their expenses (travel, lodging, entry fees, etc). The pros know what I'm talking about. It aint cheap to be out there... you can finish in the money in every event and still scrape by.

The industry should be ashamed of themselves. How they can sit in the stands during TV tapings and keep a straight face is something I'll never understand. Quite simply, they're cheap. Plain and simple. Charlie Williams and Eydie Romano gave verbatim, matching responses when the issue of added money was brought up. The added money just isnt there. So in turn, promoters like Brady Behrman are forced to rely on selling booth space to vendors and count on fans money to make up the difference. This is what people are crucifying Brady for, but in reality - all TD's have done the same exact thing at one time or another. The industry refuses to put money back into the game. This problem eventually is passed along to players like Danny Harriman and we point fingers at the TD, when in fact the industry REFUSES to promote itself through the professional level of our game. They put their name out their for Mitch the pitchman to ramble through 30 second ad spots for accufast cushions and Sardo Racks, yet nobody is willing to invest big money into any tournament at any level, on any tour. This includes the NUTS which is doing nothing more more than adding to the problem (IMO). This is something Matchroom Sports figured out a long time ago... DON'T RELY UPON THE INDUSTRY. They are individually committed to themselves and nobody else. If you don't believe me, give me a phone call and I will have you call some industry leaders and run by the idea of player sponsorship with them. They'll hang up on you real fast. Day in day out I spend hours trying to find sponsorship for several players only to hear excuse after excuse as to why they won't invest in professional pool. I bring that up because if you talk with them long enough about the right subjects... they'll even tell you that they do not want to support professional pool (or tournaments) any more than they have to.

The solution to the problem is that as an industry we need to decide where WE are going. Right now everybody is going off in their own direction and our lack of progress shows. Back in 1986 we were talking about getting pool into the Olympics. Its been 20 years, and we're further away from that goal than we ever have been. If it does get into the Olympics, it won't be because of anything that is beng done here in North America. It will be because of the hard work that is being done in Asia and Europe by men like Charlie Williams, Barry Hearn and Ralf Eckert. As fans we need to start taking a long look at how this game is respected in other countries, yet frowned upon over here. Are they frowning upon the game, or the people in it? All of us know the answer.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

First off, Don Mackey "sold" professional pool to Camel (RJ Reynold's tobacco). They did not step in to help pool, they stepped in to sell tobacco products.

Though, I did not have your first hand experience, in the matter, it is pretty much the way I saw it, as an outsider.

The industry should be ashamed of themselves. How they can sit in the stands during TV tapings and keep a straight face is something I'll never understand. Quite simply, they're cheap. Plain and simple.

They buy-in dirt cheap, I agree, but why would they want to pay more for the same thing? If the kid next door is cutting sweet Mrs. Brown's yard for $10 why would she want to call professional landscapers? Basically the only way to get more money is to have solidarity among players. If they can fill an $8,000 added field of 64 with no problem, what is the incentive, to the sponsor, to make it $80,000?

Tracy

 

[JustPlay]

First off, Don Mackey "sold" professional pool to Camel (RJ Reynold's tobacco). They did not step in to help pool, they stepped in to sell tobacco products. When they could not do that effectively with PROFESSIONAL pool, they decided to put their money into amateur pool because their studies showed that most people that play pool in leagues do not follow professional pool, and 60% of those players use tobacco products. With that being said, the Camel Tour was THE worst thing that ever happened to pool. It was disguised as big money payouts, but in the end it solved nothing. In my opinion, I believe that companies such as Brunswick, Olhausen, etc can add 5 times as mch as they are adding now. At each UPA event you have 64-96 guys fighting for $30,000 in prize money. No wonder Efren is playing in Asia. Most of the WPBA players are posting yearly earnings well below the poverty level. This is how the industry takes care of the best players in the world. If you don't belie that this is the case, ask any pro player (male or female) how much they earned last year, and compare that with their expenses (travel, lodging, entry fees, etc). The pros know what I'm talking about. It aint cheap to be out there... you can finish in the money in every event and still scrape by.
.........
The industry should be ashamed of themselves. How they can sit in the stands during TV tapings and keep a straight face is something I'll never understand. Quite simply, they're cheap. Plain and simple. ..........The solution to the problem is that as an industry we need to decide where WE are going. Right now everybody is going off in their own direction and our lack of progress shows. Back in 1986 we were talking about getting pool into the Olympics. Its been 20 years, and we're further away from that goal than we ever have been. If it does get into the Olympics, it won't be because of anything that is beng done here in North America. It will be because of the hard work that is being done in Asia and Europe by men like Charlie Williams, Barry Hearn and Ralf Eckert. As fans we need to start taking a long look at how this game is respected in other countries, yet frowned upon over here. Are they frowning upon the game, or the people in it? All of us know the answer.

BlackJack,
I only know of the Camel tour from the responses of alot of players. Yea, Camel had its own agenda and so did Mackey. My point was that it was an organized tour with alot of events to which alot of pro players liked and up and comming players at the time, like Corey Deuel, Troy frank and Dee Adkins helped bring up their games to where they are today.

Like I stated before, mens pro pool in the US fails from within...

BlackJack, your point of Brunswick being able to add 5 times the amount it adds now is a great point. If you and everyone else knows this, just think of the outside companies that were interested in sponsoring mens pro pool and they see how companies like brunswick don't invest in, its own industry they way it should, so, why should they invest their money and time?

Mens pro pool has to be succesful on its own for other to notice and to jump on the band wagon, like poker has. Will it happen....most likly not..