New BCAPL Advanced Division

[1on1pooltournys]

Want to increase the division play - You should have 3 divisions

Trophy teams - Can consist of anyone (if SVB and his pro friends want to play to win a trophy, so be it)

Open teams can only have Open players. Not an Advanced or Master player to be found.

Master teams can have anyone but limited to only one Grand Master and also must have one Advanced or Open player that plays each round for their team - all of this minus someone who is a top 64 pro .

Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.

If you use my ideas, send me back the $500 entry fee I burned for our Master Team last year.

Want to give me a job, give me an email where to send my resume and salary requirements.

Watchez is dead on here...

4 divisions is too much....

So what if a player gets in the open division that should maybe be a master...he has to earn his spot in other divisions...

Do you know how tough it is to beat 1000+ players?? A top pro might not finish in the top 32 with the way you have the races and formats designed.

I will also send in my resume along with watchez!!

 

[Duane Tuula]

I sincerely appreciate all the effort that the BCAPL has put in since 2005. However, with the master teams and singles already decreasing what do you expect to happen with the new advanced division and moving players "down" who were previously rated as a master???

I'm very confused about your ultimate goal with this move. Anyone with a clue understands the detriment of handicapped tourneys. Having a new division "smells" of the same. Seriously, I know many players between the current divisions. Maybe create a few more divisons? The GM division is already a sham IMO. Mark's original statement was "anyone who is not in the pro event" can play in the GM division. Seems that has changed dramatically.

Even if you choose to make a move how can you not have the foresight to have all the questions answered in advance? It sounds more like a "fly by the seat of your pants" decision. I seem to recall the last second "let's change the sanction fee" last year after summer leagues are already advertised and starting.

Checking out the gm/master/advanced lists online is quite a joke too. Players added, players on both lists, nicknames galore... kinda ugly and not very professional.

Just my $0.02...

Duane

 

[calcuttaman]

Anyone with a clue understands the detriment of handicapped tourneys.

I firmly believe that by going to 4 divisions it will increase the numbers overall just like it does at the largest state or regional BCAPL tournaments. If people looked, they would have found that the ones that have 4 divisions are the biggest ones attendance wise. And these ones continue to grow. A good example would be the increasing numbers at the WI state BCAPL tournaments the last few years.

Here's a good case in point. In WI the divisions are, Master, AA, A, B. I've got a friend that is most definitely a B player. He plays in the B division at states and has cashed but not at the top. On his best days he could beat a A player and *possibly* on his greatest day ever and a AA's worst day ever he might beat the AA player. I don't think he could ever beat a (WI)Master player.

So now he wants to go to Vegas and what does he see? 4-5 WI Master players in the Open division AND 12+ WI AA's in the open division. What chance does he have of even cashing? What incentive does he have to come to Vegas when he knows what he's facing.

Before anyone speaks up and says, "Well this is how you get better, by playing better players." Yep, that's true for about 1 in 10,000 player WHO will be able to play a better player and then get better. But what about the other 9999 players who aren't going to get better?

Lets face it, there is a vastly large number of those B players (and A players) out there that aren't coming to Vegas because they know they will have to play AA and Master players. Maybe now they will come and play.

 

[Duane Tuula]

I firmly believe that by going to 4 divisions it will increase the numbers overall...

Here's a good case in point. In WI the divisions are, Master, AA, A, B. I've got a friend that is most definitely a B player. He plays in the B division at states and has cashed but not at the top. On his best days he could beat a A player and *possibly* on his greatest day ever and a AA's worst day ever he might beat the AA player. I don't think he could ever beat a (WI)Master player.

So now he wants to go to Vegas and what does he see? 4-5 WI Master players in the Open division AND 12+ WI AA's in the open division. What chance does he have of even cashing? What incentive does he have to come to Vegas when he knows what he's facing.

...

Lets face it, there is a vastly large number of those B players (and A players) out there that aren't coming to Vegas because they know they will have to play AA and Master players. Maybe now they will come and play.

So 4 is the magic number then? I see. Then why does WI combine A/AA and AA/Master and Master/GM in different events and handicap?

Pro's do lose to B players in bar box 8-ball and it doesn't have to be anyones best or worst day.

How many people actually cash in Vegas? If that's the only reason you go then you are surely misguided.

I'll definitely agree that in any tournament the B group is largest (open in Vegas). Wouldn't it make more sense to split up that group?

Drawing all these fine lines with advancing skill levels is ridiculous. The more divisions you create the more headaches you create. Each group will have a top and bottom. For the most part, the "tops" want to stay exactly where they are and always cash while the "bottoms" want to move down to the next division and be a "top".

I believe in keeping things simple.

 

[DR Pool]

Wisconsin

Duane: I'll attempt to answer Wisconsin. First off the GM will be a thing of the past in WI.

Second the A/AA combination is in 9-ball only and has worked pretty well.

The M/AA is for team and has leveled the competition.

As far as drawing the lines, everyone has to do it at some point, yourself included in detemining who can play in the no-master events.

Dean

 

[Holly]

Duane,

I'd like to address some of the issues and comments you made. But first thank you for your appreciation of the work that CSI / BCAPL does. We love what we do and dedicate all that do to bring more opportunity for tournament and league play to as many people as possible.

Implementation of the new Advanced division was not a spontaneous decision. Organizationally CSI does not operate that way. Any decision made is discussed and really pulled apart and around as a team for months if not years before choosing to move forward or not. It is standard for us to announce any policy updates or changes immediately following the BCAPL nationals in May. Since it's announcement we have also been fully prepared and have answered all inquiries sent to us.

Our goal was stated in the initial press release: The Advanced Division was created to add a level of play that falls between the Open Division and the Master Division. The goal is to allow more players to participate and to further competitive opportunity.

We wish all players to compete in as close to an even field within their division as possible. In other sports, such as amateur tennis, there are numerous levels (as many as 7 or 8) or for example when I was competing in Golf as a teen we usually had 6 or so flights that players participated based on their skill level. It is a sign of growth and a desire to see people be able to compete should they choose to that expansion of divisions are created regardless of activity or sport.

I do not believe publicizing our lists is a joke, actually we are happy that we are so open to our league members and public. Our database is huge and like any databases, sometimes duplicates show up because (i.e, married vs. maiden names). However on a regular basis queries are ran to catch any updates or merges that need to take place and anyone in IT knows that database maintenance and reviews are standard operating procedures. However, I do agree with you that we should clean those duplicates up and are on it right now. It’s like cleaning out the garage, not necessarily the most enjoyable job, but important non-the less

Regarding the nicknames, that is the choice of the player themselves. We request legal names and enter that information into our system, but we also have a “nickname or goes’ by” type of field. This is the first name field you are seeing on the online lists. If someone prefers to go by Rich or RJ versus Richard, that is their prerogative and this is a sport that we all love to be involved, not a governmental agency.

Over the years I’ve heard, read, seen, observed, and fired back at any one-sided arguments about handicapped vs. non-handicapped tournaments or events. There is a place and room for both. There should be and always will be both. If we limit players in a manner where people from all walks of life and skill level do not feel they can enjoy healthy and hopefully as equitable as possible competition that would be unfair and self centered. Not everyone is created equal in ability regardless whether the activity is pool, tennis, golf or the shot put , should that prevent them from being able to choose to compete with the hope of possible winning? Nope, that’s why there are flights in golf, levels in tennis and divisions in amateur and league pool.

One of the greatest gifts we have as human beings is the gift of choice. We at CSI choose to expand options for players, it is an individual’s choice to decide to participate and enjoy those options or not.

All the best,
Holly

 

[almer]

Duane,

I'd like to address some of the issues and comments you made. But first thank you for your appreciation of the work that CSI / BCAPL does. We love what we do and dedicate all that do to bring more opportunity for tournament and league play to as many people as possible.

Implementation of the new Advanced division was not a spontaneous decision. Organizationally CSI does not operate that way. Any decision made is discussed and really pulled apart and around as a team for months if not years before choosing to move forward or not. It is standard for us to announce any policy updates or changes immediately following the BCAPL nationals in May. Since it's announcement we have also been fully prepared and have answered all inquiries sent to us.

Our goal was stated in the initial press release: The Advanced Division was created to add a level of play that falls between the Open Division and the Master Division. The goal is to allow more players to participate and to further competitive opportunity.

We wish all players to compete in as close to an even field within their division as possible. In other sports, such as amateur tennis, there are numerous levels (as many as 7 or 8) or for example when I was competing in Golf as a teen we usually had 6 or so flights that players participated based on their skill level. It is a sign of growth and a desire to see people be able to compete should they choose to that expansion of divisions are created regardless of activity or sport.

I do not believe publicizing our lists is a joke, actually we are happy that we are so open to our league members and public. Our database is huge and like any databases, sometimes duplicates show up because (i.e, married vs. maiden names). However on a regular basis queries are ran to catch any updates or merges that need to take place and anyone in IT knows that database maintenance and reviews are standard operating procedures. However, I do agree with you that we should clean those duplicates up and are on it right now. It’s like cleaning out the garage, not necessarily the most enjoyable job, but important non-the less

Regarding the nicknames, that is the choice of the player themselves. We request legal names and enter that information into our system, but we also have a “nickname or goes’ by” type of field. This is the first name field you are seeing on the online lists. If someone prefers to go by Rich or RJ versus Richard, that is their prerogative and this is a sport that we all love to be involved, not a governmental agency.

Over the years I’ve heard, read, seen, observed, and fired back at any one-sided arguments about handicapped vs. non-handicapped tournaments or events. There is a place and room for both. There should be and always will be both. If we limit players in a manner where people from all walks of life and skill level do not feel they can enjoy healthy and hopefully as equitable as possible competition that would be unfair and self centered. Not everyone is created equal in ability regardless whether the activity is pool, tennis, golf or the shot put , should that prevent them from being able to choose to compete with the hope of possible winning? Nope, that’s why there are flights in golf, levels in tennis and divisions in amateur and league pool.

One of the greatest gifts we have as human beings is the gift of choice. We at CSI choose to expand options for players, it is an individual’s choice to decide to participate and enjoy those options or not.

All the best,
Holly

I PLAY IN VNEA AS WELL AS BCA AND I AND ALOT OF OTHER PEOPLE FEEL THE INTERMEDIATE DIVISION IN VNEA IS A COMPLETE FAILURE,I HOPE YOUR NEW DIVISION ISNT THE SAME RESULT,I LOVE IT THE WAY IT IS,sorry about caplocks,just noticed they were on

 

[Holly]

Dear Almer,

Thanks for your feedback. Each league is different as you know. The BCAPL players who compete in league tournaments, state, regional and national we believe will welcome the Advanced division. We believe for the BCAPL, the new division will allow players who can too easily dominate the Open division yet they feel they really don't have a great chance in the Master division their "own space" as you will. We've received requests over the years for those in the BCAPL singles middle world to implement a division of this kind in order to feel comfortable playing in singles again. I believe the division will be successful and at the same time more clearly define what is a true Master player too.

Cheers,
Holly

 

[Duane Tuula]

Duane: I'll attempt to answer Wisconsin. First off the GM will be a thing of the past in WI.

Second the A/AA combination is in 9-ball only and has worked pretty well.

The M/AA is for team and has leveled the competition.

As far as drawing the lines, everyone has to do it at some point, yourself included in detemining who can play in the no-master events.

Dean

Dean, Dean, Dean... you missed the point. WI does a find job in general. I'm simply pointing out that "four divisions" is not exactly the magic number in my opinion as stated by your friend.

As I stated, keep it simple. Yes, draw lines but not too many. I'm adding my comments because national associations such as the BCAPL set the trends for the rest to follow.

 

[Duane Tuula]

Duane,

I'd like to address some of the issues and comments you made...
Holly

Thanks for your thoughtful response. However, pillaging from the master's division to create an advanced division still doesn't work for me. If you were to bump up about the top 32 open to master and 33/96 open to advanced you'd get my vote.

I personally appreciate the "lists" and use them frequently. I understand maintenance and IT since I have 25+ years experience. The lists when I looked at them yesterday were "ugly" as I said. Checking again today I see they have been changed. Thanks to all who keep them updated and accurate.

When you get 128 in the master's and 10x that in the open this past year it is clear to me you need to move more players up from the open to create a valuable division in between.

 

[Holly]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. However, pillaging from the master's division to create an advanced division still doesn't work for me. If you were to bump up about the top 32 open to master and 33/96 open to advanced you'd get my vote.

I personally appreciate the "lists" and use them frequently. I understand maintenance and IT since I have 25+ years experience. The lists when I looked at them yesterday were "ugly" as I said. Checking again today I see they have been changed. Thanks to all who keep them updated and accurate.

When you get 128 in the master's and 10x that in the open this past year it is clear to me you need to move more players up from the open to create a valuable division in between.

Duane,

The Advanced division is not pillaging from the Masters, just creating better definition. In fact we'd love to see you play again at nationals and the Advanced division is ideally suited for a player like yourself. We haven't seen you play in the Singles since 2005. I saw you did very well cashing at 17th place in the Men's Master Singles then in 2006 your Men's / Mixed Master team took 13th, but you did not play in singles that year. I outlined this as an example of why an intermediate / Advanced division's time has come. Sorry if you do not agree that we are not pulling from the Open division enough into the Advanced division. I hope you are in the situation or choose to compete again. In your situation you would be an advanced player starting in 2011 should you so request.

All the best,
Holly

 

[El Diablo]

Open

There is no way you are pulling enough players from the Open Divisions into Advanced. Just my opinion and I've been to all but one of the BCA Championships for the last ten years.

 

[DRW]

Teams

Want to increase the division play - You should have 3 divisions

Trophy teams - Can consist of anyone (if SVB and his pro friends want to play to win a trophy, so be it)

Open teams can only have Open players. Not an Advanced or Master player to be found.

Master teams can have anyone but limited to only one Grand Master and also must have one Advanced or Open player that plays each round for their team - all of this minus someone who is a top 64 pro .

Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.

If you use my ideas, send me back the $500 entry fee I burned for our Master Team last year.

Want to give me a job, give me an email where to send my resume and salary requirements.

I, like watchez believe the Foreign countries should have to revamp their system. Reminds me of the middle 90's when a Texas league operator owned about the whole Texas panhandle. Had several monster all star teams and Chewy Riviera lived in Denver, but somehow played on one of those teams. That was while John Lewis was in charge though.

 

[akaTrigger]

I am pretty sure the BCAPL will check out how this goes next year and adjust if need be. You all make it sound like this is the final decision for life! They already know to learn and adjust when needed and after considering many options, opinions, and learning experiences.

I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.

Learning experiences is what separates the successful businesses from others imo.

 

[Marie's husband]

How is this Advanced division going to affect the formatting for the teams events?


In example, I do see a lot of regionals are held in March and April, Nationals are held in May, that only gives a person one month to reorganize a team or scotch double partner if they performed well at regionals and are going to Vegas. Also, most teams have already make there plans in March for the May tournament, so I can see a lot of people having to make some last minute changes unless the BCAPL makes some clauses in the team format for when a team member does get moved up in divisions.

I was just wondering due to there may be teams out there that will have to restructure there league team so that they may be eligible for Vegas team events.

Thank You


Whoops, didnt see the post about the teams questions will be answered on June 29th.

 

[DRW]

The man in charge

I am pretty sure the BCAPL will check out how this goes next year and adjust if need be. You all make it sound like this is the final decision for life! They already know to learn and adjust when needed and after considering many options, opinions, and learning experiences.

I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.

Learning experiences is what separates the successful businesses from others imo.

Mark Griffin, most certainly has my faith and support on anything he does with pool.:thumbup:

 

[Holly]

I, like watchez believe the Foreign countries should have to revamp their system. Reminds me of the middle 90's when a Texas league operator owned about the whole Texas panhandle. Had several monster all star teams and Chewy Riviera lived in Denver, but somehow played on one of those teams. That was while John Lewis was in charge though.

I've joked the past couple of years that part of all of our jobs at CSI is just that, investigation. We work hard to make sure everyone is qualified, sanction and on the up and up. Nope, not on our watch if we can at all help it.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Holly, I've a question. Are you allowed to play up from whatever division you are allocated into? In other words, if you are in the Open division can you also compete in the Advanced, Masters, and G. Masters?

If so, this gives single players in the lower division more opportunities to compete and more incentive to make the trip to Nationals, since they would have more than one event to look forward to.

 

[Holly]

Holly, I've a question. Are you allowed to play up from whatever division you are allocated into? In other words, if you are in the Open division can you also compete in the Advanced, Masters, and G. Masters?

If so, this gives single players in the lower division more opportunities to compete and more incentive to make the trip to Nationals, since they would have more than one event to look forward to.

Hello DPP,

Players can choose to play in a singles division that is progressive above where they are currently listed. HOWEVER...a player is ONLY allowed to play in one singles division at all during nationals. Due to scheduling it is impossible to allow players to play in multiple singles divisions as you describe. Somewhere along the line someone would have to forfeit possibly because of that type of allowance and with 10,000 entries and 6800-7000 players with time and space limits, I'm sure you can see the scenario that could brew.

At this time there are 22 divisions at the BCAPL Nationals. Feasibly, a player can play in the 9-Ball Challenge, Scotch Doubles, Singles and Teams. We are also looking for ways to offer more for the players and appreciate good feedback and suggestions. Doesn't mean they are always feasible when looking at all the variables involved in an event this size, but we truly appreciate your imput.

TTFN,
Holly

 

[DunnM1]

No! Don't like this at all. You can not make decisions based on past performance. And this is why: Player A is better than Player B, but Player B has finished higher in the State or National Tournaments. Why, because Player B had a weaker bracket. You have no way of knowing which player is better than someone else. You can in Golf, not in pool. This is what happens. Say you have a tournament that the same individuals are always in the cash. The lower players complain (and normally) those lower players can not win anyways. What happens is that you ban those individuals (Master Division, Advanced Division) that are winning and they are replaced by the next level of players, and those players start winning all the tournaments. What happens is you start with 128 players, some get ban and now those individuals that wanted to play them won't show up as well. So now your tournament have 32 players if you are lucky. Until you can handicap players correctly this won't work. But wait pool is handicaped, it is called Pro's and Amauters. Next thing we will do is create divisions with in the Pro events. Lets see we could name those divisions Grand Masters, Masters, Advanced and Open. What a concept. You are trying (VNEA included), to get every unspoken for $, instead of doing what is best for our wonderful sport. No wonder our sport is moving backwards. A good idea that the IPT had was trying to force the pool community to support the sport.

Maybe it is time to do something else with my free time. Maybe golf.

Michael Dunn
Grove City, OH