New cue, Bender or Capone

[merylane]

Show me a pic of a 90-degree cutter ( side-cutter ) that's cnc fed.

joey just think of how a blank is made..... do you realy think that machine could not be cnc?

its just an angled cut with a 90 degree cutter, why do you think its such a big deal?

gee it could even devide your blank into infinity.

 

[merylane]

ML writes:
whats the other reason they have a cnc then?

Repeatability...
most industries would say labor, but we both know the big reason cuemakers use it cause its easy. sure they might say creativity but that didnt begin in th cnc era. please dont consult any cue makers that havent made patterns by hand cause obviously they wouldnt know.

gee most do it on a mill but i guess it couldnt be a cnc mill cnc indexed and operated huh.? gee i think some machining centers even auto laod. so please explain what cant be done.

Because of all the setups I have seen, there would be nothing gained in making this part of the machining CNC when cutting the v splice.

but yet you believe they gained so much cncing the other operations?
all your doing is cutting wouldnt you gain the same no matter what your cutting..... open your mind a little.... im sure in the old days when they cut them on a table saw, a guy said i could that better on a mill and every probably said "cant be done"


if your example still does not use dyed wood then i dont know what that statement has to do with it. not to mention some of the woods he does use have the same properties so that makes it evenmore confusing.

Actually he would disagree. But either way that was the reason and thats that.

it doesnt sound like that from his web site.


Back to the point, (no pun intended) when doing recuts its more labor intensive than veneering and I don't think there is a cuemaker alive that would say different. It also gives you a wider range of materials now, especially if using wildwoods, burls and the like.

labor intesive is ?able, if you made a blank with 2 colors.........
veneered= would have one vee cut and 2 45's = 3 total cuts
recut= would have one vee cut and 2 recuts = 3 total cuts
hhmmm... still dont make sence to me and of course cnc would save all the labor of the cuts and indexing. and by the way how much time do you believe is involved in the cuts?

Joe

just ask your self why so many have spent so many years trying to make quality veneered blanks.... yet it didnt take much time to do quality recut blanks?

 

[merylane]

by the way how do you make the quotes and replies different so its easier to follow along. thanks

 

[Rackin_Zack]

by the way how do you make the quotes and replies different so its easier to follow along. thanks

you use the quote tags like this:

(quote=whoever)bla bla bla(/quote)

reply

(quote=whoever)next bla bla bla(/quote)

reply

and so on and so forth. Of course to get it to actually quote then you have to use the square brackets ([])

 

[classiccues]

just ask your self why so many have spent so many years trying to make quality veneered blanks.... yet it didnt take much time to do quality recut blanks?

Are you nuts? Do you know how much time it took these guys to learn recuts?
Ask yourself.. if its so much easier to do, how come it wasn't done 25, 50 years ago? Or even 10 years ago? Ask why 10 cuemakers that do both, all claim recuts are harder? Show me ONE that does both, that says the contrary.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

ML writes:
labor intesive is ?able, if you made a blank with 2 colors.........
veneered= would have one vee cut and 2 45's = 3 total cuts
recut= would have one vee cut and 2 recuts = 3 total cuts
hhmmm... still dont make sence to me and of course cnc would save all the labor of the cuts and indexing. and by the way how much time do you believe is involved in the cuts?

You are over simplifying the steps for your arguement. It cannot be measured in cuts. You need to measure the actual time it takes to slap 3 pieces of wood into a cavity and apply pressure in 4 spots vs the time it takes to cut a cavity in 4 spots remove the piece, glue in the next "veneer", press it, let it dry, remount the part precisely without any misalignment, turn down the part, remount the part in the mill, recut the next cavity x 2 x 4. Now we can begin to say which is more labor intensive.

Joe

 

[JoeyInCali]

I do re-cut points like the second example and in my oppinion they are harder and more time consuming than mitered veneers.

Nuff said. Case closed.

 

[merylane]

you use the quote tags like this:

(quote=whoever)bla bla bla(/quote)

reply

(quote=whoever)next bla bla bla(/quote)

reply

and so on and so forth. Of course to get it to actually quote then you have to use the square brackets ([])

thanks zack, ima gonna try.

 

[merylane]

Are you nuts? Do you know how much time it took these guys to learn recuts?
Ask yourself.. if its so much easier to do, how come it wasn't done 25, 50 years ago? Or even 10 years ago? Ask why 10 cuemakers that do both, all claim recuts are harder? Show me ONE that does both, that says the contrary.

Joe

sorry joe it was done 25 years ago. 50 years ago i think they were still doing veneered points good, well aleast thats what george felt earlier in his career.

the example you gave said he didnt do both. the example mike gave, i beg to differ that the quality is the same. when i compare the 2 it looks to me they execute the recuts better????

and maybee your debating with one?

have you ever seen one done with a combination of the 2?

 

[merylane]

Just making sure that everyone is on the same page here. Are we talking about this kind of re-cut point:


I do re-cut points like the second example and in my oppinion they are harder and more time consuming than mitered veneers.

murray please PLEASE dont take this the wrong way from what ive seen you do great cue work and im sure your an excellent machinist.

but after seeing how you cut your mitre for veneers i understand why you would say that. i know it does an excellent job, but not very quickly.

while your here i would love to hear your comments on the praviuos posts where some people said "cant be done" about cnc technology.

also if you could tell me which of the 2 types you feel you do a better job executing?... you know which results are you happier with? and why?

thanks

 

[cbi1000]

harder hit?

Thanks for the replys. Some of you have talked about harder hit?? My feel on that is hard hit = stiffer shafts and or joint material.?
I have been buying and selling cues for the past two years and havent found the that perfict one yet. The southwest i had was a '03. That cues hit too hard, way too stiff. I'm not sure if it would have felt better if i purchased a P314 shaft for it. I started to play with P314 shafts just after that. The best cue i've ever hit with was a Gilbert (with P314), but the craftsmanship was not 100%. I'm now playing with a one of a kind Bill Mcdaniel, craftsmanship is 100%, but i got the ivory joint and the hit is a little too "something" for me I'm using P314 with this cue two but now the hit feels soft. So now im after another cue, but i'm hoping i get the right cue for me without having to sell and buy again. Which ever cue i get i'll be playing with Predator shafts. Do you think the hit will be the same with either cue if i'm playing with P314 shafts?

Thanks,

 

[merylane]

You are over simplifying the steps for your arguement. It cannot be measured in cuts. You need to measure the actual time it takes to slap 3 pieces of wood into a cavity and apply pressure in 4 spots vs the time it takes to cut a cavity in 4 spots remove the piece, glue in the next "veneer", press it, let it dry, remount the part precisely without any misalignment, turn down the part, remount the part in the mill, recut the next cavity x 2 x 4. Now we can begin to say which is more labor intensive.

Joe

to begin i would like to quote kalisnakov (spelling?) you know the inventer of the ak47... "everything complicated is not useful, but everything useful is simple" hhhmmmmm.

im sure the only thing cuemakers agree on is glue drying wastes the most time followed by cutting wood

its not my fault if someone takes more steps than nessasary, why wouldnt they just glue them all at once? oh wait this is where you would say it cant be done. although its good to see you got off that statement..... did you ask yourself all those ?s , or did you realize the capabilities of cnc.

you went from material to difficulty to cant be done to labor intensive?
but did you compare 10 cues from each type and wonder why one is executed better than the other?

you said it was the veneer material (holly sycamore) but arent there other choices? isnt it true meucci has been using hard maple since before he was making cues? does he have a problem with hard maple? and if that was truly the reason why not just make his own veneers out of the woods he wanted to use? instead of changing the method? hhhhmmmm maybee there is another reason....could it be possible?

 

[merylane]

Nuff said. Case closed.

any of your own thoughts here?

so can i get your reasons why you said it "could not be done" or maybee you dont have any basis for you comments.

 

[Murray Tucker]

but after seeing how you cut your mitre for veneers i understand why you would say that. i know it does an excellent job, but not very quickly.

Gluing the strips together and letting them sit in the press for 24 hrs. is the long part. It only takes about 2 min. per cut to miter them and most of that time is loading them in the jig. I can cut, glue and fold as set of four in about 20 min.

while your here i would love to hear your comments on the praviuos posts where some people said "cant be done" about cnc technology.

Sure it could be done with a cnc machine and a simple program. I don't see where it would have much of an advantage. You still have to take the piece out, glue in the next wood, turn everthing back close to round, put it back in the jig, index it right and cut the next v groove.

also if you could tell me which of the 2 types you feel you do a better job executing?... you know which results are you happier with? and why?

I can do a pretty good job with both and which method I use depends on the look I am going for. I don't do thin re-cuts like Skip does. When I do a re-cut it is heavy. Here are an example.

You also have to remember that I am a metal worker and have metal working tools. I know some people use a table saw or a radial arm to cut points and miter veneers. I don't have a spare table saw and I don't have a radial arm worth a shit so those methods are out for me. I have two nice milling machines with DRO's and that is what I use. I am also self taught and use methods that I have come up with that work for me. There may be faster and easier ways to do things than the way I do them.

thanks

 

[merylane]

Gluing the strips together and letting them sit in the press for 24 hrs. is the long part. It only takes about 2 min. per cut to miter them and most of that time is loading them in the jig. I can cut, glue and fold as set of four in about 20 min.

Sure it could be done with a cnc machine and a simple program. I don't see where it would have much of an advantage. You still have to take the piece out, glue in the next wood, turn everthing back close to round, put it back in the jig, index it right and cut the next v groove.

i would say the same advantage as always quality reliable labor and of course accuracy. so you think you have to take the piece out? turn it? dont you think you could cut L's of your wood choice and # and glue them all at once?

I can do a pretty good job with both and which method I use depends on the look I am going for. I don't do thin re-cuts like Skip does. When I do a re-cut it is heavy. Here are an example.

i believe you do do both very well but im still wondering if you think you the outcome of one is better or are they equal? does one give you more fits than the other?

You also have to remember that I am a metal worker and have metal working tools. I know some people use a table saw or a radial arm to cut points and miter veneers. I don't have a spare table saw and I don't have a radial arm worth a shit so those methods are out for me. I have two nice milling machines with DRO's and that is what I use. I am also self taught and use methods that I have come up with that work for me. There may be faster and easier ways to do things than the way I do them.

thanks

i understand your a metal worker, and just from the tools you metioned i get the felling you may think there might be a faster way? certainly you dont tkink theres anything difficult about making a 90 degree edge and glueing it in a 90 degree groove do you?

 

[Murray Tucker]

i understand your a metal worker, and just from the tools you metioned i get the felling you may think there might be a faster way? certainly you dont tkink theres anything difficult about making a 90 degree edge and glueing it in a 90 degree groove do you?

I don't know if there is a faster way or not. I said that becuse of this statement that you made in the other post

but after seeing how you cut your mitre for veneers i understand why you would say that. i know it does an excellent job, but not very quickly.

Making a 90 degree edge and glueing into the groove is not difficult. Don't think I ever said it was. My statement all along was that veneers were faster and easier than doing re-cuts.

Please don't get the idea that I have any idea of what I am doing. I've just fiddled around and come up with methods that work for me and I stand by my statement that re-cut points are harder and more time consuming for ME to do. I am not speaking on behalf of anyone else but ME. I have never been to a cuemakers shop and I have no idea how anyone else miteres their veneers, cuts their re-cut points etc. so I have no clue which is harder or easier for them.

 

[merylane]

I don't know if there is a faster way or not. I said that becuse of this statement that you made in the other post



Making a 90 degree edge and glueing into the groove is not difficult. Don't think I ever said it was. My statement all along was that veneers were faster and easier than doing re-cuts.

Please don't get the idea that I have any idea of what I am doing. I've just fiddled around and come up with methods that work for me and I stand by my statement that re-cut points are harder and more time consuming for ME to do. I am not speaking on behalf of anyone else but ME. I have never been to a cuemakers shop and I have no idea how anyone else miteres their veneers, cuts their re-cut points etc. so I have no clue which is harder or easier for them.

sorry i forgot to mention that looked like a nice cue in the works in my last post.
also did you read all of it cause i still didnt post the quotes properly and most of it is mixed in with yours

your results speak for themself.... very nice...

 

[blud]

If it were possible ( I don't know it can be) it'd still take a lot more work and time.
Inlayed cnc'd points are much easier .

Inlayed CNC points are easy. I had a top end cuemaker from LA, tell me my VEE points looked as good as he's ever seen. My reply was, sir, these are not VEE points. He called me a liar.

Folks, these were infact flat bottom venered points that came to a point. Real sharpe point. This cue was a maple cue with 4 veneers.

Doing these are not to tough, and when your finished they are perfect and all the same length, all the way around the cue, including the inter point.
Re-Cut wood has been around for 100's of years. Bender didn't start them in cues. The first ones I saw was about 1965, in Miami Fl. Could of been Rocky's, don't know for sure.
I made a few of them in the early 80's.

Some have mentioned about waisting wood. PLEASE! If what you get for cues and your upset over wood cost, get a job at McDonald's.

IN MY OPINION FOLKS,

There are some, so called, experts sounding off here making noise and never having built a cue. But they know all. This forum, started by me, it's for guys to learn about cues and not get steered by reading false information.

No problem with good solid information, even if the guys not a cuemaker.
I think for learning, the questions should be directed to CUEMAKERS ONLY, and answered the same way, by CUEMAKERS.
sorry not trying to PO anyone, but telling it like it is.

blud

 

[classiccues]

Inlayed CNC points are easy. I had a top end cuemaker from LA, tell me my VEE points looked as good as he's ever seen. My reply was, sir, these are not VEE points. He called me a liar.

Folks, these were infact flat bottom venered points that came to a point. Real sharpe point. This cue was a maple cue with 4 veneers.

Doing these are not to tough, and when your finished they are perfect and all the same length, all the way around the cue, including the inter point.
Re-Cut wood has been around for 100's of years. Bender didn't start them in cues. The first ones I saw was about 1965, in Miami Fl. Could of been Rocky's, don't know for sure.
I made a few of them in the early 80's.

Some have mentioned about waisting wood. PLEASE! If what you get for cues and your upset over wood cost, get a job at McDonald's.

IN MY OPINION FOLKS,

There are some, so called, experts sounding off here making noise and never having built a cue. But they know all. This forum, started by me, it's for guys to learn about cues and not get steered by reading false information.

No problem with good solid information, even if the guys not a cuemaker.
I think for learning, the questions should be directed to CUEMAKERS ONLY, and answered the same way, by CUEMAKERS.
sorry not trying to PO anyone, but telling it like it is.

blud

Blud,
If you are going to cut and paste from a post thats 6 months old, cut and paste it accurately. Its hard to differentiate todays post from the other one

BTW this isn't the ask the cuemaker forum...

Joe

 

[classiccues]

sorry joe it was done 25 years ago. 50 years ago i think they were still doing veneered points good, well aleast thats what george felt earlier in his career.

the example you gave said he didnt do both. the example mike gave, i beg to differ that the quality is the same. when i compare the 2 it looks to me they execute the recuts better????

and maybee your debating with one?

have you ever seen one done with a combination of the 2?

ML,
You have a very bad habit of twisting whats being said. I asked if the recuts were so easy, why wasn't it done that many years ago. That question has nothing to do with veneering.

They have to do the recuts better. If they are off a hair you get a very visible heavy side.

Joe