New felt: bank angles and table speed

[Janhaus]

Hey all, long-time lurker, first-time poster here. Recently decided to get back into more frequent personal play, I have a 9' Brunswick Gold Crown 4 with Simonis 860HR that was installed about 7 years ago, rarely used. Reading the forums and trying out some of the speed tests, I felt the table speed was slow, i.e. I can only hit 4 rails lengthwise maybe 1/4 of the time, banking from center head spot to the center foot of the table. I refelted the table with Simonis 860HR again, had some bad experiences getting it installed by amateurs but this was rectified by a pro later. None of them knew anything about stretch indices but at least the second installer had a couple decades of experience. Long story short, even after replacing with new cloth, the table speed is pretty much same as before, 4.2 rails maximum lengthwise at breaking speed, but the balls feel faster in play. 2 questions:

1. Is this as fast as it gets for this type of cloth on a Brunswick GC with the original cushions? Somebody mentioned 4.5 lengths at a minimum as the lower end of expectations...was that on smaller tables, diff cloth, etc.? Should I get somebody to restretch the cloth?
2. Since the refelting of the tables, my bank shots go 'long', i.e. usually bank shots go less than the geometric angle but unless I'm hallucinating, I've been finding that shots go 'long' (no english applied). Is this normal for new re-felts or did something get messed up with cushion heights or something else?

 

[Black-Balled]

New cloth slides a lot, absolutely...resting in longer rebound angles.

Its nott impossible for you to need new rubber but I'd wait a bit to see how the table feels after a month or 3 of play.

I had a gc4 too and it definitely played slower than the tables at the rooms around me, though that cloth was likely 15+yr old

 

[garczar]

Banks go long on new, slippery cloth. Your speed seems ok to me.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Since the refelting of the tables, my bank shots go 'long', i.e. usually bank shots go less than the geometric angle but unless I'm hallucinating, I've been finding that shots go 'long' (no english applied). Is this normal for new re-felts or did something get messed up with cushion heights or something else?

Banks should go shorter on newer cloth because the forward spin that makes them curve longer doesn't take effect as quickly. That makes me wonder if your issue isn't with the rubber - if it's a little dead as you suspect, that would also make banks go longer (less cross-table force).

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

Banks should go shorter on newer cloth because the forward spin that makes them curve longer doesn't take effect as quickly. That makes me wonder if your issue isn't with the rubber - if it's a little dead as you suspect, that would also make banks go longer (less cross-table force).

pj
chgo

I should have said kicks more than banks. Banks may go a tad longer but not as much as a kick. Never really noticed short banks on new slick cloth.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Banks should go shorter on newer cloth because the forward spin that makes them curve longer doesn't take effect as quickly. That makes me wonder if your issue isn't with the rubber - if it's a little dead as you suspect, that would also make banks go longer (less cross-table force).

pj
chgo

As others here have confirmed, balls bank longer on new cloth, not shorter. Same reason pockets play significantly more forgiving on new cloth, as balls contacting a cushion near a pocket tend to rebound closer to the cushion.

Assuming the rail bolts are significantly torqued tight enough, the cushions have not become loose from the subrail, the correct profile cushions are on the table and have been installed at the correct height, it could be a cushion rubber issue. Artemis, Klematch and Diamond black cushions are the best for providing cushion rebound speed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As others here have confirmed, balls bank longer on new cloth, not shorter.

How to reconcile those dynamics? Without side spin I think only the ball's vertical rotation can change its angle off the rail (by becoming masse spin), and it should "grab" later on new cloth. Maybe less of that spin is rubbed off on new rail cloth...?

pj
chgo

 

[measureman]

It's cloth not felt!
It's cloth.
It's cloth.
It's cloth.
It's cloth.

 

[Black-Balled]

It's cloth not felt!
It's cloth.
It's cloth.
It's cloth.
It's cloth.

I felt the same.

 

[Black-Balled]

Since nobody asked, I'll tell ya about that pic I posted.

I was playing 15b rotation and that is shot after the break, a very runnable table...except for where the cb stopped.

Channelling my inner DCP, ya know?

I had forgotten about that self imposed anguish.

 

[7stud]

Maybe less of that spin is rubbed off on new rail cloth...?

pj
chgo

That's what Jerry Briesath claims in A Pool Lesson With Jerry Briesath, Kicking and Banking, Disk 2/11:55) . He says the same thing happens for large angle banks (shallow angle into the rail) on slow cloth because he says the ball hits closer to the axis of rotation, which rubs off less spin.

I think you may need to specify what the cueball is doing when it hits the cushion: sliding or fully rolling. Jerry Briesath claims pros hit banks hard because a sliding ball reacts the same way off the cushion no matter the condition of the cloth. I gather that other people in this thread are saying something different, i.e. that a sliding ball banks longer on new cloth.

 

[bignick31985]

Before re-clothing my GC4 (which we did two days ago) I could get 5-6 table lengths no issues. Superspeeds cushions.

New 860HR, new top, new cushions and I'm getting 4 to 4.5 at best. Once it's broken in it will spring up a bit. And the 4" pockets will become more difficult. Kicking and banking are much more difficult.

And I must say I despise a slidey table, lol.

 

[pw98]

Hey all, long-time lurker, first-time poster here. Recently decided to get back into more frequent personal play, I have a 9' Brunswick Gold Crown 4 with Simonis 860HR that was installed about 7 years ago, rarely used. Reading the forums and trying out some of the speed tests, I felt the table speed was slow, i.e. I can only hit 4 rails lengthwise maybe 1/4 of the time, banking from center head spot to the center foot of the table. I refelted the table with Simonis 860HR again, had some bad experiences getting it installed by amateurs but this was rectified by a pro later. None of them knew anything about stretch indices but at least the second installer had a couple decades of experience. Long story short, even after replacing with new cloth, the table speed is pretty much same as before, 4.2 rails maximum lengthwise at breaking speed, but the balls feel faster in play. 2 questions:

1. Is this as fast as it gets for this type of cloth on a Brunswick GC with the original cushions? Somebody mentioned 4.5 lengths at a minimum as the lower end of expectations...was that on smaller tables, diff cloth, etc.? Should I get somebody to restretch the cloth?
2. Since the refelting of the tables, my bank shots go 'long', i.e. usually bank shots go less than the geometric angle but unless I'm hallucinating, I've been finding that shots go 'long' (no english applied). Is this normal for new re-felts or did something get messed up with cushion heights or something else?

How dry is the room? If the humidity is low the rails wont rebound as much. A humidifier might help in that case.

 

[Janhaus]

Thanks for the comments all - good to know that slippery new cloth affects the angles so I'm not going crazy! It's wintertime right now and the heating is up throughout the house so humidity is pretty low, around 35%. I'll play on it a bit more and once it's broken in I imagine it'll get back to normal angles, hopefully sooner than later.
@ChrisinNC - I went and bought a tension torque wrench and retorqued all the rails according to what some people said on the forums, it's pretty firm now!
@bignick31985 - yup, 4.2 is my best but I haven't played in awhile so I'd imagine better form or technique would get it up to 4.5.

 

[ChrisinNC]

yup, 4.2 is my best but I haven't played in awhile so I'd imagine better form or technique would get it up to 4.5.

Are you counting the first trip down the table to the first end cushion the cue ball hits as the first of the 4+ table lengths?

 

[pw98]

Thanks for the comments all - good to know that slippery new cloth affects the angles so I'm not going crazy! It's wintertime right now and the heating is up throughout the house so humidity is pretty low, around 35%. I'll play on it a bit more and once it's broken in I imagine it'll get back to normal angles, hopefully sooner than later.
@ChrisinNC - I went and bought a tension torque wrench and retorqued all the rails according to what some people said on the forums, it's pretty firm now!
@bignick31985 - yup, 4.2 is my best but I haven't played in awhile so I'd imagine better form or technique would get it up to 4.5.

35% is not very low. Its about perfect.

 

[Janhaus]

Are you counting the first trip down the table to the first end cushion the cue ball hits as the first of the 4+ table lengths?

Yup, it's a bit shorter than full but it seems the methodology is to start at the head spot so that's where I start as well.

 

[maha]

its about what 90 percent of the tables with a player hitting up and down do. so its standard or better.

 

[garczar]

35% is not very low. Its about perfect.

depends on where you live. where i'm at 35% is pretty damn low.