NEW Ivory Regulation Clarification...

Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, we've been in communication with our attorney, FWS and other worthwhile entities. The entire new regulation hinges on the wording 'use after' import. This is what is causing concern for everyone.

Since pre ban ivory never had a 'use after' clause this sounds like it would be excluded. Confirming this fact is FWS stating:

"As you note, if there was no documentation requirement at all (because it was imported in 1920), then there would also have been no restriction on its use after import. However, there are some instances when import is allowed but the documentation (such as a CITES permit) explicitly indicates that the import is for non-commercial use. This is often the case for sport-hunted trophies, for example".

The part in bold is what we are interested in. The rest pertains to post ban and trophy ivory which we all know cannot be resold.

It looks promising and we're still investigating. We hope to have something more definitive in the coming days ahead. It looks like we're all still in business but we need to thread slowly until it's all defined.

We believe the following explains it:
"What documentation will be accepted to show that an item was imported prior to the species listing in CITES Appendix I?
The Service will accept any record or document that substantiates either the date of import (for example, a copy of the relevant Form 3-177 Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife or CITES export or re-export permit) or that demonstrates that the item was in the United States before the Appendix I listing date (for example, a datable photo of the owner with the item, a dated letter or other document referring to the item)."

Therefore, based on the above: if a seller of ivory can prove pre ban status as has been the case all along, then it qualifies under the 'use after' regulation because there was never any "use after" clause associated with pre ban ivory. Makes sense to us. :thumbup:

That may be one hurdle that is clarified but we believe they are trying to impose regulations limiting interstate sales. We are awaiting news on this which should be coming down the pike in the coming months ahead.

Until then it looks like it may be business as usual. This is not to be construed as a definitive explanation so proceed with caution. We are awaiting further clarification.
 
Thanks for passing the info along. Ill get the marshmallows for when you know who chimes in. Lol
 
Joe, I contacted you last week about some chunks 6mm thick for violin bow repair. Didn't quite hear whether you had any that size it not, btw...

Anyways, it may get worse for you, based on the way cites has worked in the past for tortoise shell, which I use for guitar/mando pics.

The laws around that only allow pre ban finished goods. So, for example, if I were to cut up a bre-ban Tiffany lampshade to make 500 picks, I'm manufacturing new tortoise shell finished goods, and this resets the CITES date, meaning they are now banned materiel, and manufacturing is illegal. So tortoise she'll that has been a pick for 100 years is ok (provided you have proof of that), but cutting a piece of it into something else is absolutely not ok as it's no longer antique.

I would go to FWS and ask them if this same ruling on CITES will apply to ivory as well.
 
Joe, I contacted you last week about some chunks 6mm thick for violin bow repair. Didn't quite hear whether you had any that size it not, btw...

Anyways, it may get worse for you, based on the way cites has worked in the past for tortoise shell, which I use for guitar/mando pics.

The laws around that only allow pre ban finished goods. So, for example, if I were to cut up a bre-ban Tiffany lampshade to make 500 picks, I'm manufacturing new tortoise shell finished goods, and this resets the CITES date, meaning they are now banned materiel, and manufacturing is illegal. So tortoise she'll that has been a pick for 100 years is ok (provided you have proof of that), but cutting a piece of it into something else is absolutely not ok as it's no longer antique.

I would go to FWS and ask them if this same ruling on CITES will apply to ivory as well.

We already have the clarification from FWS but we're looking into it further. Call me in the morning.
 
Joe,

Decided to edit. I guess my question is will you be able to sell a Joint and butt sleeve with the proper paper work where the Cue maker can take pictures showing he used said Ivory from Paper work and hand the cue and paper work over to cue buyer? It would seem the easiest system.
 
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Smuggle 1: to import or export secretly contrary to the law and esp. without paying duties imposed by law 2: to convey or introduce surreptitiously ~vi : to import or export anything in violation of the customs laws.
 
It seems as if the discussion has a lot to do with Customs, import and export, but my guess is everyone is trying to figure out if its legal just nationally? From state to state? I'm a bit confused, but what the heck do I know.
 
Joe,

Decided to edit. I guess my question is will you be able to sell a Joint and butt sleeve with the proper paper work where the Cue maker can take pictures showing he used said Ivory from Paper work and hand the cue and paper work over to cue buyer? It would seem the easiest system.

We have been in communications with our attorney, FWS, dealers, artisans, etc over the past couple months. We are going to continue business as usual through the June 26th date as noting has changed for us and all of you out there.

What type of proof did you have and/or provide 6 months ago? Well, that's what you need to provide today. Same law, same proof. The 'use after' clause doesn't apply to us as we don't buy post ban and 'use after' never existed for pre ban. Therefore, you cannot supply something that never existed nor is required as per the new regulation for pre ban.

Interstate sales as usual until further notice. No restrictions as of today.
 
It seems as if the discussion has a lot to do with Customs, import and export, but my guess is everyone is trying to figure out if its legal just nationally? From state to state? I'm a bit confused, but what the heck do I know.

From my reading of today it appears that NY State is about to do the big ban. Thats my home State but I won't even visit there any more as you can't smoke cig's like any where, no cell phone use in car but I think you can breathe, just not exhale.
 
From my reading of today it appears that NY State is about to do the big ban. Thats my home State but I won't even visit there any more as you can't smoke cig's like any where, no cell phone use in car but I think you can breathe, just not exhale.


Once again who cares. Federal law trumps State law. California has a ban on ivory that its residents cannot buy or sell ivory out of the state. NY may follow suit. To be quite frank, both California and now NY as well are not part of the USA; they are their own country and certainly not part of this country. California is full of fruits and nuts and my home state of NY is going in the same direction. It's not the NY I grew up in that's for sure. There are Starbucks where there once were social clubs and there are Ishkabibble's Mediterranean Market where there once were pizzerias. Besides, there are no gun or knife collectors looking for ivory grips in either state. They're too busy planting trees and eating tofu with walnut toppings.

For us, ivory's largest market is right here in Florida with Texas coming in strong. We could survive selling ivory with just those two markets. Of course, it's nice to have the rest of the country and we do at present until the Feds screw that up.

As far as selling into or out of NY and California - Federal law trumps state law so there is nothing illegal there. However, did I say however, if the state decided to go after that person, they would have to fight and pay for the privilege of proving that.

God give me back my country!
 
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Joe,

Maaaaaaaaan, you don't know how much I agree with you. Sad that the future holds such great things and I would rather live in the past.
 
This is why I live in big Fuking Texas and I love it... yes we have big demands for ivory here artistically wise. Pool cues I wouldn't know .... we have a stack of cue makers here locally in Dallas and houston ....needless to say most of them make more sneakys than anything else...or maybe plain janes... it's more profitable.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But Joe may be right that NY and CA are becoming their own independent country unlike the rest of us... we only have big import/ export business in the oil and gas industry. NY and CA are 2 states that have more customs issue that's not oil and gas related... Texas just has retarded border problems with mexico
 
We have been in communications with our attorney, FWS, dealers, artisans, etc over the past couple months. We are going to continue business as usual through the June 26th date as noting has changed for us and all of you out there.

What type of proof did you have and/or provide 6 months ago? Well, that's what you need to provide today. Same law, same proof. The 'use after' clause doesn't apply to us as we don't buy post ban and 'use after' never existed for pre ban. Therefore, you cannot supply something that never existed nor is required as per the new regulation for pre ban.

Interstate sales as usual until further notice. No restrictions as of today.

Joe,
Are you going to stop out of state sales on the June 26th date?
 
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