New Mosconi Cup format

[Black-Balled]

We shur did talk it over...didn't we?

This subject has been brought up several times before. In tone of those thread some one put an image of Europe over USA . USA is larger than all th European countries combined.

So if I understand you correctly you are conceding the fact that American players are not as good as European players and we need Canada to bail us out. I can see that view.

Also...every time this subject comes up the same 2 names lee popping up that you mentioned. Alex and John....both very good players in their own right. Food for thought about adding those 2 or whoever you would want to add.

1. What makes you so sure they can play in the mosconi format and better than svb or Bergman? Do they have any more experience in alternating break and the rowdy environment than our players do ?

2. Its a team sport made up of 5 players. Do you think that by adding those 2 that the other 3 are suddenly going fo play any better than they have previously ? Or is it maybe we will only lose 11-5 instead of 11-2 if by chance those 2 players perform better than USA players.

3. Are Alex and John really that much better than svb...bergman ...skylar that they could be our saviors ?

I guess it all boils down to if Alex and John can perform under the moscoi format as good as the Europeans do. It seems that no current USA player can perform to our expections under that format and Alex and John cant win it alone even if they can perform under that format which is in question because they do not have any experience under that format and environment as far as I know.

Omw thing for sure..they might not help much but couldn't do any worse .....i dont think .

 

[Black-Balled]

I got it: same participants, all names go into a hat, a box...even a hat box. You shake that box- or hat or hat box, but not too hard, coz you don't wan to spill it...

 

[AtLarge]

I love these stats. I'm pretty sure over the last 10 years if you put Johnny Archer, Rodney Morris and Earl Strickland in that bunch, their stats would be similar.

What would you propose?

I just posted the Van Boening Era player records for Team USA -- http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6040375&postcount=26

So you can compare the records for all 16 guys who have played in the past 11 years.


[And I don't have a proposal at the moment to "fix" Team USA.]

 

[Floyd_M]

USA had the best players on US Teams over the years, still lost.
"Best players" mean nothing IF said players do not practice before the match. One cannot win expecting their laurels to carry them to the finish line.
That's what Team Europe does, practice-practice-practice.

Past couple years I've talked to a few past lady pros and suggested they start a Ladies Mosconi Cup. Never got a response back tho they seemed interested.
I've also hinted they may want to join the USA team, definitely they could use some dire needed help. Couple showed up in the stands rooting them on.

I suggested, I tried.

 

[mikepage]

It doesn't matter that there are more people in Europe, we in the US have probably 100 times more pool players. The problem is the pool culture in the US vs. Europe, and that's not easily fixed.

[...]

I don't know where your "100 times" comment comes from, and I don't know why you dismiss the population argument.

In fact USA and Europe have have about the same proportion of good pool players commensurate with their respective populations. There is really nothing to explain regarding USA vs EUR generally --EUR is about the amount better they should be. The anomaly was a few decades ago when Europe was lagging behind.

Texas and California combined have the same population as Great Britain (fewer than 10% of Europe's people). The 25th best player in TX/CA plays at 725 speed. The 25th best player in Great Britain plays at 725 speed.

It really is a numbers thing.

And while it is fun to talk about 7-foot tables or gambling or the flavor of the day, it's not really necessary; there is really nothing to explain.

BUT--while they are both about the same, they are both pretty bad. The USA and most European countries would do well to try to understand what is happening in Poland. And everybody should try to understand what is happening in Taiwan. I suspect most people don't realize Taiwan is an island with about the population of Florida.

It has 7 players in the world top 30-- 7 players above 790. That's incredible. Taiwan produces as many top players as does all of Europe.

If the USA produced top players at the same rate as Taiwan, there would be 100 US players above 790.

 

[BRussell]

mikepage- if it’s just about population, why aren’t there 5 times as many pro cricket players in the US compared to the UK? Or twice as many pro “football” (American) players in Europe as in the US?

I don’t know if there are really 100 times more pool players in the US than Europe, and I have looked but can’t find estimates. But I’d bet it’s a pretty good guess, based on my own experience living there for some time, and seeing what Europeans on AZB have said. Most of the numbers you see about pool in the US are in the millions, and if you count people who occasionally play in a bar, it’s tens of millions. Small cities (like Fargo?) have hundreds of weekly league players.

I don’t believe it’s an anomaly that Europe wasn’t as good as the US when the Mosconi Cup started. Isn’t it much simpler to explain it by the fact that they had almost no pool culture at the time? They had to use snooker players in the Mosconi Cup!

And how do you explain your Taiwan and Poland examples, if it’s just about population?

 

[Floyd_M]

Numbers is one thing, what the IN thing (or FAD) to do at the time is another.
US has always been a seasonal of different sports. For pool it's been a decade or three between The Pool Greats & Legends. Europe had it's eras of pool as well as US, now the world is coming into it, hence Taiwan & others.
Me personally seeing some of America's players, I don't see any greats for the near future but even that is changing.

USA's last big pool resurgence was in the very late 1980's and lasted until the mid 2K's, almost 20 years worth. It's now waning as showing via the Mosconi losses. That "WINNING" urge simply isn't there. Tired, lazy, other things on their minds? I know this current PC krap is taking its toll on the local leagues here. Seems pool night is the get away night from it.

So many variables creates many different outcomes. Always has, always will.

"AIM TRUE, SHOOT STRAIGHT"

 

[mikepage]

mikepage- if it’s just about population, why aren’t there 5 times as many pro cricket players in the US compared to the UK? Or twice as many pro “football” (American) players in Europe as in the US?

I don't mean it HAS to be just about population. I think it is easy to find evidence it is NOT just about population for Cricket and American football.

But I haven't found evidence this is true for pool between the USA and Europe. In fact the evidence goes the other way: they seem to produce good pool players at about the same rate per 1 million population

I don’t know if there are really 100 times more pool players in the US than Europe, and I have looked but can’t find estimates. But I’d bet it’s a pretty good guess, based on my own experience living there for some time, and seeing what Europeans on AZB have said. Most of the numbers you see about pool in the US are in the millions, and if you count people who occasionally play in a bar, it’s tens of millions. Small cities (like Fargo?) have hundreds of weekly league players.

I don’t believe it’s an anomaly that Europe wasn’t as good as the US when the Mosconi Cup started. Isn’t it much simpler to explain it by the fact that they had almost no pool culture at the time? They had to use snooker players in the Mosconi Cup!

And how do you explain your Taiwan and Poland examples, if it’s just about population?

I don't explain it. But my point is the fact it is NOT just commensurate with the population comparing USA or Europe generally to Poland or Taiwan means there is something to explain --or more properly something to investigate --- (Our off-the-cuff explanations here is AZBilliards are a dime-a-dozen, imo)

 

[garczar]

Adding all of North America won’t make any difference. Yes, you have Morra and Alex. But they are the only two top caliber players in Canada. Canada has the same problem as the US. No top players are coming up.

Mexico had zero top players.

I've heard ElChapo could really control "the white" in his day.

 

[garczar]

I don't know where your "100 times" comment comes from, and I don't know why you dismiss the population argument.

In fact USA and Europe have have about the same proportion of good pool players commensurate with their respective populations. There is really nothing to explain regarding USA vs EUR generally --EUR is about the amount better they should be. The anomaly was a few decades ago when Europe was lagging behind.

Texas and California combined have the same population as Great Britain (fewer than 10% of Europe's people). The 25th best player in TX/CA plays at 725 speed. The 25th best player in Great Britain plays at 725 speed.

It really is a numbers thing.

And while it is fun to talk about 7-foot tables or gambling or the flavor of the day, it's not really necessary; there is really nothing to explain.

BUT--while they are both about the same, they are both pretty bad. The USA and most European countries would do well to try to understand what is happening in Poland. And everybody should try to understand what is happening in Taiwan. I suspect most people don't realize Taiwan is an island with about the population of Florida.

It has 7 players in the world top 30-- 7 players above 790. That's incredible. Taiwan produces as many top players as does all of Europe.

If the USA produced top players at the same rate as Taiwan, there would be 100 US players above 790.

So, to compete with the youth-in-asia we need to start euthanasia?

 

[Floyd_M]

So, to compete with the youth-in-asia we need to start euthanasia?

I'll second that.
Bah-dah DUMP!

 

[BRussell]

I don't mean it HAS to be just about population. I think it is easy to find evidence it is NOT just about population for Cricket and American football.

But I haven't found evidence this is true for pool between the USA and Europe. In fact the evidence goes the other way: they seem to produce good pool players at about the same rate per 1 million population

Except 10 years ago when they didn’t.

I don't explain it. But my point is the fact it is NOT just commensurate with the population comparing USA or Europe generally to Poland or Taiwan means there is something to explain --or more properly something to investigate --- (Our off-the-cuff explanations here is AZBilliards are a dime-a-dozen, imo)

I don’t think just because one explanation lines up with the data at one point in time it’s fair to say you “don’t need” any other explanation.

Population size currently explains Europe vs. US pool, but it doesn’t work for other national pool comparisons (e.g., Taiwan), didn’t work for Europe vs. US until just recently, and doesn’t work for other sports (e.g., cricket).

I think national interest better explains competitive differences, but I agree is harder to quantify, and also doesn’t work every time. But the idea that 1(x) in every 100 million people, no matter where they come from, will be world-champion-level pool players is just as off the cuff, dime a dozen idea as any other.

 

[Island Drive]

Leaving Bergman off this years team was a joke. I understand the point system to promote more players playing more events, but you always want the best players in the final 5 regardless. Hatch is a great player but would get beat by every player on Europe's team this year. Same for Oscar. I love Oscar, but Karl Boyes ran over him at the Derby last year.

Just trying to come up with a good formula

I saw him win a pair of back to back hill matches late at the Open in VA. He don't rattle much.