New Pros shouldn't

- politely disagree. :grin:

- pretty sure professional golf is the same (except for the top earners with their exemptions - which pool could adopt).

-Brian

According to sport http://www.sportaccord.com/en/ click members tab, then click definition.
SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:[1]

have an element of competition
be in no way harmful to any living creature
not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football)
not rely on any 'luck' element specifically designed in to the sport

Since break shots in 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, 14.1 and rotation are designed to be random, there exists luck. Such as being lucky by pocketing the 9 on the break. (I have second thoughts on 14.1 involving luck.)

Luck is designed into billiard games and that means it does not meet the organizations standard criteria for being a sport.

Trick shot competitions are defined as a sport, because they do not rely on luck.
 
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Why does pool (the pool industry) have to do anything for them? We are talking about professional gamblers. Pool is not a sport, people pay money to try and win more money.

Sure you mentioned some greats, but those players won their matches, cashed out and that is the prize. What more do they deserve?

(JAM I am on your side but I want to argue against you today.)

If I understand Jam correctly, the point is not that pool should give back, just simply that there is no big money in the game so it is just not one of those pursuits that does give back to players that reach the top like in other sports.
 
If I understand Jam correctly, the point is not that pool should give back, just simply that there is no big money in the game so it is just not one of those pursuits that does give back to players that reach the top like in other sports.

Since the prize money isn't big enough, the industry should provide other forms of compensation.

I don't get paid what I think I am worth, the only compensation I can wait for is a raise, promotion or other job offer. Sometimes I have to do work outside of my contract, which is not something I am paid to do. It is easy to say people deserve more, but explaining why is what I want to know.

Saying they aren't given enough in prizes is the same as saying they deserve more, at least to me.
 
Since the prize money isn't big enough, the industry should provide other forms of compensation.

I don't get paid what I think I am worth, the only compensation I can wait for is a raise, promotion or other job offer. Sometimes I have to do work outside of my contract, which is not something I am paid to do. It is easy to say people deserve more, but explaining why is what I want to know.

Saying they aren't given enough in prizes is the same as saying they deserve more, at least to me.

I'm confused about the point you are making. Before you were questioning why the pool industry has to do anything for them and now you seem to be saying they should provide enough compensation in some form. You also seem to be saying that no one is responsible for paying you more just because you think you are worth more. So I guess I just don't get it. :embarrassed2:

Yes, the prize money in pool is not enough in terms of more than a select few being able to make a living at it. But I don't think that's saying they deserve more at all (in the context of free market dynamics). If anything, the prize money is a pretty strong reflection of what they are worth. The promoters aren't making millions. The prize money (added money) is what it is because that's all it's worth for the promoter to put on the event in order to make a little money.
 
I'm confused about the point you are making. Before you were questioning why the pool industry has to do anything for them and now you seem to be saying they should provide enough compensation in some form. You also seem to be saying that no one is responsible for paying you more just because you think you are worth more. So I guess I just don't get it. :embarrassed2:

Yes, the prize money in pool is not enough in terms of more than a select few being able to make a living at it. But I don't think that's saying they deserve more at all (in the context of free market dynamics). If anything, the prize money is a pretty strong reflection of what they are worth. The promoters aren't making millions. The prize money (added money) is what it is because that's all it's worth for the promoter to put on the event in order to make a little money.

Now it sounds like any other profession.

I understand the people want the pool industry to do more for players. One suggestion was the prize money is not enough and it should be raised. I didn't understand why that was the suggestion, because most jobs consist of people not making enough money to be independent.

Debates like this make me want to start profitable businesses.
 
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good read

After reading about all the glamour of a want a be or a pro player. It makes me feel fortunate to have a good wife, a son, home, 1970 SS chevelle and two dogs that love me. Some times we just need to realize
the cold hard facts or reality. I love to play pool and buy way to many pool cues. Would like to be a great player, I do take a look at the cold hard
facts . I am a great ball banger. I would be more than happy to just bring my game up a ball or two. No matter how bright the lights are when all is well when the lights go out it is dark. Just my thought . take care,john
 
According to sport http://www.sportaccord.com/en/ click members tab, then click definition.


Since break shots in 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, 14.1 and rotation are designed to be random, there exists luck. Such as being lucky by pocketing the 9 on the break. (I have second thoughts on 14.1 involving luck.)

Luck is designed into billiard games and that means it does not meet the organizations standard criteria for being a sport.

Trick shot competitions are defined as a sport, because they do not rely on luck.

People say some silly things that's just the way people are I guess, but did you even think about what you are saying in relation to other sports. Along the lines of your thought then football, baseball, hockey, golf and a lot more sports would not be a sport, REALLY?
 
The biggest question of all though: How can we make professional pool become a worth while income? How do we get Pro Pool to be a high yielding money sport?

I don't know the answer to this, and I would love to find out the answer. I want to know what it would take to make pool big? If pool paid out like golf, it would be on the right track in my opinion. How do we go about getting it to that point? Any suggestions? It is peaking my interest, and I really would be greatful if someone could explain what exactly it is missing? Is it just the popularity of the sport? I mean.. If Video game players can make a living, playing PC or even Console games, than Pool has to have a chance.. we just have to figure out how to make it reach that level.

I'm all ears.
 
The biggest question of all though: How can we make professional pool become a worth while income? How do we get Pro Pool to be a high yielding money sport?

I don't know the answer to this, and I would love to find out the answer. I want to know what it would take to make pool big? If pool paid out like golf, it would be on the right track in my opinion. How do we go about getting it to that point? Any suggestions? It is peaking my interest, and I really would be greatful if someone could explain what exactly it is missing? Is it just the popularity of the sport? I mean.. If Video game players can make a living, playing PC or even Console games, than Pool has to have a chance.. we just have to figure out how to make it reach that level.

I'm all ears.

Can we make professional pool viable as an income? Depends on who you mean by "we". That's fundamentally the problem. There is NO recognized governing body that regulates the game in terms of rules, sanctions, tours, etc. The BCA used to do it (to some extent) back in the early 1900s, with sanctioned Balkline and then Straight Pool championships, but not really so much since. All attempts at a "pro tour" have been something set up by individual promoters for profit. It's the "U.S. Open" because Barry Behrman says so...which is fine, since no one else will/can do it. Here's what needs to happen to make it look like pro golf:

1. Set up a recognized governing body...harder than it sounds, but the BCA is probably the likely starting point.
2. Set up a 200 man roster...that's the tour. They get a "tour card". They qualify for it. They (or their sponsors) pay tour fees. They have to compete in enough sanctioned events throughout the year and place high enough to keep their tour card, or they get "relegated" to semi-pro regional tours. The bottom 50 get relegated every year, with 5 select regional "feeder tours" replacing them with their top ten finishers. You could add another 10 slots (making 60) that are kept by the governing body to use for ad hoc tour invites...for hall of famers or other high-interest players that would benefit the tour but couldn't make the cut for reasons of schedules, health, etc.
3. Let it mature a few years, then go for sponsors outside the industry, like car manufacturers, tobacco/liquor, watch companies, fast food, whatever. Doesn't sound like many more folks will make an honest living at this, does it? Well, for many years, they won't. But you have to plant a seed that grows first, setting up the foundation that will draw in sponsors' money, then allow the tour to grow to maybe 300 players, with auxillary tours (Seniors', Juniors', Pro-Am, Special, etc.) that also feed into the system. Then you'll get more promoters competing to get their events sanctioned as tour events.

Don't worry. Even if someone managed to pull it off, we'd all collectively find a way to screw it up.
 
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After reading about all the glamour of a want a be or a pro player. It makes me feel fortunate to have a good wife, a son, home, 1970 SS chevelle and two dogs that love me. Some times we just need to realize
the cold hard facts or reality. I love to play pool and buy way to many pool cues. Would like to be a great player, I do take a look at the cold hard
facts . I am a great ball banger. I would be more than happy to just bring my game up a ball or two. No matter how bright the lights are when all is well when the lights go out it is dark. Just my thought . take care,john

John, the best time in pool I ever had was when I was playing on the leagues and shooting socially at my neighborhood tavern. We had a group of us that liked to play for a brewskie or a buck, and it wasn't the money or beer that made it fun, it was beating our opponent, flexing our pool muscles on a field of green. :D

Love your family. In the end, that is what live is all about. If you ever get sick, die, or become handicapped and cna't work, your family will be there. If you're a pool player and can run 12 racks in a row, sign autographs and get your picture taken for years and years, have your likeness on the cover of Internet pool websites and magazines, and then grow old, the pool public will drop you like a hot potato and speak about you as if your scum of the earth. Welcome to American pool! :sorry:

John, you have the best of all worlds: a loving family and the ability to shoot pool and enjoy it. :cool:
 
If I understand Jam correctly, the point is not that pool should give back, just simply that there is no big money in the game so it is just not one of those pursuits that does give back to players that reach the top like in other sports.

You do understand my thoughts about this topic correctly. :)

I don't think just because a guy can run a rack or two, he is warranted to make big bucks. I do think if the BCA is pretending to be the representative entity of American professional pool, they should at least try do something about the sad state of affairs. Rules are changed willy-nilly behind closed doors to accommodate players of choice. The organization is *not* transparent.

Over the years, they have dropped professional pool players from their radar screen. There is no more BCA Open, which wasn't really an open anyway, but it was a gesture, giving the pros something to shoot at. The BCA Open had half of its player roster provided to our international brethren of players. Only half of it was American players, and make not mistake about it, it was invitational, again, many times to players of choice. I can remember that so-called waiting list. What a joke, players picked, again, behind closed doors, the industry members' darlings.

As such, the payouts in pool today are no better than they were in the' 70s and '80s; yet, as we all know, the cost of living has quadrupled. Gasoline alone has gone from 50 cents a gallon with free steak knives or a set of glasses if you fill your tank up to $5 a gallon in some areas and no gifts. :p

The term itself "professional pool," if you think about it long and hard, is an oxymoron. There is no professional pool in America. There's a few players traveling to four of five events on American soil trying to get ranked, so they get a shot at playing in the Mosconi Cup. What else is there? Do you think there's money to be made in pool?

Believe me, even if you pocket $100,000 per annum in pool, somebody only one or two American pros are capable of doing, you are lucky to keep $30,000 in your pocket after expenses, chop-chops with backers, savers, and all of the other incidental expenses that inevitably happen when you live out of a suitcase. It is a rich man's high, this pool lifestyle. You must come in first, second, or third place in every single tournament you compete in if you want to break even. If you don't, then you're stuck the entire time. The vision of a dog chasing his tail comes to mind.

Today, pool's Hall of Famers are sleeping in flea-bag hotels that rent by the hour. Why? Because they have no home, no loving spouse, no children, no grandchildren, no decent car, no savings, no nest egg, nothing, nadda.

If I had a crystal ball when I was 16 years old to become a pool player pro or go to college and become an engineer or some other profession and could see what my life would be like when I turned 50 years old as a professional pool player, I think any sane person would make the right decision.

Pool used to be romantic and glamorous, being on the road, driving from town to town, getting in action every day. Today, a player walks in a pool room looking for action, and his picture will be taken on somebody's cell phone and posted on AzBilliards pool forum asking if anybody knows him, trying to get the line. Gone are the days of the road warriors, thanks to the advent of Internet technology.

Gone too are the days of the American professional player. I've said it before, many years ago right on this forum, and I will say it again. The existing lot of American professional players is dwindling. Lucrative pool tournaments are being held overseas, and the majority of American pros cannot afford to travel there to win 10- or $20,000, only if they win. If they lose or come in second, third, or fourth place, they're stuck. What kind of incentive is that to play professionally?

Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be pool players unless you live in the Philippines. ;)
 
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..... Do you think there's money to be made in pool? ....................................................


Many years ago a pro player named Jeff Carter used to say that one has to win the lottery and have money to be able to play in a Pro Billiards Tour.:cool:
 
Most of JAM's opinion makes sense. But pro players don't complain much about it. In the past year the issue has been about ensuring that the stated prizes are paid. Whether or not the prize money is enough to support them, players pushed to ensure that the current prize money gets paid out.


Making sure you get paid is about as common as a problem as they come. Getting paid your worth is everyone's work incentive.


Getting paid your worth is a common issue in corruption.
 
You do understand my thoughts about this topic correctly. :)

I don't think just because a guy can run a rack or two, he is warranted to make big bucks. I do think if the BCA is pretending to be the representative entity of American professional pool, they should at least try do something about the sad state of affairs. Rules are changed willy-nilly behind closed doors to accommodate players of choice. The organization is *not* transparent.

Over the years, they have dropped professional pool players from their radar screen...

It is pretty apparent the BCA has lost interest in people playing pool or following the professional game and has become more focused as an industry trade group only interested in helping its members sell more equipment, accessories, and the like. I say this because they got out of the pool league business, aren't even involved in the rules anymore but rather just follow the WPA rules set, and have dropped running any professional tournaments altogether.

But I feel the BCA is either overlooking the fact (my opinion really) or simply disagree with my view that these foregone activities could very well go hand in hand with their members selling more product. It just seems logical to me that by developing the professional game (i.e. a tour) and nurturing interest in pro pool, they would go a long way towards increasing the overall interest in the game and bringing in more new players - that would then go out and get tables or frequent their local pool hall, buy cue sticks, cases, repair equipment and tools, covers, balls, chalk...yada yada.

Perhaps there is a slight hint of a shift in the BCA's disinterest of the last few years. They did step in and got involved in the ABP / US Open dispute. But perhaps they also feel that a viable pro tour in the US is a long shot at best, and not just for the usual reasons that are always mentioned (it's boring, doesn't appeal to the non-player, etc.). Let's face it, a real solid and economically productive pro tour in the U.S. is against the interests of numerous entities that stand to lose money if it happened. Say a pro pool tour is developed that was only 1/10th of the current golf tour. Weekly events about 40 times a year with a prize fund that included $100K (or even $50K) to the winner. How would that impact all the the smaller $5K to $25K added events out there? What "prestige" would the WPA continue to hold as the de facto power that be if everyone began looking at the U.S. tour as the driving force in pool?

It's a complicated issue to say the least. And while many think whoever came in to provide this would be looked at as the Second Coming, I'm not so sure that's true.
 
Steve Mizerak worked until he was 36 years old.
At that point pool was paying him very well and teaching school was
starting to interfere with his income rather than enhance it.

So I think if a young person thinks he has a chance of going pro...
...play part time until you're doing so well that you can't afford to work.
 
You are trying to change decades of pool. Not saying your are wrong but, Hawaii will get 2 feet of snow before that happens.

It actually DOES snow in Hawaii. They say you can go surfing in the morning and snowboarding in the afternoon.
 
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