New Stroke vs Old Stroke

[OLD NO 9]

The other day I was talking with an old friend of mine and the conversation turned to how good a certain pro players stroke was. That got me thinking about what is meant by a good stroke. Does it mean the same thing in 2016 as it did in the mid 1960's when we started our obsession with the game of pool.

My observation was that the look and fundamentals of a well tailored stroke remain primarily the same, but that its overall use is different.

By this I mean that when we first started out we used english to make the cue-ball move forward, backward, sideways or even stop and that is still the same today as it was when I first started playing.

Here is what I think is different. In the old days a good stroke allowed a person to move the cue-ball around with less force than someone with a not so smooth stroke. Today I feel the same smooth stroke is used as much to slow down the cue-ball as it is to make the cue-ball travel farther.

In a nutshell what I feel has changed is that english applied with a good stroke, is still a vital part of the game, but is used more to restrict cue-ball travel nowadays as opposed to aiding in cue-ball travel in yesteryears.

I'm hoping at least a few azer's out there understand what I'm trying to convey?

 

[barrymuch90]

I like this observation and this is the first time I've thought about it I believe u r spot on before diamond(boingy) rails Simonis cloth advanced object and cue balls a powerful smooth stroke was a huge necessity and only then could you move the cueballaround the table with accuracy. On the flip side, as u mentioned, today's conditions are polar opposites in some aspects and with these conditions the most helpful and desired knowledge pertains to killing,dragging, holding, stopping, or moving a few inches with accuracy n precision.

Good point n nice topic I havnt seen discussed before.

 

[greyghost]

The other day I was talking with an old friend of mine and the conversation turned to how good a certain pro players stroke was. That got me thinking about what is meant by a good stroke. Does it mean the same thing in 2016 as it did in the mid 1960's when we started our obsession with the game of pool.



My observation was that the look and fundamentals of a well tailored stroke remain primarily the same, but that its overall use is different.



By this I mean that when we first started out we used english to make the cue-ball move forward, backward, sideways or even stop and that is still the same today as it was when I first started playing.



Here is what I think is different. In the old days a good stroke allowed a person to move the cue-ball around with less force than someone with a not so smooth stroke. Today I feel the same smooth stroke is used as much to slow down the cue-ball as it is to make the cue-ball travel farther.



In a nutshell what I feel has changed is that english applied with a good stroke, is still a vital part of the game, but is used more to restrict cue-ball travel nowadays as opposed to aiding in cue-ball travel in yesteryears.



I'm hoping at least a few azer's out there understand what I'm trying to convey?

Simonis wasn't red hot scalded dog arse fast back then. Balls were less precise as well and were softer and even the Dulled but smooth surface is slower.....

Pool halls had better cared for equipment then

Now it's all bars in general and many learn to play on the 7fts which aren't well kept and lean....many of those have decently fast cloth and to hold the rock on many shots you can shoot soft or hard and use hold and backspin to stop the action when you need speed to keep its path straight since it will roll off.

My best guess is a gazillion crappy tables and its effects.

Tho most of the pros and best/master players do what's necessary and is best for each


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nick serdula]

I wouldn't know

I have no stroke.
I hear it is real good too!
That and these days just follow everything.
Pools has devolved,
Nick

 

[Straightpool_99]

Behold the modern stroke, in all its glory:
https://youtu.be/cG1f9STBpaA?t=900

This wouldn't fly back in the old days. That kind of stroke cannot move the cueball much on slow rails and slow cloth. Not in snooker either, especially not club tables. Modern match snooker tables have very fast cloths and super fast cushions, so I guess we theoretically could see this sort of stroke there as well, HOWEVER, on the larger surface the smooth action does give you good speed control. The overall technical standard is so high, that this kind of short jerkiness would be a larger disadvantage than in pool, IMO.

 

[one stroke]

Strokes in the days of 14-1 were different than the 9 ball players who followed then we have the Filipinos who came in with a rocking stroke , then the x snooker players with yet a different stroke ,so now we have a plethora of strokes ,,
However as pool moves forward and more players are emerging who are not self taught but taught thru instruction I think most players will eventually have similar strokes , like golf ,, but you will still have a few different ones but most will be the same


1

 

[mikemosconi]

As someone who learned to play on 1960s equipment, I believe that you are very correct in your observation. My greatest challenge to this day is to slow down cue ball movement with my stroke. Today you have to be able to "throw a change- Up" with your stroke- not a fastball. That is my baseball pitching analogy to the pool stroke evolution due to cloth/table/ball evolution in the sport
This means that you have to keep your focus on the object ball for a slightly longer period of time while executing your stroke- it makes the game a bit more difficult today. Also, just look at the pocket size and pocket shelf depth on older tables and you can readily see how pockets more readily accepted a harder stroked ball.
It would take any pro from the 1960s quite some time to adapt to today's playing equipment, some of them would just not make it today.

 

[one stroke]

As someone who learned to play on 1960s equipment, I believe that you are very correct in your observation. My greatest challenge to this day is to slow down cue ball movement with my stroke. Today you have to be able to "throw a change- Up" with your stroke- not a fastball. That is my baseball pitching analogy to the pool stroke evolution due to cloth/table/ball evolution in the sport
This means that you have to keep your focus on the object ball for a slightly longer period of time while executing your stroke- it makes the game a bit more difficult today. Also, just look at the pocket size and pocket shelf depth on older tables and you can readily see how pockets more readily accepted a harder stroked ball.
It would take any pro from the 1960s quite some time to adapt to today's playing equipment, some of them would just not make it today.

I've played in both era's I found changing cue weights made the biggest differance I played with a 21 oz cue back in the day I play now with a 18
Iv actualy done some tests with the different weight cues you would be surprised on the difference between the 2 when hit at same stroke speed , pocket size selfs and such don't affect pro's almost every pro I know wants the hardest conditions
One of the biggest things that separate pro's from Am's is thier ability to adjust to table conditions since I can't always do it on feel I simply change cues and or change angles or play more stun shots pro's are pro's for a reason , they do it much easier
I don't by into the fact some old pro's could not adjust infact I think it's much easier today since they play mostly on the same cloth and in conditioned air the variables are much less they could easily adapt

1




1

 

[Gorramjayne]

Watching old-time matches like Mosconi, Fats, Caras, these guys are using thick high-deflection cues (which are more forgiving of a flamboyant stroke) on slow cloth, often on shorter tables, with wider pockets, and they're lining up standing almost as tall as 3-cushion players, and often times swinging across their body, not even stroking the same way shot to shot. That would never fly today. Even watching the difference in some active players between their 1990s matches and today shows you they have really incorporated at least some more technical form into their stroke in the last 15 years, guys like Efren, Earl, Bustamante.

Like others have said, the faster cloth, tighter pockets, and more consistent equipment makes for a different method of precision. Pool players are now face down on the table like snooker players because they need to be more accurate. Note watching the 60s era play, players sometimes are standing completely sideways to the table, dropping the cue through. Now pool stances are much more pointed towards the table because if you tried to get your chin right over your cue standing sideways, you'd develop serious neck problems in no time. And as time goes on the players who perform most consistently are tending to be Europeans who generally have a more disciplined and technical stroke. Feijen is like a pool playing robot, he always sets up perfectly the same every single time and executes like a machine. Especially in events like Chinese 8-Ball, compact strokes and low square stances, while less flashy and not geared for artistically powering out of tricky situations, are being successful in grinding out disciplined wins.

I've played in both era's I found changing cue weights made the biggest differance I played with a 21 oz cue back in the day I play now with a 18
Iv actualy done some tests with the different weight cues you would be surprised on the difference between the 2 when hit at same stroke speed ,

Sure, but the effect of cue weight also depends upon stroke style! When I was just starting out I had a hand-me-down 21oz cue, self-taught, using whatever style came naturally, which was gentle flowing stroke, and I had good control over my speed even on fast tables. I tried playing with somebody's 18 oz was bewildered that the ball just wanted to spin more than it wanted actually go down the table, the ball just didn't want to go very far.

Then I took up snooker, which infected my pool game, and now I'm playing with a 17.7 oz cue, because when I'm in a good snooker stance with my shoulder and elbow lined up where they should be, I can feel my elbow tendons tighten a bit like a rubber band, and a when I take the shot, the light cue can be brought through with an incredibly short, swift, and accurate motion, letting me move the CB in all directions better than a cue much over 19 oz. This is backwards from a more pool-like stroke where you'd prefer some more weight to build up energy and stability through the longer arc of your stroke.

 

[Jimbojim]

Interesting thread, the speed of the table has definitely changed over the years as far as I can tell from watching old matches.

I kinda prefer the slower tables as it let me really stroke the ball where on a faster table, you better have the exact angle you want or you're completely losing the cueball and need to plan out a different path for position.

 

[Skratch]

The other day I was talking with an old friend of mine and the conversation turned to how good a certain pro players stroke was. That got me thinking about what is meant by a good stroke. Does it mean the same thing in 2016 as it did in the mid 1960's when we started our obsession with the game of pool.

My observation was that the look and fundamentals of a well tailored stroke remain primarily the same, but that its overall use is different.

By this I mean that when we first started out we used english to make the cue-ball move forward, backward, sideways or even stop and that is still the same today as it was when I first started playing.

Here is what I think is different. In the old days a good stroke allowed a person to move the cue-ball around with less force than someone with a not so smooth stroke. Today I feel the same smooth stroke is used as much to slow down the cue-ball as it is to make the cue-ball travel farther.

In a nutshell what I feel has changed is that english applied with a good stroke, is still a vital part of the game, but is used more to restrict cue-ball travel nowadays as opposed to aiding in cue-ball travel in yesteryears.

I'm hoping at least a few azer's out there understand what I'm trying to convey?

I use the term stroke to describe the mechanical motion of the shooter's arm (shoulder to wrist). All strokes aim to move the cueball around in a manner that is controllable for the desired effect. Some of the arm mechanics lend themselves better than others for the desired cueball effect. You'll notice how every player has a stroke style. For instance, many beginners have a jab / punch stroke. This is because they are not yet familiar with how much speed they need to generate. The more experienced players have a smoother stroke as they have already learned how much speed is needed and can stop the cue in a forward position. The jab stroke pulls back at the end because the beginner does not know how to control the speed and chokes it back at the last moment. There's also a stiff stroke and loose stroke. You'll see someone like Bustamante have a more pendulum stroke compared to someone like Immonen who keeps his cue more in a straight line. Some are like Efren who seems to hold the cue very loosely at the wrist.
As it may be framed in game format: Many positions in a game like 14.1 require smaller cue ball travel over the length of the game. Rarely do you want the cue to travel the length of the table to make your next shot. You would then be using a smaller stroke style to prevent getting out of shape. In a game like 9ball, you are often required to have a bigger stroke to get into shape. For those who play carom games, you'll notice that straight rail requires the most gentle of shots usualy as the balls are gathered, but in 3C you are forced to give fuller strokes to make your point. Sorry for the wordy comment for something so simple. Good Luck.

 

[softshot]

I like this observation and this is the first time I've thought about it I believe u r spot on before diamond(boingy) rails Simonis cloth advanced object and cue balls a powerful smooth stroke was a huge necessity and only then could you move the cueballaround the table with accuracy. On the flip side, as u mentioned, today's conditions are polar opposites in some aspects and with these conditions the most helpful and desired knowledge pertains to killing,dragging, holding, stopping, or moving a few inches with accuracy n precision.

Good point n nice topic I havnt seen discussed before.

More to do with cloth differences IMO new cloth is significantly faster the strokes haven't changed the playing field has.

 

[Ak Guy]

Good thread.

I will follow this thread and bet I learn some thing. My inconsistent stroke causes me problems and quickly adjusting to a table is hard for me.

 

[Gorramjayne]

There's also a stiff stroke and loose stroke. You'll see someone like Bustamante have a more pendulum stroke compared to someone like Immonen who keeps his cue more in a straight line. Some are like Efren who seems to hold the cue very loosely at the wrist

Oh, I don't know that I'd call Bustamante's stroke a pendulum. To me, pendulum means that (at least through contact with the CB) your elbow doesn't move at all relative to your body, it only hinges. 'Pendulum stoke' refers to your forearm being a pendulum around your elbow, whether the cue moves like it's on a pendulum depends on how you grip it and even with a crazy elbow movement you can get a 'swoop stroke' where the cue falls down into the cueball and seems to swoop through and up at the end. Bustmante has an extreme example of a lift/fall swoop stroke, where the player strokes by dropping the butt of the cue as he pulls back, raises at the end of his back swing, and drops the cue through going forward. He shuffles his hand and his elbow and shoulder are moving like crazy. You'd want to break a beginner of this immediately, but by dramatically raising and lowering the butt, he manages to use gravity to get an accurate feel for the cue's line and energy. Dropping the butt on the back swing was much more common back in the day, but some newer players do it (usually to a less severe degree). Caras is a good old-school example, SVB is a new-school example. Immonen is a little strange in that on his practice strokes he stays very loose, looking like he strokes like this, but on his final stroke his elbow stays put and he comes through the ball more cleanly.

Even for two players with a the same stance and arm movement, the way the cue travels through the stroke (arcing vs coming through flat) can depend very much on where and how the cue is gripped. Efren actually keeps a fairly quiet elbow that looks fairly standard but he grips fairly forward on the cue and his wrist is turned in towards his body a little more than usual and that actually requires him to keep such a loose wristy shuffle grip on the cue so his wrist can hinge in multiple axes through the stroke, if he kept it any stiffer he's pull the cue off line.

Feijen and Hohmann have a similar elbow movements but feijen holds the cue very loosely a little closer to his hip, and Hohmann grips it firmly a bit further away from the body and near the back of the cue and that gives them very different follow-throughs.

Where the creases of your fingers (or in some players cases just their fingertips) sit on the cue, whether you wrist tucks in towards your body or points away, whether your wrist points slightly forward down the cue or not, how far back you grip on the cue, and your standard pressure, will all drastically affect how the cue moves during the stroke, whether you pendulum, piston, j-stroke, sidearm, or Bustie it.

 

[Skratch]

Oh, I don't know that I'd call Bustamante's stroke a pendulum. To me, pendulum means that (at least through contact with the CB) your elbow doesn't move at all relative to your body, it only hinges. Bustmante has an extreme example of a lift/fall stroke, where the player strokes by dropping the butt of the cue as he pulls back, raises at the end of his back swing, and drops the cue through going forward. He shuffles his hand and his elbow and shoulder are moving like crazy. You'd want to break a beginner of this immediately, but by dramatically raising and lowering the butt, he manages to use gravity to get an accurate feel for the cue's line and energy. Dropping the butt on the back swing was much more common back in the day, but some newer players do it (usually to a less severe degree). Caras is a good old-school example, SVB is a new-school example. Immonen is a little strange in that on his practice strokes he stays very loose, looking like he strokes like this, but on his final stroke his elbow stays put and he comes through the ball more cleanly.

Even for two players with a the same stance and arm movement, the way the cue travels through the stroke (arcing vs coming through flat) can depend very much on where and how the cue is gripped. Efren actually keeps a fairly quiet elbow that looks fairly standard but he grips fairly forward on the cue and his wrist is turned in towards his body a little more than usual and that actually requires him to keep such a loose wristy shuffle grip on the cue so his wrist can hinge in multiple axes through the stroke, if he kept it any stiffer he's pull the cue off line.

Feijen and Hohmann have a similar elbow movements but feijen holds the cue very loosely a little closer to his hip, and Hohmann grips it firmly a bit further away from the body and near the back of the cue and that gives them very different follow-throughs.

Where the creases of your fingers (or in some players cases just their fingertips) sit on the cue, whether you wrist tucks in towards your body or points away, whether your wrist points slightly forward down the cue or not, how far back you grip on the cue, and your standard pressure, will all drastically affect how the cue moves during the stroke, whether you pendulum, piston, j-stroke, sidearm, or Bustie it.

Thank you for the various examples. This is a better description of my meaning of strokes styles.