New twist on common rules question. Jawed balls.

Cuebacca

Cuebacca

________
Silver Member
OK, so this question comes up all the time. Say you have balls that get stuck as described in this rule (BCAPL):

1.47 Jawed Balls
If balls are wedged between the sides of a pocket or between cushions and any of those balls are suspended in the air, the referee will inspect the balls and judge whether, if they were free to fall directly downward, the balls would come to rest on the bed of the table or in the pocket. The referee will then place the balls in the positions as judged and play will continue.​

But as a new twist, say the knuckleheads didn't bother to ask a ref and just kept whacking away at the jawed balls for several shots until they finally realized the balls were never going to fall.

What do you do when they finally call a ref over? Do you proceed to remove the balls under this rule for whoever's turn it is at that point? Or do you basically call this game as tainted or stalemated due to the repeated beating of dead balls and have them re-rack and play again with the original breaker re-breaking?

The latter choice is probably how I'd rule it without knowing better, but I'm curious if that's correct.

Sorry if this is in the rule book somewhere or if I should have logically pieced a ruling together from other rules. I just thought it was interesting and maybe worthy of a thread. :)
 
Out of all the years I have played, this has never come up. Very unlikely situation.

...I have no answer to your question. :(
 
jason said:
Out of all the years I have played, this has never come up. Very unlikely situation.

...I have no answer to your question. :(
Click to expand...

Right? It's really rare to see. But you'd be surprised how often this thread comes up. And last night, it happened on the table next to me. :scratchhead: Next week, it could happen to you! :grin-devilish: :)
 
I've seen it 3 times in my life, most recently about 2 weeks ago where someone asked me what the rule was.

I didn't know it was possible to hit those balls and they still fail to fall in, I'd think having the CB hit them at any speed should be enough to dislodge them. If not, I guess you treat those as just failed shots, and it's nobody's fault for failing to have a ref correct the situation, and you have them go down and keep playing with the incoming guy's inning. That's just my guess though, there may be an official answer.
 
I've only encountered this once at a pool hall in Dallas. The CB was one of the wedged balls and it was my shot. The other ball was one of my balls. I shot the CB out and the other ball fell in........:grin::grin::grin:
 
i believe the correct rule is jawed balls are down balls. this just happened last week. my ruling was the balls were down. no part is touching the green they have left the "playing surface"

they can get pretty wedged in the tho lol

if the two guys are smart enough to keep trying to shoot them then i dont know what to say. rerack

ive also seen the cueball hop the table and come to rest on the rail. what do you do? shoot? no... again rail is not "playing surface"
 
BCAPL response upcoming

No surprises here - BCAPL 1.47 pretty well covers it as already noted. Just confirming one very fine detail. Will have the answer up tomorrow.

There will be some good ancillary observations...:)

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee (WOW!! very humbled to be promoted :grin: )
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
 
tatcat2000 said:
No surprises here - BCAPL 1.47 pretty well covers it as already noted. Just confirming one very fine detail. Will have the answer up tomorrow.

There will be some good ancillary observations...:)

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee (WOW!! very humbled to be promoted :grin: )
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Click to expand...

Thanks, TatCat! Looking forward to your follow-up post. :)
 
Official BCAPL response

OK - got it. Sorry for the delay.

As stated before, BCAPL Rule 1.47 applies:

"If balls are wedged between the sides of a pocket or between cushions and any of those balls are suspended in the air, the referee will inspect the balls and judge whether, if they were free to fall directly downward, the balls would come to rest on the bed of the table or in the pocket. The referee will then place the balls in the positions as judged and play will continue."

The catch here is that Rule 1.47 only applies when one of the jawed balls is suspended over the bed of the table. If both of the balls are in contact with the bed of the table, you simply play on. This is not new - that was the rule at least since the 2003 version of WSR. As far as I can tell, the 2008 version of WSR does not address jawed balls.

I would never say it was impossible for two balls to be wedged so tightly that they could not be dislodged by strking one of them hard enough with the cue ball, but I would agree that it would extremely unlikely. If I were called to a table in this situation and the balls were jawed and both on the bed, I would simply instruct the next shooter to continue.

If the jawed balls were the last two balls on the table, and I observed a jawed ball struck hard and not dislodged on at least two shots, I might be inclined to call a stalemate, or I might not. It would just depend on the situation. Note that if the players agreed on a stalemate, a referee's presence or approval is not necessary. BCAPL Applied Ruling 2.11 applies.

As far as what happens when you "finally call a ref over": the "finally" part is of no consequence. For each individual shot, you either call a ref or you don't, a ref is either there or not. When the ref arrives, all the prior shots are irrelevant. The ref will make a judgement on the next shot.

The ref could also be standing near the table, and might even see the "whacking away" going on, but they will not intervene unless they are summoned to the table. That has long been the case when referees have responsiblility for more than one table, and the practice will be codified by rule in the next edition of the BCAPL Rule Book.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee (WOW!! very humbled to be promoted :grin: )
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rul...2/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
Buddy, thanks for your post! It's great to have you here providing information like this. What you said about the ref makes sense.

I am surprised though about the catch in Rule 1.47. I see what you mean about the term, "suspended in the air", but I just took that to mean that the base of the ball is suspended in the air, not necessarily that there has to be air between the ball and the slate.

I never would have guessed this from reading that rule, so I am very glad to have the inside scoop that you have been providing to us.

I hope you do not mind my asking, why is this a requirement for the "jawed balls" rule to apply? In the spirit of this rule, what is the difference if the balls are touching the slate or not?

If base of the ball is not touching the slate, the ball should be out of play, IMO; A ball should only be considered to be on the playing surface if it is supported only by the playing surface.

I don't mean to argue with you or put you on the spot. I know you didn't write the rule. I just think this rule should be reviewed.

Are you sure that the WPA rules this the same way? Here is the wording of their version:

8.3 Ball Pocketed

A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.

If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter’s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.​

There is no mention of being suspended in the air in the WPA version, although I suppose "being near the brink" might imply "close to the slate but not touching". In any case, I don't understand why the rule would allow balls to remain in play when they are in such a position. I guess I can take comfort in the fact that this situation rarely comes up. :)
 
Cuebacca said:
OK, so this question comes up all the time. Say you have balls that get stuck as described in this rule (BCAPL):

1.47 Jawed Balls
If balls are wedged between the sides of a pocket or between cushions and any of those balls are suspended in the air, the referee will inspect the balls and judge whether, if they were free to fall directly downward, the balls would come to rest on the bed of the table or in the pocket. The referee will then place the balls in the positions as judged and play will continue.​

But as a new twist, say the knuckleheads didn't bother to ask a ref and just kept whacking away at the jawed balls for several shots until they finally realized the balls were never going to fall.

What do you do when they finally call a ref over? Do you proceed to remove the balls under this rule for whoever's turn it is at that point? Or do you basically call this game as tainted or stalemated due to the repeated beating of dead balls and have them re-rack and play again with the original breaker re-breaking?

The latter choice is probably how I'd rule it without knowing better, but I'm curious if that's correct.

Sorry if this is in the rule book somewhere or if I should have logically pieced a ruling together from other rules. I just thought it was interesting and maybe worthy of a thread. :)
Click to expand...

i think they should play the game out, and the player who has enough power, and skill, to knock the balls in question into the hole should immediateltely win the game :)

i think the ref should decide based upon the above stated rule as he comes over. it shoud not matter what happened before that.
 
mooseman said:
I've only encountered this once at a pool hall in Dallas. The CB was one of the wedged balls and it was my shot. The other ball was one of my balls. I shot the CB out and the other ball fell in........:grin::grin::grin:
Click to expand...

lol priceless.

*has seen the jawed ball situation come up several times*
 
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