Niels Feijen's approach to aiming with and without side spin

[Bob Jewett]

... There really isn't a good system for this or if there is, I haven't found it. I think maybe the easiest would be BHE, but it too is subject to variability. One could at least teach that to beginner in a half-assed manner to get them close on most shots. Center pocket on all shots at all speeds...no, needs practise and more practise.

Dr. Dave has a system that covers a wider range of shots and involves fronthand and backhand english. Here's his page on the subject:

System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS) - Dr. Dave Pool Info

What is the System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS)? System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS) is a full-length instructional video by Dr. Dave that covers a simple and methodical system to find accurate lines of aim for sidespin shots of any distance, speed, and amount of spin.. It is based on...

billiards.colostate.edu

 

[Geosnookery]

Like most Snooker players, I never got caught up in such aiming systems 50 years ago. We concentrated on smooth delivery.

However, when teaching young players ghost ball I add a very simple step. When removing the actual ball ( ghost ball) from the object ball...place a donut sticker where the centre of the ghost ball was, then aim for the sticker. I find some players can’t visualize where to hit after removing the ball, Much easier to aim at the donut. If not sinking the object ball then replace balls exactly where they were on the donuts and adjust a tad for throw, etc.
The ghost ball method is good however newbies can’t always tell ‘why’ they missed. Was it poor aim? Much easier to see the cue ball hit the centre of the donut or than the curve of the object ball.

 

[The_JV]

Now I understand why the recent suggestion for a separate subforum for CTE specifically...

It's not to keep the CTE nay sayers out of the CTE chatter. It's to keep the CTE fans from derailing threads that originally had nothing to do with that system.

 

[BC21]

That is the more traditional "English" way of teaching ghost ball. "Translating" ghost ball to fractional hits. I mean, it's better to have something tangible to aim for, but it doesn't really help with the sidespin, IMO.

It would help if one would for instance translate deflection into 1/8ths pr diamond distance or something. Then we'd be onto something maybe.

Unfortunately it varies with cut angle and speed. Less cut, more throw, more speed less throw+more deflection. There really isn't a good system for this or if there is, I haven't found it. I think maybe the easiest would be BHE, but it too is subject to variability. One could at least teach that to beginner in a half-assed manner to get them close on most shots. Center pocket on all shots at all speeds...no, needs practise and more practise.

It makes using side spin much easier to gage, as far as how much to aim away from your normal reference point if you were going to use no spin. In other words, if it's a 1/2 ball aim shot with no spin, you might find that in order to use left english with normal speed, and from within 2ft or so of the ob, you simply have to aim straight through the left side of the cb to that same 1/2 ball aim point. From 4 to 6 feet away you might find that you have to aim an eighth of ball thicker than the 1/2 ball reference. Once you figure this out, how much to adjust for spin at different distances and speeds, the same adjustments can be applied to any fractional aiming reference.

 

[BC21]

One thing that helps keep the line is to place a ball behind the object ball along the same line and back far enough it does not block the pocket. Then the beginner can check alignment by seeing if the aim line goes to the "distant ghost ball".

That would work, but why not use the ball that's already there for a reference? The ob. No props necessary.

 

[Imac007]

Now I understand why the recent suggestion for a separate subforum for CTE specifically...

It's not to keep the CTE nay sayers out of the CTE chatter. It's to keep the CTE fans from derailing threads that originally had nothing to do with that system.

It’s a struggle to keep other threads from devolving to something other than the original poster‘s topic.

 

[Bob Jewett]

That would work, but why not use the ball that's already there for a reference? The ob. No props necessary.

It gives additional reinforcement of the line of the cue ball with something that's readily available. Sometimes beginners have trouble keeping track of the line. Some have a lot of trouble with the concept of a half-ball hit. Some have trouble with a full hit. I think it's better to have a bunch of ways to get them to the right line when there are problems.

 

[The_JV]

It’s a struggle to keep other threads from devolving to something other than the original poster‘s topic.

Nothing wrong with tangents imo.... That's what keeps conversations interesting. However there's tangents and then there's spamming.

The introduction of CTE in this thread is no different than Harriman derailing every 14.1 thread with J.S. bs....

 

[Imac007]

Nothing wrong with tangents imo.... That's what keeps conversations interesting. However there's tangents and then there's spamming.

The introduction of CTE in this thread is no different than Harriman derailing every 14.1 thread with J.S. bs....

The same tangents, without substantive difference, just become a big stutter.

 

[Poolmanis]

It gives additional reinforcement of the line of the cue ball with something that's readily available. Sometimes beginners have trouble keeping track of the line. Some have a lot of trouble with the concept of a half-ball hit. Some have trouble with a full hit. I think it's better to have a bunch of ways to get them to the right line when there are problems.

This is exactly my thought. And what i use in teaching.

 

[Poolmanis]

BTW. A lot of stuff I learned last years i notice Bob almost always figured it out long time ago.. I see it from his posts all over forums!
Respect from Finland!

 

[BC21]

One thing that helps keep the line is to place a ball behind the object ball along the same line and back far enough it does not block the pocket. Then the beginner can check alignment by seeing if the aim line goes to the "distant ghost ball".

That would work, but why not use the ball that's already there for a reference? The ob. No props necessary.

It gives additional reinforcement of the line of the cue ball with something that's readily available. Sometimes beginners have trouble keeping track of the line. Some have a lot of trouble with the concept of a half-ball hit. Some have trouble with a full hit. I think it's better to have a bunch of ways to get them to the right line when there are problems.

Ok. But my point was this: Using a reference on the ob itself, like the edge or middle or halfway between the edge and middle, is something that is already there and ready to use on every shot, ready to train your mind to recognize the cuts and aim line without having to use any props. That's pretty convenient.

I believe when learning via ghostball, the player may visually focus on an imaginary gb or on a physical ball on the aim line behind the ob as you suggest, but the ob is still being referenced by our vision (whether the player realizes it or not), because it's right there in the path. This is how we are able to develop a good feel for the cb-ob relationships needed to pocket balls.

So it seems to me that instead of consiously ignoring the ob by focusing on a ghostball, knowing our vision is also picking up the ob as a reference (and working with that reference at a subconscious level), a quicker learning method would be to use conscious effort to focus directly on the ob from the start, programming the mind to recognize cb-ob relationships in a straightforward way, not inadvertently by looking beyond the ob to a makeshift distant ghostball or even to an imaginary ghostball butted up against the ob.

 

[Poolmanis]

That would work, but why not use the ball that's already there for a reference? The ob. No props necessary.

Ok. But my point was this: Using a reference on the ob itself, like the edge or middle or halfway between the edge and middle, is something that is already there and ready to use on every shot, ready to train your mind to recognize the cuts and aim line without having to use any props. That's pretty convenient.

I believe when learning via ghostball, the player may visually focus on an imaginary gb or on a physical ball on the aim line behind the ob as you suggest, but the ob is still being referenced by our vision (whether the player realizes it or not), because it's right there in the path. This is how we are able to develop a good feel for the cb-ob relationships needed to pocket balls.

So it seems to me that instead of consiously ignoring the ob by focusing on a ghostball, knowing our vision is also picking up the ob as a reference (and working with that reference at a subconscious level), a quicker learning method would be to use conscious effort to focus directly on the ob from the start, programming the mind to recognize cb-ob relationships in a straightforward way, not inadvertently by looking beyond the ob to a makeshift distant ghostball or even to an imaginary ghostball butted up against the ob.

I use this because it works. I don´t care why. I have my own theory why it works but that does not matter. Main thing is I use what works and make sense. As Bob said beginners have often hard time with aiming line and it is one way to get them past hard start.

 

[BC21]

I use this because it works. I don´t care why. I have my own theory why it works but that does not matter. Main thing is I use what works and make sense. As Bob said beginners have often hard time with aiming line and it is one way to get them past hard start.

I have no doubt that it works. I mean, the player has a real target to aim at, instead of just an imaginary ghostball. I was simply saying another very effective way to do it is like this:

You put the ghostball directly in line with the ob, to show where the cb needs to be in order to pocket the ball, like Niels does with a couple of examples in the video. Then have the player stand behind the cb and study the aim line like he does, but pay attention to where it lands at the ob itself, in reference to the nearest fractional quarter or eighth. Then you can move the ghostball out of the way and the player still has a good solid reference point to use for the aim line.

Years ago I did an experiment with my wife and proved that it's a very effective way to learn aiming, much better than trying to reference an imaginary ghostball.

I realize what you are doing, and what Bob talked about doing, is not the same as what Niels was doing with his ghostball method. Like I said, I like the idea of placing a ball beyond the ob and on the aim line, so the player has a solid reference for aiming. It's just not practical in a game situation, and referencing the ob is always practical, and convenient. So it seems logical to include the ob itself in the visual alignment process of aiming, even when you're using ghostball or contact point aiming. It gives the mind more visual data to work with, like extra handles it can use to help develop a good eye for recognizing cb-ob relationships more easily.

 

[Valiant Thor]

I think he makes too big a distinction between how to aim no-spin vs. spin shots. I'd teach using the same method for both with specific adjustments for spin.

I like that he emphasizes rote practice and keeping it simple.

pj
chgo

Are,you a instructor?

 

[mohrt]

Niels just released this video about aiming.

If I followed the spirit of this forum I’d complain he cut the video between every shot