no call shot 10 ball.

[AtLarge]

The luck factor ... at the end of the day, is not going to effect the outcome enough to warrant making the game less exciting.

I've said this before, but here it is again.

No, you can't totally eliminate the luck element, but you can try to minimize it. The purpose of a pool competition should be to identify and reward the person (or persons) who is (are) playing the most skillfully during that event. Excitement for the audience should not be the objective in most competitions; in fact, such excitement sometimes results from ignorance. A three-rail kick safety is beautiful and exciting; a 10-on-the-break for a win is disgusting.

People often argue that "luck evens out," or winning on a lucky shot, such as a slop-in, is so rare among top players that we shouldn't worry about it. Well, luck may even out over a lifetime, but it need not do so in any given match or tournament. And it's the rareness of the lucky shot that makes it so much more critical. If it happened every second shot, then both players in a match would benefit and suffer fairly equally. But when it happens only rarely, it becomes enormous and can really mean the difference between winning and losing.

I'm sure that everyone who has played a lot has both won and lost a ton of matches because of purely lucky shots -- 9-ball or 10-ball on the break or slopping in a key ball. A loss that way is agonizing. A win that way is less than fulfilling. It's so easy to eliminate some of the game's pernicious luck.

And with WPA 10-ball rules, they have done so.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Calll nothing!!!!

You guys can't see the forest because the trees are in the way. All I need to know is that there is no such thing as a legitimate sport that requires that you "call your shot (play) ". Volumes can be written about why rules are what they are for each sport. A level of chance seems to be good for all sports. Some wrong-minded individuals are trying to sterilize pool. The most successful sport on the planet in the history of mankind would never have such stifling rules. In football, a team enters every play with a precise plan and is in no way required to hold to the plan. Baseball , basketball, hockey, golf, and bowling and on and on... are all this way. We need to take a look at success and emulate it.

I am going to say it again. Called shot Ten-Ball on big tables with tiny pockets will not advance pocket billiards.

 

[sfleinen]

Fantastic post, AtLarge! Sums up the situation nicely, and concisely. I wish I could've said the same thing in all the verbose posts I submitted to this thread thus far.

The part about ignorance is especially true. I cringe when I see a "golden break," and I ESPECIALLY feel hollow when I myself perform one (in 9-ball, that is). However, I mainly prefer to play and watch one pocket and 14.1 matches, which many of the "short attention span / immediate gratification" crowd shudder at. It's because I, like many others here, appreciate true skill and grit.

The WPA's remediation effort of superceding slop 9-ball with call-shot 10-ball (which we should all remember involved the input of the very players that play the game in the arena before us -- the pros) was a very smart move.

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Jay:

With the WPA rules for 10-ball, precisely how is the two-way shot eliminated? In WPA rules, if a player misses a called-shot, as long as no ball is pocketed in the attempt, the incoming player MUST accept the table as-is. It's only certain rule addendums (e.g. the Tony Robles Predator 10-ball and Seminole Tour rules) that say a missed shot -- any missed shot -- is option to the incoming player.

I don't get all these people that keep saying the two-way shot is eliminated in 10-ball. The world standardized rules certainly don't eliminate it.

Sean, I'll field this one for Jay because I was confused about this same comment he made in another thread back in time.

Jay's reference to the two-way shot is the shot that involves going for the legal object ball with the additional objective of going for the money ball as well. The 9 Ball example I gave that seems not that unusual is where say the 1 and 9 balls are close together by a side pocket and you shoot the one to make it up in the corner while at the same time trying to carom the 9 ball into the side for the win.

---------

BTW folks, consider this: Adopting TE rules for 10 Ball will only serve to eventually eliminate both 9 and 10 Ball as we now know them. Be careful what you wish for. I personally like the fact that both games exist and we have a choice of which we want to play.

--------

BTW #2, here's an interesting stat from TAR 21:

Missed ball luck safe win - Shane 0, Alex 0.

 

[sfleinen]

Thanks, Mitch. I admit I was thoroughly confused by Jay's comment about 10-ball's "elimination of the two-way shot." But now that you shared your experience of Jay's interpretation of that phrase, now I understand.

So it stands that 10-ball does eliminate one "type" of two-way shot (i.e. going for two balls at once), but doesn't eliminate the more common / well-known two-way shot, which is a shot at the object ball and a resulting safety for the opponent in case of a miss.

Yes, 10-ball eliminates the "have cake and eat it too" aspect of going for the object ball and the money ball at the same time. But I offer this: 10-ball is a game of EXERCISED COMMITMENT. You *commit* to one ball, or the other. None of this, "well, I'll shoot for my goal, but if the ball hits the goal post and bounces over to the other side of the field into the other goal, it still counts" thing.

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

It just seems to me that this debate, when it come up periodically, is a little misguided in its attempt to change 10 Ball. In fact, these discussion basically all come out of people's problems with 9 Ball and specifically the 9 Ball rack/break. I don't agree that the solution for the problems with 9 Ball is to change the rules of another game.

Do something else to fix nine ball and leave 10 ball alone. Find some other solution that resolves the problems with 9 Ball that don't involve changing the rules of a completely different game. Rack the one in the back and require a kick break. Maybe placing the rack sideways will eliminate a wired ball on the snap. Rack the one in the second row and require the one still be hit first. Rack all nine balls straight down the spot line. Or rack 1 ball in row one, 2 balls in row two, and 6 balls in row three. Use Schofield's no fault rules... Whatever, but LEAVE 10 BALL ALONE. Fix the problem with 9 Ball within the game of 9 Ball.

---

Incidentally, in regard to allowing slop in straight pool, you guys know I'm not one inclined to make derogatory remarks about another's post so let me apologize in advance, but that is one of the dumber things I've read in a long time.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Incidentally, in regard to allowing slop in straight pool I'm not one inclined to make negative remarks about another's post so let me apologize in advance, but that is one of the dumber things I've read in a long time.

You don't need to apologize. 14.1 is irrelevant. It's done. It's finished. It ain't coming back.

The "called ball" does not make pool special. It is possible that it could be a factor in holding pool back from realizing its potential. Other sports know better. We do not.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

You don't need to apologize. 14.1 is irrelevant. It's done. It's finished. It ain't coming back.

The "called ball" does not make pool special. It is possible that it could be a factor in holding pool back from realizing its potential. Other sports know better. We do not.

Interesting take Paul, considering the recent Dragon event was one of the most talked about tournaments in recent times around here and that 14.1 was THE championship game when professional pool wasn't "broken". I don't want to derail this discussion but I would point out that the decline of pool has occurred during the 9 Ball (slop) era. Having said all that, yes, you are correct that 14.1 isn't that significant in professional pool right now but you don't see us that play it wanting to change the rules of it or any other game to fix that. We like the game just the way it is.

Back on topic - fix 9 Ball within the game of 9 Ball. Frankly, the rack isn't a problem to me. I don't have a problem with the wing ball on the break - it is what it is. The problem isn't with the rack but with the rackers. I can't fault the rules of 9 Ball for a problem that actually arises from people that don't play by the rules. But if people do want to eliminate the wired wing ball then just find a way to eliminate it other than by changing the rules of 10 Ball, a completely different game.

 

[justadub]

Thanks, Mitch. I admit I was thoroughly confused by Jay's comment about 10-ball's "elimination of the two-way shot." But now that you shared your experience of Jay's interpretation of that phrase, now I understand.

So it stands that 10-ball does eliminate one "type" of two-way shot (i.e. going for two balls at once), but doesn't eliminate the more common / well-known two-way shot, which is a shot at the object ball and a resulting safety for the opponent in case of a miss.


-Sean

Not to derail the thread, but may I ask a related question about 10-ball? If you make the ball that you called, and another ball (or balls) in addition, does that "other" ball stay down? Other than the 10-ball, of course. What would happen if the 10-ball also went down?

Returning you now to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Interesting take Paul, considering the recent Dragon event was one of the most talked about tournaments in recent times around here and that 14.1 was THE championship game when professional pool wasn't "broken".

Huh? No disrespect but this thing is not even a blip on the radar in the pool world. Never mind that we are trying to get the attention of Joe Public. My interest is in the big picture. I have little interest in our little pool world. I am interested in making our little pool world bigger.

 

[Drew]

Jay:

With the WPA rules for 10-ball, precisely how is the two-way shot eliminated? In WPA rules, if a player misses a called-shot, as long as no ball is pocketed in the attempt, the incoming player MUST accept the table as-is. Shoot the 3 in the corner AND maybe the 10 goes in the side. Shoot the 3 in the side, if you miss it might go in the corner. Those two-way shots It's only certain rule addendums (e.g. the Tony Robles Predator 10-ball and Seminole Tour rules) that say a missed shot -- any missed shot -- is option to the incoming player.I didn't know anyone played by those rules but that should be the way to play this game.

I don't get all these people that keep saying the two-way shot is eliminated in 10-ball. The world standardized rules certainly don't eliminate it.
Did you read the whole thread?


And I, like others, vehemently disagree with the OP that says 10-ball should be played like 9-ball with TE rules. What's the point? Why?!? What benefit does playing 10-ball with TE rules give? A different-colored money ball (i.e. a blue stripe instead of a yellow stripe)? Or, so one can "feel more like a pro, since they are playing the pro's game," but "you'll pry my TE rules from my cold, dead fingers"?

The point of 10-ball is to address all the deficiencies of 9-ball. It is intended, right from the outset, to be a different game.
I agree!! It should be a different game. But by WPA rules, it's the EXACT SAME GAME!! You just got rid of balls going into wrong pockets. According to gromulan, slopped balls decide 2% of the games. But bullsh1t safeties decide games all the time. Wasn't 10-ball supposed to fix the luck? Isn't that why everyone was b1tching about 9ball? So they invented a new game...that's exactly the same as the old one...


The decision is simple:

1. If you want slop/TE, play 9-ball. TE is bolted to the hip of 9-ball, and is the accepted standard way of playing 9-ball.

-- OR --​

2. If you don't want to play by slop/TE rules, you have two more choices:

2a. If you want to play 10-ball (because, like I said, you want to play a game other than 9-ball, and don't fall into that "want to look like a pro playing the pro's game, but don't want to play by the rules" category), and at the same time, you don't want to lose the two-way shot, then play the WPA rules for 10-ball, which state as long as a ball is not pocketed during a missed shot, the incoming player MUST accept the table as-is. Two-way shots are alive and well!

2b. If you want to play 10-ball, and eliminate as much luck as you can -- even if it sacrifices the two-way shot -- then play the Tony Robles Predator tour 10-ball rules, which state the following:

2011 Open/Pro Rules

[...]

7. Call Shot/Safety:

Call Shot:

Players have the option of either calling their shot or calling a safety. Aside from obvious shots, the shooter must specify which ball and which pocket is being called. If a player is shooting a bank, combination or any kind of ambiguous shot, the player must call the shot.

If a player calls a shot and misses, the incoming player will have the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again. No matter how many times a player misses a called shot, failure to pocket that ball legally or wrongfully pocketing the ball in another pocket allows the opposing player the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again.

Call Safety:

If a player calls a safety, the incoming player does not have the option to make his opponent shoot again. The only exception is when a player calls safe and pockets a ball. If a player calls safe, legally hits the object ball and thereafter pockets any ball in their safety attempt, the opposing player has the option to shoot or make their opponent shoot again.​

This is not hard, people. Instead, why are we going around trying to change someone else's game, trying to enforce "our rules" upon someone else's game? And sorry, the excuse of "no no no, 10-ball with TE rules is not 9-ball played with 10 balls; oh-my-gosh that one extra ball adds sooooo much more difficulty" is a cop-out for the "you'll pry my TE rules from my cold, dead fingers" crowd. But it's good to see that those that play 10-ball (those that have been playing it for some time at least, or are standing up 10-ball tournaments in their pool room) are playing it the correct way -- with call-shot rules. It's common knowledge now that 10-ball REALLY IS a different game, and is intended to be so.

-Sean
Thank you. I was not aware of those rules.


P.S.: Obviously, in a gambling match, anything goes -- it's up to the participants to decide ahead of time, and in a gambling match, we see *all kinds* of incredibly goofy and wacky stipulations and conditions placed upon the combatants. But they are not trying to change the rules *for all players of the game to play it this way.* Big difference.

P.P.S.: If you really, really want to remove any sort of luck in the game, then play Bank pool. As we know, banks must go in the precise way they are called, cannot carom off of another ball (must go in CLEAN), and kicks/combos are not allowed. Bank pool is probably the most pristine example of luck-free pool there is.

This brings about a whole new level of ridiculousness. I don't want to have to discuss rules in the beginning of a match. When I watch the Yankees and the Red Sox play, I don't see Francona and Girardi have a 2 hour meeting at the mound to discuss which version of the rules they are going to play by. I don't see the Rose Bowl and the Sugar Bowl playing by different rules.

...but when I watch a 10ball match, I have to ask, "What the hell are the rules of this game?"

The simplest way I can put it: when you see pros playing with 3 distinct sets of rules, then there is something very very wrong with the rules of the game.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Huh? No disrespect but this thing is not even a blip on the radar in the pool world. Never mind that we are trying to get the attention of Joe Public. My interest is in the big picture. I have little interest in our little pool world. I am interested in making our little pool world bigger.

Then offer free table time and $0.25 beer.

John Q. Banger is going to play 8 Ball slop rules anyway with the 8 on the break a win and we don't need to change the rules of 8 Ball either because of this. The casual player hasn't even heard of 10 Ball. Call shot 10 Ball is just not the game most newbies will be first exposed to when entering the pool world. We certainly don't need to change 10 Ball so Joe Banger will pick up the game of pool any more than we need to change anything about 1 Pocket so a beginner will find it more attractive. One of the beautiful things about the game of pool is there are so many different games you can play on a table. 10 Ball just isn't a beginners game and doesn't need to be changed just so the beginning player will pick up the game of pool. Frankly, I believe it is precisely that there are these more "advanced" games that make it more likely the new player will stay with the game for the long haul.

 

[sfleinen]

Not to derail the thread, but may I ask a related question about 10-ball? If you make the ball that you called, and another ball (or balls) in addition, does that "other" ball stay down? Other than the 10-ball, of course. What would happen if the 10-ball also went down?

Returning you now to your regularly scheduled debate.

justadub:

No problem. As long as you make the called ball, all other pocketed balls stay down, with the notable exception, of course, with the 10-ball. (Elaborating on that, if you call, say, the 7-ball [it's the current object ball], and the 10-ball "happens" to go in, the 10-ball immediately gets spotted on the foot spot. However, if you *call* the 10-ball while you're on the 7-ball, as long as you make a legal hit -- hit the 7-ball first -- and then pocket the 10-ball, you win the game. If you call the 7-ball, miss it, but pocket the 10-ball, the 10-ball immediately spots, and you turn the table over to your opponent as-is [WPA rules] or your opponent has option [Tony Robles Predator tour rules].)

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

justadub:

No problem. As long as you make the called ball, all other pocketed balls stay down, with the notable exception, of course, with the 10-ball. (Elaborating on that, if you call, say, the 7-ball [it's the current object ball], and the 10-ball "happens" to go in, the 10-ball immediately gets spotted on the foot spot. However, if you *call* the 10-ball while you're on the 7-ball, as long as you make a legal hit -- hit the 7-ball first -- and then pocket the 10-ball, you win the game. If you call the 7-ball, miss it, but pocket the 10-ball, the 10-ball immediately spots, and you turn the table over to your opponent as-is [WPA rules] or your opponent has option [Tony Robles Predator tour rules].)

-Sean

Actually Sean, in this situation your opponent has the option under WPA rules as well because you wrongfully pocketed a ball (the 10 ball). I know you know this, I'm just pointing it out for justadub so he doesn't get confused.:thumbup:

 

[Pushout]

Sean,
Don't the Predator Tour rules do away with the two-way shot? I know that the WPA rules do not but if I'm not mistaken, the PT rules do. You have to call a shot and if you miss the incoming player can make you shoot again. If you call a safety, the incoming player has to accept the balls as they lie, providing no ball fell on the shot. In a two-way shot, as I understand it, you shoot at a ball with the intention of leaving your opponent a tough shot if you miss. Big if!

 

[sfleinen]

[...]Shoot the 3 in the corner AND maybe the 10 goes in the side. Shoot the 3 in the side, if you miss it might go in the corner. Those two-way shots.
[...]
I didn't know anyone played by those rules but that should be the way to play this game.
[...]
Did you read the whole thread?

What's interesting, Drew, is reading your supposed line-by-line response. You ask me if I read the whole thread -- which I DID, by the way, hence why I posed the question to Jay -- but yet you yourself didn't read the "whole thread." You'll see that only later on in the thread -- when DogsPlayingPool offered information in post #44 that wasn't present in *this* thread -- that it was made clear what Jay was getting at.

I agree!! It should be a different game. But by WPA rules, it's the EXACT SAME GAME!! You just got rid of balls going into wrong pockets. According to gromulan, slopped balls decide 2% of the games. But bullsh1t safeties decide games all the time. Wasn't 10-ball supposed to fix the luck? Isn't that why everyone was b1tching about 9ball? So they invented a new game...that's exactly the same as the old one...

Other than the gross exaggeration about 10-ball being the same game, the point you bring above about the game of 10-ball not totally "fixing" the luck due to slopped safes is a good point. IMHO, it's something that the WPA overlooked, but later tours patched. Don't forget, on the international tournament scene, 10-ball is new game. It's still going through growing pains. Will they fix the rules according to demand (and by "demand," I mean in the spirit of what the rules are supposed to achieve)? Sure, I think so.

This brings about a whole new level of ridiculousness. I don't want to have to discuss rules in the beginning of a match. When I watch the Yankees and the Red Sox play, I don't see Francona and Girardi have a 2 hour meeting at the mound to discuss which version of the rules they are going to play by. I don't see the Rose Bowl and the Sugar Bowl playing by different rules.

...but when I watch a 10ball match, I have to ask, "What the hell are the rules of this game?"

The simplest way I can put it: when you see pros playing with 3 distinct sets of rules, then there is something very very wrong with the rules of the game.

I think this is a gross exaggeration. At *any* tournament, you will see players discussing the rules -- no matter what game it is. There are rule variations in all the other games -- one pocket, straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and yes, 10-ball. THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE PRE-TOURNAMENT PLAYERS' MEETING. You are supposed to attend the pre-tournament players' meeting so that you understand the rules you are supposed to play by.

Baseball doesn't have the same problem pool does with the fact there are so many different "types" of games. There is only one game of baseball. However, there are how many different games in pool? So the analogy with Francona and Girardi having a 2-hour meeting at the mound (another gross exaggeration, because that should've been settled the night before, off the field) is a no-starter -- it doesn't leave the launch pad.

And to your point as to why we may have a couple different rules for a single game in pool (10-ball, in our case), this thread by itself proves it out. We do have a world standardization committee that has set the rules down, yet we have people (e.g. the OP) who refuses to play by those rules, and thinks "his" rules should be adopted by everybody. That's something you don't see in the other sports. Nobody says, in baseball, that 15 innings should be the standard. Nobody says, in football, that we should have five downs instead of four. But yet, here we are, Exhibit A in this very thread, arguing the purpose and validity of the world-standardized rules. And we dare ask why pool is such a fractured sport, that has the problems it does?

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Sean,
Don't the Predator Tour rules do away with the two-way shot? I know that the WPA rules do not but if I'm not mistaken, the PT rules do. You have to call a shot and if you miss the incoming player can make you shoot again. If you call a safety, the incoming player has to accept the balls as they lie, providing no ball fell on the shot. In a two-way shot, as I understand it, you shoot at a ball with the intention of leaving your opponent a tough shot if you miss. Big if!

Pushout:

Yes, please check the rules excerpt I included in post #32.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Actually Sean, in this situation your opponent has the option under WPA rules as well because you wrongfully pocketed a ball (the 10 ball). I know you know this, I'm just pointing it out for justadub so he doesn't get confused.:thumbup:

Mitch:

Yup, you're right -- in my haste to get a reply out on my break at work, me fleet fingers ran faster than my semi-lucid mind was able to catch up to.

The situation I describe where a ball was wrongfully pocketed, both the WPA and Tony Robles Predator tour rules agree -- that's option to the incoming player. Duh! (on my part, of course)

Thanks for catching that!
-Sean

 

[Drew]

What's interesting, Drew, is reading your supposed line-by-line response. You ask me if I read the whole thread -- which I DID, by the way, hence why I posed the question to Jay -- but yet you yourself didn't read the "whole thread." You'll see that only later on in the thread -- when DogsPlayingPool offered information in post #44 that wasn't present in *this* thread -- that it was made clear what Jay was getting at.



Other than the gross exaggeration about 10-ball being the same game, the point you bring above about the game of 10-ball not totally "fixing" the luck due to slopped safes is a good point. IMHO, it's something that the WPA overlooked, but later tours patched. Don't forget, on the international tournament scene, 10-ball is new game. It's still going through growing pains. Will they fix the rules according to demand (and by "demand," I mean in the spirit of what the rules are supposed to achieve)? Sure, I think so.



I think this is a gross exaggeration. At *any* tournament, you will see players discussing the rules -- no matter what game it is. There are rule variations in all the other games -- one pocket, straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and yes, 10-ball. THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE PRE-TOURNAMENT PLAYERS' MEETING. You are supposed to attend the pre-tournament players' meeting so that you understand the rules you are supposed to play by.

Baseball doesn't have the same problem pool does with the fact there are so many different "types" of games. There is only one game of baseball. However, there are how many different games in pool? So the analogy with Francona and Girardi having a 2-hour meeting at the mound (another gross exaggeration, because that should've been settled the night before, off the field) is a no-starter -- it doesn't leave the launch pad.

And to your point as to why we may have a couple different rules for a single game in pool (10-ball, in our case), this thread by itself proves it out. We do have a world standardization committee that has set the rules down, yet we have people (e.g. the OP) who refuses to play by those rules, and thinks "his" rules should be adopted by everybody. That's something you don't see in the other sports. Nobody says, in baseball, that 15 innings should be the standard. Nobody says, in football, that we should have five downs instead of four. But yet, here we are, Exhibit A in this very thread, arguing the purpose and validity of the world-standardized rules. And we dare ask why pool is such a fractured sport, that has the problems it does?

-Sean

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think you see how widespread this problem is. 10ball is played one way in Colorado. It's played a totally different way in Arizona. It's played a totally different way, yet again, in Nebraska. And from what I have just learned, it's played a totally different way in the predator tour. WTF is going on!!

We just watched two of the best players in the WORLD not using the standard rules. I'm not talking about bangers in random bars making up their own rules. I'm talking about pros!! How the hell is a young player supposed to gain any interest in the game if no one can answer a simple question:

Kid: How do you play this game?
sfleinen: Well, if you want to play like this, then these are the rules. But if you like to play like this, then these are the rules. But if you like to play like this, then these are the rules. But if you want to.....
Kid: Eh, forget it.

 

[sfleinen]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think you see how widespread this problem is. 10ball is played one way in Colorado. It's played a totally different way in Arizona. It's played a totally different way, yet again, in Nebraska. And from what I have just learned, it's played a totally different way in the predator tour. WTF is going on!!

And I pose this right back at you! *Why* are players playing three different ways in three different states? It's not like printed/standardized rules don't exist. The rules are printed, they are published, they are known. Yet we have people going off and playing "their own way"?

We just watched two of the best players in the WORLD not using the standard rules. I'm not talking about bangers in random bars making up their own rules. I'm talking about pros!! How the hell is a young player supposed to gain any interest in the game if no one can answer a simple question:

That was a challenge/gambling match! I already pointed that out in my earlier posts (the one you initially replied to, in fact). So, if both Shane and Alex agreed to, say, there would be no jump shots, you're trying to say "how does a young player learn or gain any interest?" from that? This is a straw man argument.

Kid: How do you play this game?
sfleinen: Well, if you want to play like this, then these are the rules. But if you like to play like this, then these are the rules. But if you like to play like this, then these are the rules. But if you want to.....
Kid: Eh, forget it.

Nice dramatization, but a non-starter. For one thing, if someone were to come to me to learn how to play 10-ball, I certainly wouldn't approach it the same way I used to present information in this thread. I would teach them WPA rules. I wouldn't even think twice. Why? Because these rules are published, world-standardized, and well-known. I can literally say, "go here at this URL, and those are the rules." I would play with this person using the WPA rules. Only later, after the person is familiar with the rules, would I even consider offering the notion that there are "rule extensions" that other tours play by.

-Sean