No holy grail?

naji said:
Sorry Lou i do not know when your days was, but today the number of pros is skyrocketing mainly due to the internet era, and everyone is logging in and learning, and many many not yet pros but approaching, all can easily get 90-95% % of pool secrets if not 100% just from AZB, Youtube, DR. Dave's ...etc. There are so many local pros in each state, but we may not know them because they cannot afford travel or wants to remain hustlers, or they simply have other life commitments.

As far as making a pro , you do need a good coach and serious effort in doing so other wise it might end up in failure, for sure you need to have money to start with...
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Mr. Naji,

You may have stumbled onto one of the problems of AZB. Too many of us (including myself) may be stuck in the past & are too often speaking of days gone by.

I heard Jimmie Ferral say the other day that the difference between making it as a pro & those that do not is traveling with a mentor/backer & learning how to win by learning why they lose. He is near Efren's age & said that even Efren did that for a couple of years before many here knew who he was.

His point was that one has to play many types of other players that may not be as 'talented' but have the experience so one can also gain experience in both losing & winning to learn how to win & not lose.

Just a bit of food for thought,

Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Naji,

What Mr. Snead meant was that when you are htting balls well, that is the time to grove it into your subconscious. Yes it would be nice to know why, but he didn't really care why. Mr. Snead was not a very learned man, but Mr. Snead was what we refer to as 'a natural'. He had what has been called the best golf swing of all time. Even when Mr. Snead was in his sixties he could kick out a light bulb on the ceiling with his other foot still on the floor & he could put his hands flat on the floor without bending his knees when he was in his seventies. That's how flexible he was.

What you speak of, knowing why, is what the non-natural talent people want to know. The 'natural talent' people often have no idea how or why they can do what they do. They just do what they do because it works.

I hope this gives you some more insight as to what is meant when someone refers to 'natural talent'.

Best Regards,
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i used to think that until i got the table at home and been practicing "why I miss" for last two years, now i know why exactly i miss, weather stroke, wrong tip placement, miss aim judgment..and few others. IMO, If you do not know why you miss and where OB and CB went after they contacted each other, you will always say i played good yesterday and sucked today. IMO some statements gets carried from the stone age and we continue to use and believe in to make us justify our failure.

How many times you shot like GOD at practice and completely sucked at real match, i bet the answer is not never!


This is the biggest reason why coaches are needed to guide pros and alert them to what they are doing wrong.


Rick lets us make a distinction between the subconscious (such as what english you put, how hard, how soft, position...) from aim and focus, sure i can shoot easy shots with my eye close without thinking, but make larger than 5 diamonds difference between ob & CB now everything is different, and tiny error will make you miss, this is when a pro stops a little and think especially if it means loss of a match.


Natural talent equates to how much you practice using the 4000 shots rules, and know why you miss and how to adjust
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Naji,

What Mr. Snead meant was that when you are htting balls well, that is the time to grove it into your subconscious. Yes it would be nice to know why, but he didn't really care why. Mr. Snead was not a very learned man, but Mr. Snead was what we refer to as 'a natural'. He had what has been called the best golf swing of all time. Even when Mr. Snead was in his sixties he could kick out a light bulb on the ceiling with his other foot still on the floor & he could put his hands flat on the floor without bending his knees when he was in his seventies. That's how flexible he was.

What you speak of, knowing why, is what the non-natural talent people want to know. The 'natural talent' people often have no idea how or why they can do what they do. They just do what they do because it works.

I hope this gives you some more insight as to what is meant when someone refers to 'natural talent'.

Best Regards,
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i used to think that until i got the table at home and been practicing "why I miss" for last two years, now i know why exactly i miss, weather stroke, wrong tip placement, miss aim judgment..and few others. IMO, If you do not know why you miss and where OB and CB went after they contacted each other, you will always say i played good yesterday and sucked today. IMO some statements gets carried from the stone age and we continue to use and believe in to make us justify our failure.

How many times you shot like GOD at practice and completely sucked at real match, i bet the answer is not never!


This is the biggest reason why coaches are needed to guide pros and alert them to what they are doing wrong.


Rick lets us make a distinction between the subconscious (such as what english you put, how hard, how soft, position...) from aim and focus, sure i can shoot easy shots with my eye close without thinking, but make larger than 5 diamonds difference between ob & CB now everything is different, and tiny error will make you miss, this is when a pro stops a little and think especially if it means loss of a match.


Natural talent equates to how much you practice using the 4000 shots rules, and know why you miss and how to adjust
 
lfigueroa said:
There have *always* been obstacles, like other commitments and travel costs, involved with being a pro. That has not changed. And, having played in events like the DCC and Tunica and The US One Pocket Open, (two of those for over 10 years) I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the number of pros is not "skyrocketing" but appears to be dropping. There are just too many distractions for a young player nowadays (the same internet you cite being one of them), the game is too tough, and the potential rewards diminished from before. It's still tougher than ever to assemble a 64 man field willing to cough up the entry fee and expenses and at the DCC the numbers for all events were down around 10% from last year.

Yes, the knowledge base is wider and more readily available today than it was forty years ago, and that has, IMO, raised the general level of play. But the fact remains: not everyone has what it takes to become a pro.

Lou Figueroa
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In the contrary because there are so many pros, other pros see the chances of winning is very low and rather spend thier $$ in local tourneys, which are plenty might i add, or at Vegas, one AZBer said why allow Philippinos at US open, complaining that they have better chance in winning, and less chance for him, not sure if he end up going or what..
 
naji said:
i used to think that until i got the table at home and been practicing "why I miss" for last two years, now i know why exactly i miss, weather stroke, wrong tip placement, miss aim judgment..and few others. IMO, If you do not know why you miss and where OB and CB went after they contacted each other, you will always say i played good yesterday and sucked today. IMO some statements gets carried from the stone age and we continue to use and believe in to make us justify our failure.

How many times you shot like GOD at practice and completely sucked at real match, i bet the answer is not never! Actually there have been times when I don't think it was me shooting but God was using my body, that is kind of like subconscious, & then God had something more important to do and left my body & I was back shooting consciously. IMHO God does not practice, I think he has 'natural ability'

This is the biggest reason why coaches are needed to guide pros and alert them to what they are doing wrong. I agree if the coach is the right person for the player.

Rick lets us make a distinction between the subconscious (such as what english you put, how hard, how soft, position...) from aim and focus, sure i can shoot easy shots with my eye close without thinking, but make larger than 5 diamonds difference between ob & CB now everything is different, and tiny error will make you miss, IMHO The ease or difficulty of a specific shot has nothing to do whether one is playing subconsciously or consciously. this is when a pro stops a little and think especially if it means loss of a match. This might be a time when a player might fall out of or into subconsciousness.

Natural talent equates to how much you practice using the 4000 shots rules, and know why you miss and how to adjust This is where I think you are having trouble understanding what is meant by 'natural talent'. One with natural talent does not have need of much practice. That does not mean that one with natural talent does not practice. However if one does not have much 'natural talent' then one has NEED of much practice. Practice does not give or make one a 'natural talent'. I hope you can see & understand the distinction.
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Mr. Naji,

I wish we had the same native language because I think we miscommunicate sometimes & then get going in diferent directions when we might be headed the same way.

IMHO Closing one's eyes does not take the consciousness of thought out of the picture just as keeping one's eyes open does not keep the subconscious from getting involved. One does not have to exclude all consciousness to have one's subconscious be in control. I know that sounds contrary. It's kind of like a balance dial on a stereo where one side is on more than the other side. We can't actually play in our sleep. We need information to play but we do not need to think about every aspect of what is going on or what we are doing. We can just do it. That puts it on the subconscious side. If we think about everything involved & think about every little thing we do & why, then we are playing very much on the conscious side. I am not saying that we ignore anything or everything & play haphazardly. We should take in the info & let the subconscious mind side deal with it without any interference from the conscious brain side. I'd rather trust my mind than my brain anytime. (opening for a slur)

This is very difficult to explain in one's native language as many that speak english as their native language might not understand anything that I just said. That could be due to either their lack of experience regarding this matter or my lack of ability to communicate it properly. How much more so it must be with a language barrier.

Mr. Nagi, I hope we are getting closer to an understanding.

For those that are wondering, we've had a recent PM conversation.

Regards & Best Wishes,
 
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RedEyeJedi said:
Naji, I have that 'illumination' a lot -- and always wonder, how do I know which of the things I'm doing on those days is making the difference? I usually assume my alignment is just better on those far above average days. Any advice? I try to watch videos of myself to figure it out, but due to prior back problems my fundamentals are so unique I wind up wondering how I'm making any pots at all, much less with total control of the table.

OT/similar, anyone know of instructors with good reputations in the Central Florida-Orlando area?
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Advice:
1-Pick a time of the day when you have the most focus and concentration, most people get that right after good night sleep, if you do not know, just keep a diary of when you see the aim so clearly and you feel you are playing flawless, doing every shot's the check list following through and staying down. (talking of long shots, more than 1/2 ball angle not easy near pocket shots)
2-Now focus and concentration at its best, clean two balls and cb well, and start practice straight combo shots, say a diamond a part and change ob/cb distance, speed of shot, if you do not miss, you pass 1st test
3-now change angle of cb keep obs stright
4-now change obs and cb angles
5- do all over again introducing english, and speed

Make sure balls are cleaned regularly, if you keep missing, no harm in putting spit between obs and cb to rule out throw

After a while you will most likely find that type of stroke and knowing and finding exact pin point aim is the key to good shooting

It is very exhausting drills when you are sharp in focus, try when you are tired!!! good luck.

Best of luck
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Naji,

I wish we had the same native language because I think we miscommunicate sometimes & then get going in diferent directions when we might be headed the same way.

IMHO Closing one's eyes does not take the consciousness of thought out of the picture just as keeping one's eyes open does not keep the subconscious from getting involved. One does not have to exclude all consciousness to have one's subconscious be in control. I know that sounds contrary. It's kind of like a balance dial on a stereo where one side is on more than the other side. We can't actually play in our sleep. We need information to play but we do not need to think about every aspect of what is going on or what we are doing. We can just do it. That puts it on the subconscious side. If we think about everything involved & think about every little thing we do & why, then we are playing very much on the conscious side. I am not saying that we ignore anything or everything & play haphazardly. We should take in the info & let the subconscious mind side deal with it without any interference from the conscious brain side. I'd rather trust my mind than my brain anytime. (opening for a slur)

This is very difficult to explain in one's native language as many that speak english as their native language might not understand anything that I just said. That could be due to either their lack of experience regarding this matter or my lack of ability to communicate it properly. How much more so it must be with a language barrier.

Mr. Nagi, I hope we are getting closer to an understanding.

For those that are wondering, we've had a recent PM conversation.

Regards & Best Wishes,
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Again Rick, i am like you, been shooting pool for almost 30 years, mainly one pocket, the most part i am close to perfect in is moves in one pocket could it be my mind is directing that part of the game, sure, but my shot making only got better in last two years after i dropped the thoughts that i do not have natural talent, oh it is subconsciousness, oh it is this and that. The fact is pool is not easy, every muscle that we command to move does exactly that, but our body is not made of steel, bolts and nuts; therefore, not only subconscious, sure after 30 years playing, some wrong info gets registered, and that old wrong info sometimes take time to be replaced by the good info.
We all are created equal in physical and mental ability (gender/medical issues aside), what is not equal is our ambitions, feelings, desires, dedication, love to the sport that allows us to open the proper channels and allow our mind to accept and want to learn and excel..etc

Sorry i have to run, i hope i did not miss the grammer...later
 
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naji said:
In the contrary because there are so many pros, other pros see the chances of winning is very low and rather spend thier $$ in local tourneys, which are plenty might i add, or at Vegas, one AZBer said why allow Philippinos at US open, complaining that they have better chance in winning, and less chance for him, not sure if he end up going or what..
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If all these guys are hiding from competition I do not think you (or anyone else) can call them pros in the first place ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
FaceBook an hour ago.

ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Jedi,

I hate to say this, but if you have physical limitations, I would think that you would need to find your own way as I suspect that you have. I doubt that an instructor will be able to really help you. The balls can not see you as they falling into the pockets. An instructor may actually do more harm than good. I could be wrong. But that is just some food for thought.

Regards,
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I got back from a weekend trip to Houston and saw a few enlightening things....the best one is what I got on FaceBook an hour ago.....it makes it worth while, I thought I would share for those that have eyes that want to see:

Hi CJ! thanks for the TOI System! i have got kind of weird pool combo! have a Snooker stance and Pinoy bridge & stroke! thought that your System ain't gonna work for me! when i applied the TOI to my practice routine i have got a feeling that position playing is so effortless! its Amazing how it simplify the game! now I'm getting two more people into the same system and they are making balls with ease but they still have Cueing Technique problem as they are new to the game! i think they are lucky to start in the right path instate of wasting years to find it! thanks again CJ! unfortunately that such a great game like pool isn't on the top lists of sports! its the world most played indoor sport and yet the most ignored one! i'm sure that in a different era guys like you, Efren, Strickland,Hall.....ETC would have been a worldwide superstars!
about an hour ago · Like
 
naji said:
Again Rick, i am like you, been shooting pool for almost 30 years, mainly one pocket, the most part i am close to perfect in is moves in one pocket could it be my mind is directing that part of the game, sure, but my shot making only got better in last two years after i dropped the thoughts that i do not have natural talent, oh it is subconsciousness, oh it is this and that. The fact is pool is not easy, every muscle that we command to move does exactly that, but our body is not made of steel, bolts and nuts; therefore, not only subconscious, sure after 30 years playing, some wrong info gets registered, and that old wrong info sometimes take time to be replaced by the good info.
We all are created equal in physical and mental ability (gender/medical issues aside), what is not equal is our ambitions, feelings, desires, dedication, love to the sport that allows us to open the proper channels and allow our mind to accept and want to learn and excel..etc

Sorry i have to run, i hope i did not miss the grammer...later
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Sorry but nothing could be farther from the truth if that were true anyone could have a 100 mph fast ball hit a golf ball 350+ yds run 10sec 100m dashes lift 600lbs and so on

We are all not created equal by any stretch of the imagination ,, CTE TOI ghost ball or any other system and endless amounts of practice will not turn everyone to a pro speed player ,its a pipe dream to believe anything different ..


1
 
Naji,

Thanks very much for the advice, I've really never tried (or heard of) practicing like that, with combos to find a good consistent stroke. I will definitely give it a shot!

CJ,

TOI opened my eyes to angles that never occurred to me before. I always thought a stop shot was the best way to find a natural path off the OB, but you tend to rob yourself of a lot of CB speed and really have to whack it to get it moving if the angle isn't thin, and that's if you do manage to hit it dead center without unintended spin. With a TOI you're always cutting a bit more, and the CB has much more speed to go along the natural path. Cracks me up every time I use a bit too much inside spin and the CB dies on the rail, I always think I know what CJ would say about that! Definitely great help, thank you!

To toss my opinion into the ring regarding natural vs. practice, it's always been my suspicion that anyone can become great at this game, extreme physical limitations aside, especially if they start early in life or practice hours a day with great focus. I think what separates the 95-99th percentile player from the near perfect and god-like worldbeater is the 'natural' part -- some people can just take it that little bit further, and some people have a natural composure in extreme pressure situations. My two cents!
 
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naji said:
Just want to be sure of what is meant of natural talent, to me it means that one is able to see, think, and his/her body healthy and is normal, which is most of the people are, those that are unfortunate and have bad eyes, or mental condition do not have natural talent. Am i correct.
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naji:

I don't know whether, or not, you are correct on the subject of natural talent. I only jumped in here to poke a little fun at my friend, "Lowell" (Lou). :wink:

Roger
 
naji said:
Again Rick, i am like you, been shooting pool for almost 30 years, mainly one pocket, the most part i am close to perfect in is moves in one pocket could it be my mind is directing that part of the game, sure, but my shot making only got better in last two years after i dropped the thoughts that i do not have natural talent, oh it is subconsciousness, oh it is this and that. The fact is pool is not easy, every muscle that we command to move does exactly that, but our body is not made of steel, bolts and nuts; therefore, not only subconscious, sure after 30 years playing, some wrong info gets registered, and that old wrong info sometimes take time to be replaced by the good info.
We all are created equal in physical and mental ability (gender/medical issues aside), what is not equal is our ambitions, feelings, desires, dedication, love to the sport that allows us to open the proper channels and allow our mind to accept and want to learn and excel..etc

Sorry i have to run, i hope i did not miss the grammer...later
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Mr. Naji,

Now I got it! You are talking about my favorite part of sports & life in general.

And... you made my eyes 'water up' from what you put in my eyes. (Real men don't tear up.)

You're taking about the one thing that can not be measured in any way & can not really be taught. One may be able to bring it out but only if it is there to begin with. You are talking about HEART! You may not have natural talent or even very good physical skills, but you have HEART!

I'd rather play on a team of clumsy athletes that all have HEART than a team of prima donnas with all the natural ability in the world but have no heart.

Mr. Naji,

We have been trying to talk about HEART! We've been talking about Rocky Balbo.:wink:

I'm glad we got that cleared up. Now...what were you saying about HEART?

Best Regards, Respect, & Wishes,

PS Mr. Naji,

if we are ever in a pool hall together & I say, 'DUCK!', I don't mean Peking Duck for dinner. I mean, squat down so you don't get hit by that guy swinging a pool cue.:wink:
 
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There are many "layers" to this life experience, don't let anyone fool you.

RedEyeJedi said:
Naji,

Thanks very much for the advice, I've really never tried (or heard of) practicing like that, with combos to find a good consistent stroke. I will definitely give it a shot!

CJ,

TOI opened my eyes to angles that never occurred to me before. I always thought a stop shot was the best way to find a natural path off the OB, but you tend to rob yourself of a lot of CB speed and really have to whack it to get it moving if the angle isn't thin, and that's if you do manage to hit it dead center without unintended spin. With a TOI you're always cutting a bit more, and the CB has much more speed to go along the natural path. Cracks me up every time I use a bit too much inside spin and the CB dies on the rail, I always think I know what CJ would say about that! Definitely great help, thank you!

To toss my opinion into the ring regarding natural vs. practice, it's always been my suspicion that anyone can become great at this game, extreme physical limitations aside, especially if they start early in life or practice hours a day with great focus. I think what separates the 95-99th percentile player from the near perfect and god-like worldbeater is the 'natural' part -- some people can just take it that little bit further, and some people have a natural composure in extreme pressure situations. My two cents!
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Yes, there's a hidden game under the apparent one isn't there. This is also true for many aspects of this game and life in general. The 12 years I didn't compete at pool I trained and taught martial arts and studied NLP....it was amazing some of the "worlds" I discovered between the two.

There are many "layers" to this life experience, don't let anyone fool you. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Naji,

Now I got it! You are talking about my favorite part of sports & life in general.

And... you made my eyes 'water up' from what you put in my eyes. (Real men don't tear up.)

You're taking about the one thing that can not be measured in any way & can not really be taught. One may be able to bring it out but only if it is there to begin with. You are talking about HEART! You may not have natural talent or even very good physical skills, but you have HEART!

I'd rather play on a team of clumsy athletes that all have HEART than a team of prima donnas with all the natural ability in the world but have no heart.

Mr. Naji,

We have been trying to talk about HEART! We've been talking about Rocky Balbo.:wink:

I'm glad we got that cleared up. Now...what were you saying about HEART?

Best Regards, Respect, & Wishes,

PS Mr. Naji,

if we are ever in a pool hall together & I say, 'DUCK!', I don't mean Peking Duck for dinner. I mean, squat down so you don't get hit by that guy swinging a pool cue.:wink:
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man! i thought i was about to get dinner! but bring it on the bigger heart and expertise might have an edge
 
naji said:
man! i thought i was about to get dinner! but bring it on the bigger heart and expertise might have an edge
Click to expand...

Yeah, Id' say Heart can overcome alot of things.

When things really get tight I'd give Heart the edge.

But...when both competitors have Heart, that's when things realy get interesting.

Regards,
 
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