No holy grail?

[JolietJames]

John McEnroe was born the most talented player tennis had ever seen. He practiced and trained and was #1. He could make the ball do things no other player could , past or present.
John has a brother, Patrick. Patrick hit more balls, trained harder, had every chance to succeed. He bacame a pro too but never came close to #1 in his career. He was not born a gifted tennis player; he worked his butt off at it. They are both success stories for sure but natural talent took John to the next level.

 

[JB Cases]

To debate John Barton, how do you know?

Because we have their stories. Find me a person who put in 5-10 hours a day for years who did not become an A player or better.

We have the stories of the successful people. Find me one who said that they rarely practiced and did much less work than their colleagues and yet succeeded anyway.

And we have the studies. West Berlin Music Academy for example out of hundreds of students you would expect to find at least one, just one who had significantly LESS practice than their fellow students at the same skill level. But in fact they did not find a single one, not one. No one who was just as good as the elite performers and yet had way less practice time throughout their life.

Keep looking though and if you find those success stories where people say that they made it on half the work of others then link to them.

 

[SakuJack]

Find me one who said that they rarely practiced and did much less work than their colleagues and yet succeeded anyway.

Why do I need to find that? Have you been reading my posts at all?

Hard work is necessary, not sufficient.

 

[obclassicut]

Hi

Did you play with TOI back then? its weird, i dont see many videos of you playing on you tube. The matches i have seen you use outside english at least 20 percent of the time. I took up the toi technique and i ran 28 racks the first hour of using it, spellbinding stuff.

I've heard everyone has a defining moment when they had to confront themselves in a way that would set the stage for their future. This happened to me almost 30 years ago in a small town bar.......I was 19 years old - me and "Omaha John" were on the road hustling pool, and ended up in a small bar in South Carolina. The owner of the bar was a BIG gambler and would take the 5 and the break from anyone playing on the bar table with the Big Cue Ball.

I had been going through a time when I was "breaking even" with everyone. Usually I would get ahead, then start "letting up," they would come back, "get even" and quit. This was getting annoying and I was beginning to question if I had any "heart," or not.

This was a big thing in the gambling days, if you have the heart to close someone out. To put them away. And it was happening again, I had got up over 2k for $200. a game and now we raised it to $300. a game and the guy beat me 7 IN A ROW and we were just $100. winner.

Omaha John came up to me and said "if you're ever going to be a "road player" you better do it now. I'm not out here "for my health," I have a wife and kid at home and I have to win, breaking even is for "suckers!"

I knew he was serious, so I stopped playing and went to the bathroom. I knew it was "now or never," and I looked in the mirror. Straight into my own eyes and ask "do you really want to be a pool player, do you really have what it takes?" I hesitated slightly, waiting for the answer to come. Not the answer "I wanted to hear," I HAD to know the truth....I needed to know and my life would have to change from that moment on.

I finally knew in my "heart of hearts" that I was ready. Ready to not be a sucker and be "stuck" at my current level, struggling to break even and making up excuses. I was ready to become a winner and break out of that "victim level" and do whatever it takes to learn the Truth about pool and what it takes to be the best. I made that decision right then because I had to. And it's a decision that continues because life's much more about the "journey," than the "destination." Life is the best teacher.

Often times we are held back because we don't have to win, we don't have to get better. I didn't have the luxury that day and I thank Omaha John for putting me in a situation where I had to be honest with myself. No one else matters when you're trying to get to the "next level,"{in life} it's all about ourselves.... it's about looking ourselves in the mirror.

I went back out there and was like an entirely different person. John had been telling me to stop spinning my ball and playing low percentage shots....so I did. Others had made comments about my game that I had ignored because of my ego, so I incorporated those suggestions too.

From that point I beat the guy out of over 8K and he looked like he had been run over by a truck. I didn't care what it took I shot the right shot, in the right way and forgot forever my childish reasons for not playing the Game correctly. To be a Champion at anything we all must keep doing "the next right thing," to get results, not just do "what feels comfortable."

The main thing was I had BROKEN the chains of mediocrity and become a player. From that moment on I had a "6th Sense" about pool and knew what I HAD to practice to improve and what I needed to ignore.

I believe we all have this ability inside us, however, we can't channel it while trying to "make excuses," of why we "can't get better," it's about the decision to either commit to improving OR take a few days off and quitting entirely.


No matter what business I'm in or what game I'm playing I'll always remember that lesson Omaha John Shuput taught me in the little bar in South Carolina...that gave me "eyes" that could look myself in that mirror and "do the right thing." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have learned over time to....... Enjoy Class

Did you play with TOI back then? its weird, i dont see many videos of you playing on you tube. The matches i have seen you use outside english at least 20 percent of the time. I took up the toi technique and i ran 28 racks the first hour of using it, spellbinding stuff.

When I hit my highest gear in pool I was using TOI as a system of play. This didn't restrict me from using any english I wanted, I just didn't force it. The more english you use the more chance of a "miss" fire. imo

When I came back from a 7 year hiatus is when I ran into problems. I tried to play the conventional way because "my mind told me it was better". However, I don't know about you, but sometimes my mind doesn't really know what's best for me....it's natural for me to "desire" to spin the cue ball with outside english....however, I know for sure it's not going to produce my best game.

When I'm stalling I'll naturally spin the cue ball and have fun doing it, and when I want to win I use a touch of inside on all my shots. There's been plenty of times in my earlier career that I had to use both styles to win the maximum money.... Enjoy Class - 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[JB Cases]

Why do I need to find that? Have you been reading my posts at all?

Hard work is necessary, not sufficient.

Because I don't believe you can find any. I can only assume that you have done a ton of searching and the best you could come up with is a person who wrote a book about gifted children and her statement, which you have now appropriated without credit.

I read your posts and listed why I, and science, do not agree with you.

 

[JB Cases]

John McEnroe was born the most talented player tennis had ever seen. He practiced and trained and was #1. He could make the ball do things no other player could , past or present.
John has a brother, Patrick. Patrick hit more balls, trained harder, had every chance to succeed. He bacame a pro too but never came close to #1 in his career. He was not born a gifted tennis player; he worked his butt off at it. They are both success stories for sure but natural talent took John to the next level.

So Patrick became a pro? In other words two brothers with I suppose somewhat equal opportunities both became pros and one was better than the other one?? This is your example of natural talent?

John started when he was 8 years old.

I think that the point is made by your example that anyone with hard work can reach world class. What are the odds that two brothers would both have the "talent" to become world class tennis pros? Not likely I would say. But what did those tow brothers have? The same opportunity and encouragement and Patrick even had the inspiration of watching his older brother succeed. With that he worked harder as you claim and became a professional tennis player reaching as high as 28 in the singles ranking list. That means that out of billions of people, out of hundreds of thousands of tennis players, out of thousands of great players and out of hundreds of top players Patrick Mcenroe was at one time the 28th best player on the Earth.

And as you said he got there by working hard at it.

 

[Husler]

I have seen a lot of phenoms growing up in sport and some plateaued. They then were past by players that were always continually improving there skills.

 

[JolietJames]

Yes John he got there. Just nowhere near his brother. Noone will remember Patrick fifty years from now as anything other than John's brother. The difference between 1st and 28th is talent. John could have beaten Patrick with his shoelaces tied together.

 

[JB Cases]

Yes John he got there. Just nowhere near his brother. Noone will remember Patrick fifty years from now as anything other than John's brother. The difference between 1st and 28th is talent. John could have beaten Patrick with his shoelaces tied together.

Maybe. Or maybe it's not talent but attitude. Maybe an incredible will to win coupled with opportunity is the key. I just read that Federer for example trains in Dubai to make himself stronger under the harshest conditions.

Is that talent then when Federer is number one or just the willingness to sacrifice and not settle for the status quo?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Patrick was very successful and will be remembered, and here are a few reasons why:

Yes John he got there. Just nowhere near his brother. Noone will remember Patrick fifty years from now as anything other than John's brother. The difference between 1st and 28th is talent. John could have beaten Patrick with his shoelaces tied together.

Patrick was very successful and will be remembered, and here are a few reasons why:

Distinctions and honors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_McEnroe

His career-high singles ranking was World No. 28 in 1995.
His career-high doubles ranking was World No. 3 in 1993.
McEnroe served as captain of the U.S. men's tennis team at the 2004 Summer Olympics in Athens.
He is a part owner of the New York Sportimes of World TeamTennis. His brother John is a player on the team.
McEnroe serves as a TV commentator for CBS Sports and ESPN.
He used to be the sports reporter for Imus in the Morning, before quitting on air due to a lack of airtime. He has since returned to WFAN on a trial basis from May 7–9, co-hosting with Chris Russo May 7 and his brother John May 8 and 9, as an audition for the slot formerly held by Imus in the Morning.
He is an analyst for the "1st and 10" segment on ESPN First Take.
He hosts The Patrick McEnroe Show, Saturday mornings from 10-12pm on ESPN Radio New York 98.7 FM.
He also guest hosts for the ESPN program Pardon The Interruption (PTI).
He also co-wrote the book "Tennis for Dummies."
In November 2012, McEnroe was announced as a 2013 recipient of the NCAA Silver Anniversary Award, presented annually to six distinguished former college student-athletes on the 25th anniversary of the end of their college sports careers.[3]

 

[SmoothStroke]

The sponge

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.


Please, if you don't mind and it's not too much trouble, could you tell me in the last 50 years what champions were mentored by champions, or champions that mentored someone who became anything, any noteworthy profession

I am a sponge for knowledge so if you could name 5 or 10, in any aspect of the game, 3 cushion included, that would be plenty for me.
Please feel free to add golf or any other sports; I think there is something to what you said.
Thank you in advance

 

[CJ Wiley]

To reach the top we must be supported and encouraged by many others

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.


Please, if you don't mind and it's not too much trouble, could you tell me in the last 50 years what champions were mentored by champions, or champions that mentored someone who became anything, any noteworthy profession

I am a sponge for knowledge so if you could name 5 or 10, in any aspect of the game, 3 cushion included, that would be plenty for me.
Please feel free to add golf or any other sports; I think there is something to what you said.
Thank you in advance

I won't speak for anyone else because it's a personal matter, however I think most of the Champions will name at least one person that mentored them on at one aspect of their success. To reach the top we must be supported and encouraged by many others that know what it takes to be a high achiever, as well as the dedication and commitment.

Dalton Leong, Omaha John Shuput, Rusty Brandemier, Strong Arm John, Doug Smith, Buddy Hall, "Jr Weldon", Roger Griffis, and a few others added to my game in ways that were essential to my overall success....these are just the pool players, in business there was John Emerick, George Nicholas, Richard Bandler, Dr.Brown, Dr. Winslow, Dr. Arnold Murray, and of course my favorite teacher of all.......THE GAME. :thumbup:

 

[JolietJames]

People who never played tennis know who John is. Most don't even know he has a brother.
People play doubles when they can't compete in singles.
He's the Davis Cup coach too , not that most people know what that is.
Those who can't do, coach they say. (I'm not calling anyone out here! It truly is a saying)
John still plays at a high level on powershares tennis series and is 1st or 2nd in points playing against the likes of Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Wilander...
Pat's probably in the locker room or in the booth...
My point is that talent makes a huge difference.
I think I heard Greg Norman's first round of golf as a kid was something like a 76. That's natural talent for you. If nothing else, talent can let people start half way up the learning curve. I still believe it takes talent to be the very best (imo).

 

[CJ Wiley]

the greatest brother of a great tennis player

People who never played tennis know who John is. Most don't even know he has a brother.
People play doubles when they can't compete in singles.
He's the Davis Cup coach too , not that most people know what that is.
Those who can't do, coach they say. (I'm not calling anyone out here! It truly is a saying)
John still plays at a high level on powershares tennis series and is 1st or 2nd in points playing against the likes of Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Wilander...
Pat's probably in the locker room or in the booth...
My point is that talent makes a huge difference.
I think I heard Greg Norman's first round of golf as a kid was something like a 76. That's natural talent for you. If nothing else, talent can let people start half way up the learning curve. I still believe it takes talent to be the very best (imo).

So are you saying Patrick is a great brother of a great tennis player, or the greatest brother of a great tennis player?

 

[BeiberLvr]

Because I don't believe you can find any. I can only assume that you have done a ton of searching and the best you could come up with is a person who wrote a book about gifted children and her statement, which you have now appropriated without credit.

I read your posts and listed why I, and science, do not agree with you.

I don't understand why you don't believe in some sort of natural talent. Nobody is saying it's just talent and no work, but a combination of the two.

To say that all it takes is hard work and dedication is an insult to those 2nd tier players that have put in the years on the practice table, and still can't play even with the cream of the crop.

Like I already said, people do have limits. A weightlifter, for example, can train for years and get his bench max to 450 lbs. He can continue to train all he wants, but unless he takes steroids, he'll never really exceed that max. And even if he does take steroids, eventually he'll reach a limit for what he can bench on those as well.

Pool is no different.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Look at Cliff Joyner, his "hitches" are even more severe and he still plays great.

I don't understand why you don't believe in some sort of natural talent. Nobody is saying it's just talent and no work, but a combination of the two.

To say that all it takes is hard work and dedication is an insult to those 2nd tier players that have put in the years on the practice table, and still can't play even with the cream of the crop.

Like I already said, people do have limits. A weightlifter, for example, can train for years and get his bench max to 450 lbs. He can continue to train all he wants, but unless he takes steroids, he'll never really exceed that max. And even if he does take steroids, eventually he'll reach a limit for what he can bench on those as well.

Pool is no different.

That's true, and in pool the "steroids" are mostly available to the champion players....in the form of knowledge.

I'm pretty sure if someone with reasonable athletic ability knew the same things I know they would play as well as me....it's really not that physically demanding, and most of us don't have exceptional eye sight.

We do all have limits, however, many are self imposed that aren't purely physical. imo Shane has some strange "hitches" in his stroke, and it doesn't matter because he stays in stroke by practicing 6-8 hours a day. Look at Cliff Joyner, his "hitches" are even more severe and he still plays great.

 

[BeiberLvr]

That's true, and in pool the "steroids" are mostly available to the champion players....in the form of knowledge.

I'm pretty sure if someone with reasonable athletic ability knew the same things I know they would play as well as me....it's really not that physically demanding, and most of us don't have exceptional eye sight.

We do all have limits, however, many are self imposed that aren't purely physical. imo Shane has some strange "hitches" in his stroke, and it doesn't matter because he stays in stroke by practicing 6-8 hours a day. Look at Cliff Joyner, his "hitches" are even more severe and he still plays great.

That to me, is the natural talent of pool. The ability to learn certain shots and nuances in the game, and to recall them when needed.

You can perfect your stroke, but you need a really good memory to become great.

 

[CJ Wiley]

when you're in "that world" you get "that knowledge and wisdom"

That to me, is the natural talent of pool. The ability to learn certain shots and nuances in the game, and to recall them when needed.

You can perfect your stroke, but you need a really good memory to become great.

As long as your exposed to the right information to remember....like the rule with computer programming "garbage in, garbage out" ... when you're in "that world" you get "that knowledge and wisdom"....if you're not, you don't....it used to be that "cut and dry". - 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[JB Cases]

I don't understand why you don't believe in some sort of natural talent. Nobody is saying it's just talent and no work, but a combination of the two.

I understand what people are saying but the science doesn't bear it out.

To say that all it takes is hard work and dedication is an insult to those 2nd tier players that have put in the years on the practice table, and still can't play even with the cream of the crop.

Where are those players? If we REALLY compare their stories with the top tier do we find that they really did put in the work? Is there a 2cnd tier player out there who put 18 hours into his break in a day or a even in a week in his life and didn't develop a killer break.

Like I already said, people do have limits. A weightlifter, for example, can train for years and get his bench max to 450 lbs. He can continue to train all he wants, but unless he takes steroids, he'll never really exceed that max. And even if he does take steroids, eventually he'll reach a limit for what he can bench on those as well.

That is possibly a hardware issue. Unless you are able to map the phyisology of that person compared to others you can't know the full story.

Pool is no different.

No it's not. Which is why the scientific studies that have been done in other sports and activities that have looked for "talent" and not found it also apply to pool.

So, what then separates the very top players from the rest? Talent or more dedication? Well, all the success stories I have ever read point to insane amounts of dedication and training relative to their peers. If you can find some that are different please post them. I am willing to change my mind since I already changed it once from believing in natural talent.