No more Elephant Ivory?!

al-capool

al-capool

Imagine all the people...
Silver Member
Yesterday I've reed in a forum here at AZB something real unbelievable:
From now in all the United States of America it is by applicating the new law, absolutely forbidden to utilize, to sale or resale and even to poccess something made of Elephant Ivory or something which conteins E-Ivory parts! Only exception: The used Ivory must been older than 100 years or a proved piece of history!
If this is all true, whats gonna happen now to all these thousands and thousands of cues which contain Ivory handles, parts and/or Inlays? They're already made and most of them even sold, to so many people everywhere in the USA!
HOW want they to apply this law?
Will they take it away from you, or you have to declare it by yourself and giving it back to the autorities?
At the end, what will they make with all that stuff they confisced? Do they realy want to destroy everything made of E-Iv.?
What are the risks, if you try to keep it, to buy or still to work with that material?
High ammounts or even prison?
Thank you for everya answer!

P.S. Please excuse my bad and Swiss influenced english
 
With you being in Switzerland it will not affect you at all. But for us here it will place great undue hardship. The law is just a stepping stone to confiscation if allowed to be implemented. Very few can prove where the Ivory came from that is in their cue. So legally they would not be able to sell it. If this stupid law would save one elephant it might make sense. But it will not save any elephants and just make a big show for public relations purposes. It is all politics and does nothing to save elephants. The wording in the bill makes it seem like the USA is a major dealer in poached Ivory and that this bill will save the elephants which is not true.
 
Chris,

Does the cue makers association have any lobbying power? If not what is needed to get some? I guess I mean how much $?

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opiesbro said:
Chris,

Does the cue makers association have any lobbying power? If not what is needed to get some? I guess I mean how much $?

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You don't HAVE enough money... The ACA doesn't HAVE enough money. The ICA doesn't HAVE enough money.

It cost 10 million plus for Gibson to "win".

Can you find 1000 guys who want to donate 10 grand to get started?

I know Thomas Wayne has been active in trying to stop this and I admire his, and the ACA's efforts, but I think this ship has sailed.

I'll do what I can, but my resources are limited.
 
pescadoman said:
You don't HAVE enough money... The ACA doesn't HAVE enough money. The ICA doesn't HAVE enough money.

It cost 10 million plus for Gibson to "win".

Can you find 1000 guys who want to donate 10 grand to get started?

I know Thomas Wayne has been active in trying to stop this and I admire his, and the ACA's efforts, but I think this ship has sailed.

I'll do what I can, but my resources are limited.
Click to expand...

When the time comes - and it will be soon - we'll only ask you to spend $0.46 and a few minutes of your time.

TW
 
Thomas, I would like to say thank you. I admire you and your efforts on my behalf and the behalf of all pool enthusiasts everywhere. You can count me in on any efforts to get this set straight. I am not wealthy but I will give what I can for this cause. As someone who is deployed to Afghanistan to promote freedom and fight the war on terror, I feel that my freedoms are slowly being diminished in my home country . I believe that this is an unjust law that does not fix the real problem of poaching. It makes criminals out of hard working honest law abiding citizens in the US. And has the potential to destroy peoples lively hoods and lives. Don't get me wrong I love Elephants and think they are a magnificent animal that needs to be preserved and protected for future generations. But I think they need to go after the people who are responsible for the poaching and their networks China and African Countries who harbor this kind of behavior. Not the guy who saved for years to buy a dream cue from a cue maker that has Ivory in it ,that was pre ban and legal or somewhat legal for 40 years in the US until this new law. Thank you Tim
 
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homer66_59 said:
Thomas, I would like to say thank you. I admire you and your efforts on my behalf and the behalf of all pool enthusiasts everywhere. You can count me in on any efforts to get this set straight. I am not wealthy but I will give what I can for this cause. As someone who is deployed to Afghanistan to promote freedom and fight the war on terror, I feel that my freedoms are slowly being diminished in my home country . I believe that this is an unjust law that does not fix the real problem of poaching. It makes criminals out of hard working honest citizens in the US. And has the potential to destroy peoples lively hoods and lives. Don't get me wrong I love Elephants and think they are a magnificent animal that needs to be preserved and protected for future generations. But I think they need to go after the people who are responsible for the poaching and their networks China and African Countries who harbor this kind of behavior. Not the guy who bought a cue from a cue maker that has Ivory in it that was pre ban and legal or somewhat legal for 40 years in the US until this. Thank you Tim
Click to expand...

+1.....Count me in too.
 
homer66_59 said:
Thomas, I would like to say thank you. I admire you and your efforts on my behalf and the behalf of all pool enthusiasts everywhere. You can count me in on any efforts to get this set straight. I am not wealthy but I will give what I can for this cause. As someone who is deployed to Afghanistan to promote freedom and fight the war on terror, I feel that my freedoms are slowly being diminished in my home country . I believe that this is an unjust law that does not fix the real problem of poaching. It makes criminals out of hard working honest law abiding citizens in the US. And has the potential to destroy peoples lively hoods and lives. Don't get me wrong I love Elephants and think they are a magnificent animal that needs to be preserved and protected for future generations. But I think they need to go after the people who are responsible for the poaching and their networks China and African Countries who harbor this kind of behavior. Not the guy who saved for years to buy a dream cue from a cue maker that has Ivory in it ,that was pre ban and legal or somewhat legal for 40 years in the US until this new law. Thank you Tim
Click to expand...

Sorry to all of you, if your answers confusing me a bit!
- It seems to me, that this law (about E.I.) has not already been aproved/accepted!?
- Is a decision of Obama already enough, to introduce and applicate such a new law?
- Do the US-Citizens can go to vote, concerning this law? Or is it already decided by a few politicians?
- If it is too late, I still haven't got an answer, how will they applicate such a law?
- Do they realy expect that for ex. a cue collector will give his 10'000$ Black Boar 1/1 Cue away! Because it has some E.I. inlays, just that they can destroy it?!
PLEASE could some one explain me what's the actual situation in USA, concerning that E-Ivory law?
I thank you very much
 
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al-capool said:
Sorry to all of you, if your answers confusing me a bit!
- It seems to me, that this law (about E.I.) has not already been aproved/accepted!?
- Is a decision of Obama already enough, to introduce and applicate such a new law?
- Do the US-Citizens can go to vote, concerning this law? Or is it already decided by a few politicians?
- If it is too late, I still haven't got an answer, how will they applicate such a law?
- Do they realy expect that for ex. a cue collector will give his 10'000$ Black Boar 1/1 Cue away! Because it has some E.I. inlays, just that they can destroy it?!
PLEASE could some one explain me what's the actual situation in USA, concerning that E-Ivory law?
I thank you very much
Click to expand...

I will try and help.

At this point, it is a plan that Obama/Washington has laid out. Presumably, the plan, at some point, would be enacted into a law. The public would not vote on the law, members of Congress (our national politicians who we vote in) would vote on it. Once the law is passed, the various agencies that might be involved with the enforcement of the law would then be empowered and would be given guidelines/instructions on how the enforcement would be handled.

The two most significant additions (IMO I guess) described in the plan are no commercial sales of ivory within the US if it happens between states. You could only sell within your state to another resident of the same state. The other addition in the plan is the burden of proof regarding pre ban ivory will be on the person who owns the ivory. The government will not have to prove your ivory was acquired after the original ban for someone to get in trouble, the owner of the ivory has to prove that it was acquired before the ban. That is essentially guilty until proven innocent, which is the opposite of what is supposed to be the rule in the US. Probably 99% of people who own ivory or goods that contain ivory do not have any paperwork that "proves" the ivory is pre ban ivory.

I am no legal or civics expert, so the experts on this forum are free to correct anything I have said.
 
I don't believe this will be handled as a bill/law, in the typical sense that most people might think.....i.e. voted on through Congress. This began as an executive order and will most likely be put in through the federal rulemaking process (Administrative Procedure Act of 1946). They will come up with the new rule/reg, then offer a period to solicit comments/feedback from the public, then a period to review said feedback, then it will be implemented into a final rule/reg and at that point also possibly undergo further legal review by the judicial branch, before being written into "law".

Here are the basics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rulemaking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act
 
al-capool said:
Sorry to all of you, if your answers confusing me a bit!
- It seems to me, that this law (about E.I.) has not already been aproved/accepted!?
- Is a decision of Obama already enough, to introduce and applicate such a new law?
- Do the US-Citizens can go to vote, concerning this law? Or is it already decided by a few politicians?
- If it is too late, I still haven't got an answer, how will they applicate such a law?
- Do they realy expect that for ex. a cue collector will give his 10'000$ Black Boar 1/1 Cue away! Because it has some E.I. inlays, just that they can destroy it?!
PLEASE could some one explain me what's the actual situation in USA, concerning that E-Ivory law?
I thank you very much
Click to expand...

As MPV said and I am sure TW can expound on more fully, this action is not finalized yet but seems to be headed in that direction. While the general public may get to voice some opinion it seems that the Administration is intent on passing these new restrictions. On several levels they seem to fly in the face of the rule of law in the US and seem anything but Constitutional. But that does not seem to stop them any more. As for the confiscation question you have... yes, I think they expect to be able to take the ivory, in whatever form, away from you and yes, they will destroy it, complete with news footage to show that they are protecting the elephants. The idea that you are now guilty until you prove yourself innocent is against most every thing the US stands for and another way our rights are being ignored. Also the idea that the Federal Government can restrict commerce across state lines is another concept that will be fought in court if it gets that far. This law will effect millions of people in the long run. Those that believe this law is actually going to do anything to protect elephants are dreaming and once again are willing to have their rights eroded under some pretense of good will. Instead it makes criminals out of millions of people so the Admin can posture on the world stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP5Xv7QqXiM
 
i would like to know

someone want to enlighten me as to why the other ivory thread was removed ?
 
cueaddicts said:
I don't believe this will be handled as a bill/law, in the typical sense that most people might think.....i.e. voted on through Congress. This began as an executive order and will most likely be put in through the federal rulemaking process (Administrative Procedure Act of 1946). They will come up with the new rule/reg, then offer a period to solicit comments/feedback from the public, then a period to review said feedback, then it will be implemented into a final rule/reg and at that point also possibly undergo further legal review by the judicial branch, before being written into "law".

Here are the basics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rulemaking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act
Click to expand...

"I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes." [Edward Everett to Abraham Lincoln following Lincoln's Gettysburg Address]

TW
 
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