no smoking as of 4-15... ways to get around?

[Chris]

As with any scientific studies, you can always find one to refute it. Doing a quick search, I found a pretty lucid one:

Conclusions about long-term drug effects need long-term research studies, and that's why the jury is still out on some of the cannabis consequences that may show up down the road. Despite the fact that humans have been growing the marijuana plant for thousands of years, and using it recreationally in the U.S. since the early twentieth century, its effects have not been as thoroughly studied as those of tobacco and cigarette smoking.

From the studies which have been conducted, we know that incidents of cancer from cigarette smoking are far more numerous than cancers from smoking pot, at least in part because more people smoke cigarettes. Also, even frequent marijuana users consume less than heavy cigarette smokers. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that marijuana smokers do tend to inhale more deeply and keep the smoke in their lungs for a longer period than tobacco smokers. It is possible that these behaviors increase the lung's exposure to the chemical by-products of smoking. Burning marijuana for smoking releases many substances other than THC, the ingredient which produces the drug's psychoactive effects. THC does not appear to be carcinogenic, but some of the other chemicals released by both marijuana and tobacco smoke are problematic. These include tar, carbon monoxide, and cyanide. One known carcinogen, benzopyrene, though found in both types of smoke, seems to be greater in pot smoke.

When it comes to health problems related to breathing and their lungs, heavy smokers of either substance have more difficulty than nonsmokers. These include chronic cough, phlegm, wheezing, and bronchitis. Recent studies have indicated that people who smoke both marijuana and tobacco may be more likely to develop lung cancer, and at an earlier age, than smokers of tobacco alone.
There are some other things to think about. For one, pot is usually not smoked with a filter. Using one would cut down on the amount of "bad" chemicals entering the body. Also, consuming marijuana through a water pipe, or bong, would eliminate some of the by-products of smoking. Some researchers also suggest that inhaling marijuana deep into the lungs and holding it there is something smokers should stop doing. Apparently, this ritualized practice does not significantly increase the drug's effect anyway.

For now, it does appear that pot smokers may run an increased risk of cancer, as well as bronchial irritation and possibly other health problems. Some recent research found associations between pregnant marijuana smokers and the development of rare leukemias in their young children. However, there has not been enough investigation of this possibility for the link to be clear.

Do you have the link to this study?

Tashkin refuted his own previous studies. Incidentally, he was behind many, if not most studies that concluded cannabis caused cancer. Effectively, he admitted he has been wrong for many years.

I used his study as an example for this reason. There have actually been larger studies that came to the same conclusion, but they were not done by researchers that believed cannabis causes cancer. Tashkin did, at least until he disproved that hypothesis.

 

[UWPoolGod1]

Always been and always will be non-smoker

And proud of it. A few personal views and stories.

How could I not be a smoker? Growing up in a small town next to Mt. St. Helens in WA to parents who smoked 1-2 packs/day each. "I learned it form you daddy" as the old commercial on drug use echoed in the background. That was one of my early memories watching Ivan Lendl and Boris Becker battle back and forth over the net on those hot summer Sunday mornings with my father. After several hours of watching tennis through the haze of cigarette smoke I would retreat down to the barn to shoot some hoops. I would make that route several times a day to escape the cloud. Less to say that I became a good shot and eventually made varsity in high school.

On hot summer days my parents would have the door open and screen door shut to cool off the house of the days long cooked air. I would come home from afternoon/evening baseball practice and step up onto the porch only to see a wave of smoke exiting the house from the front door. Unreal, just like the exit of marijuana smoke from the window crack of a rastafarians hoopdie (sp sp?). Sit there and view the haze circle while watching Wonder Years...oooohhh Winnie

How could I not smoke? Such access to cartons of Marlboro red's and lights. All the gradeschool friends taking up the fad. "Try this, its cool". After being a 13 year vet 2nd hand smoker I really didn't feel I needed to try it first hand. You guys go ahead, I'll be over here playing F-Zero on Super Nintendo.

Then my father got cancer in his neck. How could I not smoke? Having to get his teeth pulled so they didn't turn gangrenous due to the radiation. Having them remove part of his neck and shoulder muscle during the surgery. He quit cold turkey which is amazing because he used to smoke 1 1/2 to 2 packs a day. And he stayed off them for 10 years, until he decided to try one Swisher Sweet ciger. That was 3 years ago and he is back to smoking nonstop. "Oh I'll stop...just after I finish this brick of cigars" riiiiggghhhtt.

So then I get to college at the University of Washington and into pool. Make some great friends, smokers and non. The poolhall at UW is in the basement of the HUB (Husky Union Building) which is non-smoking. "Come up and stand with me while I smoke" Okay, at least I am getting some exercise climbing the stairs and am then able to check out the summer clad sorority girls studying on the lawn. That almost made me want to smoke, so I would head out there more often instead of practicing my backcuts in the poolhall dungeon.
"What time is it?"
"Its 2:30"
"Lets go to Dr. Cues"
"I got a class at 3:30"
"Oh you weren't going to go anyways"
"Yeah you're right, lets go"
And off to the poolhall we went. 8 hours and a pack of cigs later for my friend we left the hall. I would feel bad because he was so stressed sitting there watching me runout that he would light up one after another. The next day he would tell me how physically bad he felt after smoking that much. I would go back to the dorm reaking of smoke and my roommate would echo that fact "Go take a shower!". Oh there is nothing more refreshing than having smoke water run out of your hair and down your face. MMMM.

But in all of this I never really cared that the smoke was present in the poolahlls or bars. It was where the tables and action was so I had to deal with it to be able to play there. I was making some good money playing in the bar tourneys. Guess thats the price I put on it to deal with the smoke. When I moved to Vancouver and began playing in the tourneys at this one bar I was the only one who was a non-smoker. The place was about as bad as my parents as a kid. But I dealt with it, I was still making good money.

Then the smoking ban took effet and everyone was pissed. I didn't care, I was going to be there smoking or not. Of course I was glad to shoot in smokeless air and that I would not have irritated red eyes anymore at the end of the night. Also without the smoke and if I didn't sweat too much that night I may be able to wear that shirt in 5 or 6 days without washing it.

But I really didn't know how good I had it until I went to APA Tri-Cups 3 or 4 months ago which was in Oregon. Half of the teams were from Vancouver and with the renewed freedom of smoking while playing, everyone was probably smoking twice as much as they normally do. We had to play all days since my team won the tourney, and after being in there all day I had one of the worse headaches I had ever had. I had been weened off of the 2nd hander for 3 months and this day was if I had not touched 2nd hand in years. My body couldn't handle it.

I read pretty much all of the pages of this thread leading up to this post. There are arguements for either side. Personally I have never smoked, cigarettes or marijuana (or done any other drug for that matter), but do I prefer a smokeless environment? Sure do. Am I going to cry about being at a place where it is allowed? No.

How could I not smoke? Guess I didn't get that memo that its a great thing... Just a rant....nothing more...nothing less. Take what you will.

 

[pooltchr]

Purdman,
The businessman should have the right to determine how he is going to run his business. The customer should have the right to determine whether or not he wants to do business with him under the circumstances he has created. And each should take responsibility for his own choices. It's pretty simple until the government gets involved.
Steve

 

[macguy]

Purdman,
The businessman should have the right to determine how he is going to run his business. The customer should have the right to determine whether or not he wants to do business with him under the circumstances he has created. And each should take responsibility for his own choices. It's pretty simple until the government gets involved.
Steve

You make the assumption the customers knows or the business owner discloses. Suppose the place isn't using fire retarding materials such as took place in that night club a few years ago when over a hundred innocent people were killed in a fire? Do you remember the Coconut Grove? Business owners cheat and lie at every turn all in the name of profits. There aren't enough regulations and the penalties aren't strong enough now when it comes to some violations. They pay a small fine and go on there way only to do it again. Your argument is nuts.

 

[Purdman]

Yeah, But??????

It is worth noting that most doctors agree that cannabis consumption via a vaporizor, which does not burn the vegetable matter, is a healthier option than smoking.

Something just don't sound right when you hear, "DON'T BOGART THAT VAPORIZER".
Purdman

 

[fred_in_hoboken]

Whether I smoked or not, I would still be against a law which discriminates.....yes, I said it.....discriminates against a group of people.... Therefore, it could be argued that these laws, passed at the state level, are a direct violation of the US Civil Rights Act.......it's still a form of segregation.....no matter how pretty a bow you tie it up in.

Smokers are not a protected class (defined by the Civil rights act as race, color, religion, or national origin), so anti-smoking laws are not a violation of the US Civil Rights Act. But even if smokers were a protected class, they are not being banned from public places... they simply are not allowed to smoke there.

Smoking is a voluntary behavior. You choose to be a smoker. Comparing that to segregation really trivializes actual discrimination.

 

[Scottlucasi19]

Talk about gross... the sickly juices that chewy stuff produces in the mouth if swallowed will turn your stomach. Getting rid of it by spitting into a cup and leaving the cup on display is downright funky. The makers of chew add glass ground extremely finely to abrade the inner lip to assist in giving the user a nicotine hit. Can lead to cancer and other very unpleasant illnesses. Nothing quite beats watching someone lose control of the discolored saliva and have it drool down their chin.

Yuck...

Flex

HAHA now you understand to some degree how nasty second hand smoke is to the non-smoker

 

[Flex]

HAHA now you understand to some degree how nasty second hand smoke is to the non-smoker

I'm not a smoker, and second hand smoke doesn't bother me terribly. I don't mind sleeping in hotel rooms that are for smokers. I don't mind going into a lounge where smoke is everywhere. I just don't get exactly downwind of a stream of it either. If that happens, usually the smoker will realize it and either move the ashtray or ask me if it's bothering me. If it is, I'll thank them for being considerate. Just normal, gentlemanly behavior, IMHO.

Flex

 

[ScottW]

Different people have different tolerances for second-hand smoke, simple as that.

I myself can deal with it to a large degree - though I prefer not to have to deal with it at all.

 

[macguy]

I'm not a smoker, and second hand smoke doesn't bother me terribly. I don't mind sleeping in hotel rooms that are for smokers. I don't mind going into a lounge where smoke is everywhere. I just don't get exactly downwind of a stream of it either. If that happens, usually the smoker will realize it and either move the ashtray or ask me if it's bothering me. If it is, I'll thank them for being considerate. Just normal, gentlemanly behavior, IMHO.

Flex

I think even a non smoker builds up a tolerance for it. It never really bothered me that much before but since I almost never go to places where there is smoke anymore, it really bothers me now. I had to spend a few hours in a smoky pool room a few months ago and it took three days to shake off the effects. This leads me to believe that as more places become non smoking there will be a snowball effect. people will get used to the no smoke atmosphere and will be noticeably effected when they are near a smoker and not be able to stand it even if like me, it never bothered them before. At a point no one except the small 15% of those who smoke will want to be anywhere near it and that will be that.

 

[pooltchr]

You make the assumption the customers knows or the business owner discloses. Suppose the place isn't using fire retarding materials such as took place in that night club a few years ago when over a hundred innocent people were killed in a fire? Do you remember the Coconut Grove? Business owners cheat and lie at every turn all in the name of profits. There aren't enough regulations and the penalties aren't strong enough now when it comes to some violations. They pay a small fine and go on there way only to do it again. Your argument is nuts.

As a customer, if you can't tell if it's a smoking or non-smoking establishment, then it really doesn't matter.
And you obviously aren't a business owner, or you would know that business in this country is regulated to death. Business owners spend about 20-30 percent of their time complying with various government regulations in one form or another.
Steve

 

[Flex]

I think even a non smoker builds up a tolerance for it. It never really bothered me that much before but since I almost never go to places where there is smoke anymore, it really bothers me now. I had to spend a few hours in a smoky pool room a few months ago and it took three days to shake off the effects. This leads me to believe that as more places become non smoking there will be a snowball effect. people will get used to the no smoke atmosphere and will be noticeably effected when they are near a smoker and not be able to stand it even if like me, it never bothered them before. At a point no one except the small 15% of those who smoke will want to anywhere near it and that will be that.

Very interesting concepts, and I have friends who have a physical reaction to it similarly to the way you do. As things become more sterilized around us, I think we become weaker... Having to fight off germs and so on helps keep us strong. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if creating a hospital like atmosphere everywhere is not ultimately in our best interests.

Flex

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Unequivocally... YES!!

I enjoy premium, handmade cigars.

I'm curious, before you light up in a public place, do you find out if the other people around also enjoy premium handmade cigars? While cigarette smoke is toxic and unpleasant, cigar smoke is quite a great deal more potent. I used to notice people smoking cigars in bars, and it always amazed me that they just didn't give a crap about the people around them. Would it bother you if I opened up a carton of rotten eggs next to you? I'm pretty sure eggs are still legal in most states.

Just curious. Consideration is a remarkable thing, in that it can mean such different things to different people.

KMRUNOUT

 

[macguy]

As a customer, if you can't tell if it's a smoking or non-smoking establishment, then it really doesn't matter.
And you obviously aren't a business owner, or you would know that business in this country is regulated to death. Business owners spend about 20-30 percent of their time complying with various government regulations in one form or another.
Steve

I thought you weren't talking about smoking any more but business owners rights? The public needs to be protected from unscrupulous business owners. Also I have been in business since I was 16 and had a lawn service business. I once had a job as a union crane operator 35 years ago, that's the last time I worked for anyone else. Over the years I have owned two pool rooms, a bar, a piece of a construction company, done some land development, I own numerous rental properties. I have spent plenty of time fighting with cities over things I wanted to do.

My father had a building he wanted to develop and the people opposed to it managed to get the project stopped by getting it designated an historical landmark costing us like three millions dollars, you don't need to tell me about how the system works. That being said, though you can't just leave it up to businesses to regulate themselves that would be ridiculous, there wouldn't be a restaurant safe to eat in and they would still be building Pintos. Try to be at least a little objective.

It's interesting you-all like to say the government uses scare tactics, yet that seems to be the entire bases or your argument, paranoid scare tactics and you keep talking about all the rights you are losing, what are some of the rights you have lost recently, I personally can't think of any I've lost.

 

[rackmsuckr]

I was at a tournament where there was no place to sit except at the bar with the stools all on steel pedestals, with our cases and purses, etc. crammed in between. As usual, we were one of the first people there so we got the pick of the bar.

Somewhere after the tourney started, along comes this guy who sits beside me and lights up a noxious cigar. Not even as good as a Swisher Sweet! He is puffing like mad and I asked him if he could smoke somewhere else. He said why should he and I replied because I was there first and his smoke was infringing on my right to not breathe it. He then took a deep drag and exhaled 3" from my face directly into my face! I was livid, but being non-confrontational and short on one end, I moved.

 

[ScottW]

Somewhere after the tourney started, along comes this guy who sits beside me and lights up a noxious cigar. Not even as good as a Swisher Sweet! He is puffing like mad and I asked him if he could smoke somewhere else. He said why should he and I replied because I was there first and his smoke was infringing on my right to not breathe it. He then took a deep drag and exhaled 3" from my face directly into my face! I was livid, but being non-confrontational and short on one end, I moved.

Sounds kinda like an experience I had a couple of years ago. I was playing with one APA team on Thursdays, and decided I wanted to play league on another night as well. I got on a Tuesday night team with a guy I met through my Thursday night team captain.

So I show up the first night at this team's home location - a little bar not too far from where I was living. I open the door and there is *literally* a *wall* of smoke there, stopping where the door held it in. I mean floor to ceiling smoke. I thought "crap" but went on in.

I ended up playing with this team two whole weeks before I told the team captain that I simply couldn't take it anymore, the smoke was too much for me, and that I was going to drop from the team. I was even sitting on the *floor* to keep my head as far away from the lingering bar-wide cloud of smoke hanging from the ceiling. Someone on the team asked why I was sitting there instead of on a chair, and I told him why - at that point the team captain, who was sitting next to me, takes this big long drag off his cigarette, bends over, and blows the smoke right onto my head, getting laughs from the rest of the team (who all smoked).

Needless to say, I was not the least bit sad about leaving that team.

I wonder if a case could be made to consider someone blowing smoke in someone else's face "assault"...

 

[ridewiththewind]

Smoking is a voluntary behavior. You choose to be a smoker.

Okay, let's something crystal clear here....smoking is an ADDICTION. There is no more a choice here for the smoker than, since the addiction level has been compared to, that of a heroin addict. Instead of calling us smokers, perhaps it would be more scientifically correct to call us nicotine addicts, because that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Tell you what....you go do some heroin or meth, or whatever, for a week, and then come back to me and tell me that your continued use is a choice. Many, many a smoker has attempted to quit, at least a half a dozen times in their lives, some make it, some make it eventually.....some never make it. I'll keep trying.

Want to do something positive with your righteous indignation? Then go back to your legislature and finish what has been started.....take the funds generated by the fines levied and have them used exclusively for smoking abatement programs in your communities. There are many people out there that find it is easier to afford the evil than the good.....provide them with the necessary medical and psychological resources needed to get them off the nicotine. Now THAT would be the most mutually beneficial solution to this issue!

Lisa

 

[ridewiththewind]

at that point the team captain, who was sitting next to me, takes this big long drag off his cigarette, bends over, and blows the smoke right onto my head, getting laughs from the rest of the team (who all smoked).

Smoker or no....that's just straight-up rude, and uncalled for, behavior! My entire team smokes, as do most in both leagues I play in.....if ever, ever one of my players acted in such a manner, they would no longer be on my team....period!!

I am actually quite considerate. I try and sit as far away from anyone who does not smoke. I do not leave a cigarette just smoldering. And I try very hard to be as close to the Smoke-Eater as I possibly can. And, I usually don't smoke a whole cigarette at once. I really make an effort to minimalize my impact. But as a captain, I do not like to have to take it outside, because I need to be in there watching the game(s). Yet another reason I am trying to quit.

Lisa

 

[macguy]

Okay, let's something crystal clear here....smoking is an ADDICTION. There is no more a choice here for the smoker than, since the addiction level has been compared to, that of a heroin addict. Instead of calling us smokers, perhaps it would be more scientifically correct to call us nicotine addicts, because that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Tell you what....you go do some heroin or meth, or whatever, for a week, and then come back to me and tell me that your continued use is a choice. Many, many a smoker has attempted to quit, at least a half a dozen times in their lives, some make it, some make it eventually.....some never make it. I'll keep trying.

Want to do something positive with your righteous indignation? Then go back to your legislature and finish what has been started.....take the funds generated by the fines levied and have them used exclusively for smoking abatement programs in your communities. There are many people out there that find it is easier to afford the evil than the good.....provide them with the necessary medical and psychological resources needed to get them off the nicotine. Now THAT would be the most mutually beneficial solution to this issue!

Lisa

I think smokers have more sympathy then you can imagine. There are no non smokers who would not go way out of their way to try to help a smoker quit if they would accept it. You can't help someone till they make the decision themselves. It has to be a totally selfish decision, they can't be doing it because their wife or husband bugs them or because of social pressures. They have to do it because it becomes the most important thing in their lives to do. At that point they can do it.

My wife smoked when I first met her and she knew I didn't like it but accept for suggesting it I never said much about it. Then one day she was reading in the paper about a stop smoking program put on by the American Lung Association and she said she wanted to go. I could't believe it. I went with her and sat through every meeting and she quit and that's over 20 years ago and even though I owned a pool room at the time and she was around smokers she never smoked again. She had made the decision and from there it wasn't completely easy but she knew she would quit. The A.L.A. program is a cold turkey program and has a high success rate.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

For the record...here in WA, the 25' rule applies to no smoking while STANDING within 25' of any doorway, functioning window, or other air intake. You may, however, smoke while walking down the sidewalk, within 25' of any business.

The problem most smokers is....we pay taxes like everyone else...actually MORE...because the tax on cigarettes is absolutely ridiculous!!! Yet, smokers are treated as if they are second class citizens. That's pretty much the bottom line.

Now, if there were laws banning alcohol from anywhere other than your own home...........the country would be in an outrage, ala Prohibition. Yet, the consumption of alcohol is directly related to more deaths than that of second hand smoke. To argue otherwise would be just plain folly, so don't even bother....there just isn't enough data available yet to prove otherwise, as they have not been studying nearly as long as the effect of drunk driving has been studied, and proven......drunk drivers kill....yet they are allowed back on the roads, time and time again. Now that's where the legislation should be spending their money...let's improve existing laws, before we go off passing new ones.

No one group of peoples, in this country, should ever be singled out and treated like second-class citizens.....but that is exactly waht has happened in this case. It's a violation of our Constitutional rights.....go read it.

Lisa

Lisa,
Your reasoning is unfortunately clouded by a common mistake people make who don't know that much about research in general. I'm not trying to pick on you, but saying that there is not enough data to prove otherwise (that drunk drivers kill more people than second hand smoke) means that there is not enough data to prove the opposite? You see what I mean? Without enough data, you can't "prove" anything. Your magic phrase "directly related to" is quite important. There is not much in the way of long term debilitating death related to most car accidents. Second hand smoke effects are difficult to prove.

Beware of relying on too much "proof". Remember, I doubt you or anyone else can prove the existence of love, fun, beauty, etc. Only the presence of certain chemical states in the body.

It sounds kind of silly to claim that 2nd hand smoke doesn't kill people, or at least affect their health. The number of drunk driving deaths is totally irrelavent. I'm not too sure why you would use the phrase "second class citizens". Likewise, I'm not sure why you would object to singling out one class of people, considering you were the one that mentioned the group called "drunk drivers". Do you think we should stop "singling out" murderers as a group, or rapists?

On the other hand, I agree that it is a violation of constitutional rights. Businesses should be able to run themselves as they see fit. And employees should be allowed to sign a waver releasing their insurance companies from any obligation to pay for healthcare related to smoke, so that the employers can have them work in an unhealthy environment.

Thankfully, there are enough people who present arguments as solid as yours out there to ensure that the no-smoking viewpoint will ultimately prevail.

KMRUNOUT