No throwing a ball in...

IMO, if you have the ability to understand the concept and apply the technique your game would benifit from Freddy Bentivegna's book...."Banking With the Beard".

He covers all this and more.

seriously, buy the book and revisit the instructions as often as needed......and improve with proven techniques.


Dave
 
I thought this only applies with anything other than a low defletion shaft like the Preditor 314 or OB-1 shafts?:D

Just kidding; I am not touching this one!
 
I think your Instructor is on the right track. Don't depend upon it!

Spin induced throw is not at all predictable or manageable. Excpecially on a lone object ball in the middle of the table. If and when it might happen is the result of many variables. Just my humble opinon....SPF-randyg

FLEX. By the way, Colin said that he had to "doctor" those shots!
 
Mr. Wilson said:
IMO, if you have the ability to understand the concept and apply the technique your game would benifit from Freddy Bentivegna's book...."Banking With the Beard".

He covers all this and more.

seriously, buy the book and revisit the instructions as often as needed......and improve with proven techniques.


Dave
Click to expand...

*tap tap tap*

Man you are dead on...that's two for two with me...that is a great book that will explain alot and it makes sense. EXCELLENT diagrams and wording. Really is an asset to all players games.
 
MacGyver said:
Get your money back from the lesson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do this: setup two balls frozen table length to a corner pocket.

Either by cutting the first ball or hitting it deadon with english(and pocket speed) you can get the frozen combo to miss...

Have him explain that or give your money back, lol...
Click to expand...

I think the results you would see from the set-up you describe would be more the result of CIT as opposed to SIT. I use this demonstration a lot to show the effects of CIT.
Steve
 
pete lafond said:
CB curve as a result of english has a greater impact to causing a missed shot than throw. However, I have heard of an aiming method that does state to always aim at the same spot no matter the english used and then align the cue differently depending on whether using outside or inside english is being used. Maybe this is what he was stating.

Also you might notice that when a strong player uses inside or outside english, they stroke a little firmer. This minimized the throw so you do not need to consider effects as much.

On most tables you should not miss a shot aimed at center pocket because throw. After all you have 1 1/4 inches minimum on both sides to miss and actually considering slop, you have much more area to miss by and still make it. Most shots played do not roll that slow to alter this much unless you are talking about two balls kissing, then the throw is greater because of the added friction.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the response pete. I think you are right about the system. Was this system you are speaking of an aim and pivot system when applying english. Again it is unfortunate I will not get to speak with the teacher in another couple months.

Too whoever asked as to whether he sounded like he was competent other than that statement. VERY much so. He has helped me out more in 3 sessions with only telling me specifically to do 2 separate things (than I had learned in 15 from the only other guy that "taught" me) and I have seen IMMEDIATE improvements every time he talks to me. He has taught all of the top players that have come out of fresno in the past 20 years (and didn't get that information from him, that is from his other students). I have also seen this guy transform a couple of bangers within 10 mins into at least good shotmakers with good fundamentals.
 
randyg said:
FLEX. By the way, Colin said that he had to "doctor" those shots!
Click to expand...

That's quite interesting, Randy. Hmmm.... I just reread the whole post and didn't find where he said he that. Perhaps I missed it, or maybe it's in another thread? And if he did "doctor" it, what did he do that changed the results, and how were they changed?

Thanks for your comments.

Flex
 
pooltchr said:
I think the results you would see from the set-up you describe would be more the result of CIT as opposed to SIT. I use this demonstration a lot to show the effects of CIT.
Steve
Click to expand...


Sorry for my ignorance but what are SIT and CIT?
 
erikido said:
ummm...no he didn't say that. in addition, when he played competitively which was not very long (he plays golf now) and was a 125 speed in usppa. for those of you that do not know that is about semi pro level.
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Not targeting this instructor in particular, but playing ability does not equate to teaching ability.
 
The first fellow to ever give me lessons said the same thing, that throw doesn't exist. Give me a break. He even said he wrote an article about it. Several months later he suggested I try to throw a ball in. Go figure.

Flex
 
erikido said:
Sorry for my ignorance but what are SIT and CIT?
Click to expand...

The stand for "collision-induced throw" and "Spin-induced throw." I think they are unfortunate terms because they give the impression there are two separate effects that somehow compete with one another. In fact there is but one effect, a frictional force on the object ball when the surface of the cueball slides across the object ball. The main issue is what is the direction of the sliding.

mike page
fargo
 
erikido said:
You know the saying. Spin it to win it etc. I took a lesson a couple days ago and the guy said that you can not spin a ball in. If you hit the contact point then the ob goes in no matter what spin you put on it. Thoughts?
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Is it possible he wasn't talking about throw (which, as others have said is pretty much indisputable) but rather about "get-in english."

We've all seen the cueball approaching the corner pocket and wondered with bait on our breath whether it's going in. We're relieved to see it looks like it's going to bobble and stay up. Then we get a sinking feeling as we note the cueball has gobs of running english. SCRATCH.

Some people think that spin transferred to the object ball from the cueball can similarly help to sink the object ball. This is get-in english.

Reasonable people, though, believe that the amount of spin that can be transferred to an object ball is so small that if pretty much never makes sense to do it purposefully --unless you're trying to alter the angle of a bank that is.

mike page
fargo
 
Mike, I think they are different.

If you place your object ball in the center of the table and hit one tip right center of your cueball, the effect will be very different if you try and duplicate the shot by cutting the ball.

Granted, the spin transfered to the object ball is the same in terms that the ball is spinning after contact....but how it got that spin and how much are very different. ( IMO )

( edit ) that is to say after the object ball contacts a rail.....




mikepage said:
The stand for "collision-induced throw" and "Spin-induced throw." I think they are unfortunate terms because they give the impression there are two separate effects that somehow compete with one another. In fact there is but one effect, a frictional force on the object ball when the surface of the cueball slides across the object ball. The main issue is what is the direction of the sliding.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Mr. Wilson said:
Mike, I think they are different.

If you place your object ball in the center of the table and hit one tip right center of your cueball, the effect will be very different if you try and duplicate the shot by cutting the ball.

[...]
Click to expand...

I disagree.

Let's say you hit a ball full (straight on stop shot ) at 1 meter/second, and you put enough right english on the cueball so that the surface of the cueball is also moving sideways at 1 meter per second. (about 6 or 7 rpm).

The object ball will do the exact same thing (speed, throw, spin...) as if you cut the ball with stun and no spin hitting at 1.414 meters/second from a 45 degree angle.

In both cases the cueball is moving at 1 meter/second along the line of centers and the two surfaces are moving at 1 meter per second relative to one another.

One is so-called cit, and the other is so-called sit. But the object ball doesn't know the difference--doesn't distinguish between these.

mike page
fargo
 
Varney Cues said:
Indeed your teacher is incorrect. With a level cue I can twist a ball in that otherwise would not go. Simply put...there are way too many people giving lessons that shouldn't...I'm one of them. I hurt your wrist as well as your wallet. I make you put a fat rubberband around your wrist...every time you do something stupid...pull it back and let 'er POP!!! Funny how when your wrist is near bleedin' you'll actually remember to stay down on the ball!!! LOL!!!
Click to expand...

I'll take some Varney lessons. How does $100 a rack sound? I'll pay you for each rack you win and you pay me for each one I win.

:-)

John
 
Flex said:
If you would like to SEE the proof that throw exists and varies depending on the english used and the strength of the shot, be sure to check out Colin Colenso's thread, and video too, on this.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30429

Your teacher is mistaken on this point.

Flex
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that thread Flex.

btw: Here is the direct link to the video that shows the extreme (over 8 degrees of) variation for hitting the same contact point with different types of spin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-xtzn4vbiQ

To the original poster, I recommend you don't receive any more coaching from that guy. He may have things to teach you, but he may also drill a lot of incorrect concepts into your head which you'll have to unlearn later.

You'll learn more on these boards and by videoing and watching yourself..and watching good players.

Colin
ps. On the CIT issue, I have refered to it as Contact Induced Throw, but really, SIT and CIT are interrelated. I wonder if it may be better to incorporate them into simply Collision Induced Throw and then branch out into the variable such as side, speed and contact angle.
 
erikido said:
You know the saying. Spin it to win it etc.
Click to expand...
I've never heard this saying.

I took a lesson a couple days ago and the guy said that you can not spin a ball in. If you hit the contact point then the ob goes in no matter what spin you put on it. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

My thoughts are that many players get too hung up on spin-induced throw and miss out on the other factors that are, IMO, tremendously more devastating. That is, if people are going to get hung up on the details, they might as well understand the other factors (squirt and swerve) whose details create more reason to miss than throw.

It's easier for me to tell people "forgot about spin throw."

Fred
 
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