NOS vintage PALMER/?? full splice conversion cue

[scruggsinhand]

hello azers.....

one from the dark recesses of my closet here....forgot i even had it....lol

this is a NOS(new old stock) PALMER BLANK (99% sure of it) full splice conversion cue....check out those veneers!!....

very nicely grained/streaked ebony(pics dont show this very well, i will work on that) with 4 veneers into straight grain maple
rings are ivory/cocobolo in black phenolic
5/16-14 pin
OLD GE ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA joint, butt cap and ferrules!!!!
2 13+mm shafts
butt weighs 16 oz, shafts are 4.0 and 4.1, so cue is 20.0 or 20.1...does have weight bolt of unknown weight.

scruggsinhand COPYRIGHTED @ 2005 PICS!!!!

a lot of history here, if you look close enough...new/mint, test hits only

cue converted and signed by prather and mike stacey 1 of 1 '1999'

i will let the pics tell the rest!!!

any ideas on what it's worth? make me an offer?

 

[DawgAndy]

Thats a beauty...I love the full splice with veneers and no wrap. Sorry no help on price though....

Have a safe New Year everyone.

 

[Shorty]

This is pure speculation on my part...ie open mouth, insert foot...but I would guesstimate that cue to be worth 500-600 minimum.

Nice cue though...really unique and I bet its a player with that joint and ferrules.

Shorty

 

[jhendri2]

Where's Tate when you need him. Chris paging Chris, price check in wanted/for sale isle

Jim

 

[scruggsinhand]

thanks for everyones input....ya, where is chris when ya need him...fyi, i had the cue made for 900...

 

[TATE]

thanks for everyones input....ya, where is chris when ya need him...fyi, i had the cue made for 900...

I was hesitant to comment (not to have it taken the wrong way) but Palmer never built their own full splice cues. They built a lot of their own forearms however.

Your cue was probably built from a Palmer Model 11 3rd catalog, or one of the Margo "Bullet" cues or similar. Starting in about 1975 they used a very high quality full splice ADAM blank built to their specs in Japan. Your cue is clearly the Adam Japan splice. They are better built than Titlists and look terrific.

I have often suggested that someone start buying those early full splice Adam cues and do these sort of conversions. Many use Brazilian rosewood and a lot of good looking colors. I am now trying to clear up some of the mis-information about these. They were built to Palmer specs by Richard Helmstetter and Dave Forman and the ones I have are just super. They are nearly indistinguishable from an early Spain full splice cue. The only one who can tell is Joel and it's because he's right on with the colors and a few little things Burton did with the veneers. Burton also shared his knowledge quite freely and Richard Helmstetter was a freind of his, so he probably helped them get set-up.

There were some pretty junky import forearms used in the 1980's by Palmer from KPC Taiwan - do not confuse the high quality Adam Japan work with the pretty bad KPC built cues that came later on and were an embarassment to the Palmer name.


Chris

 

[scruggsinhand]

Chris

thanks for your input and info, no worries about what is said...i just want accurate info....what convinces you that this is an adams blank??

this is what i remember from when i got it.

this was made from a unfinished blank and not a cue, 1 of 6 that i could have gotten, 3 had veneer colors like mine the other 3 were maple/black/maple/black (again the eyebrows raise!) and were not as even unfortunately. when i had found this there was some talk of them being Burton Spain blanks or CP's...but we could never prove or disprove the idea. i think there was some blocking of information going on as i had shown this to a few people and it raised some eyebrows, but no one was talking. knowledge is power....

 

[TATE]

Chris

thanks for your input and info, no worries about what is said...i just want accurate info....what convinces you that this is an adams blank??

this is what i remember from when i got it.

this was made from a unfinished blank and not a cue, 1 of 6 that i could have gotten, 3 had veneer colors like mine the other 3 were maple/black/maple/black (again the eyebrows raise!) and were not as even unfortunately. when i had found this there was some talk of them being Burton Spain blanks or CP's...but we could never prove or disprove the idea. i think there was some blocking of information going on as i had shown this to a few people and it raised some eyebrows, but no one was talking. knowledge is power....

That makes it a little clearer. I am beginning to see a pattern here because this is not the first time this issue has surfaced.

Check out this thread:

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=22051&highlight=adam+forearm

In 1981 Pete Margo and Peter Balner decided to get back into the custom cue making again on a larger scale. They were going to step it up a notch. Palmer's custom shop was not getting much action at the time. The PB and PM lines were already in place and were built entirely by Adam Japan and branded "Palmer" and Palmer had transitioned to a distributor and marketer of billiards supplies.

They introduced the Pete Margo Bullet series. They wanted to get full splice blanks for the cues and there were few sources. Their shop was not set up to chop wood like this. They again contracted Adam Japan to build quality full splice blanks, and they finished, inlayed and assembled the cues at their shop.

A few years later, 1984, Balner and Margo left and founded a Video chain. There were unused blanks left from that and I bet what you saw your could find here:

http://www.palmercollector.com/PeteMargoBulletSeries.html

The #7 and #8 were Macassar ebony - it doesn't show in the pic but the #7 Colt .45 has ebony, orange, blue and natural veneers abd the #8 has the ebony/natural/ebony/natural veneers.

Thay had also used these color combos in some of the 3rd catalog cues.
It's a great looking cue. Let's face it, Adam probably built 1000 blanks to every one Spain built, so naturally we're going to run across these.

I have made, and continue to make, many mistakes identifying the forearms and their source because Palmer used a lot of suppliers and they were instructed to build them to palmer's specs, so they were very similar in appearance. I have now boiled it down pretty well and I am going to try to distribute as much information as possible to various dealers so there will be fewer mistakes made in the future.

Chris

 

[bobroberts]

Hi chris ,off topic but i think you should write a book with all the knowledge you have about Palmers.I believe there would be a big market for it.
JMHO
Bob

 

[TATE]

Hi chris ,off topic but i think you should write a book with all the knowledge you have about Palmers.I believe there would be a big market for it.
JMHO
Bob

Bob,

Well, thank you. I'm just going to put it on my site. Most of the information I have was obtained from Peter Balner, and working with me in a long question and answer process, he cleared many of the mysteries for me.

It is obvious to me that I have just scratched the surface. I was able to piece a lot together on my own but I kept running into roadblocks. He helped me to put together the pieces of the puzzle. I have tried contacting Richard Helmstetter with no luck. In my next phase I am going to see if I can get ahold of Dave Forman through the Adam company. Dave used to sell imported cues in the 1960's and talked Richrad Helmstetter into abandoning the National Cue venture and coming to Japan.

In any case, I can tell you that I believe these full-splice Adam blanked cues were structurally as good as any made at the time and were better than the earlier Brunswicks in terms of durability because of the superior glues available by then. Now, I stress "at the time". Joel Hercek has brought the full-splice the full loop. He builds one that is better balanced, less prone to warpage, is stonger and more versatile, and visually superior to any full splice cue ever made. Joel has also generously helped set up John Davis to make them again as well.

Chris

 

[scruggsinhand]

thanks for everyones comments and input and especially Chris....thanks for sharing the knowledge