Not an Abe Rich

[Homesplice]

I posted some pics of a cue i was told was an Abe Rich. I also posted it on FaceBook in "Cue Collectors Corner". Some of the resident experts told me in no uncertain term that I was mistaken. A couple people suggested Doc Fry. The butt cap looked wrong to me for a Doc Fry. Then someone posted a pic of early Doc Fry cues with same butt cap and glitter rings like on my cue. This article caught my eye as it looks like my cue has a Gus Szamboti forearm. I found identical(first pic) forearm on Proficient Billiards website titled Gus Szamboti four point forearm. Read Doc didnt start putting pennies under bumper till 1972 and this would be prior. If it quacks like a doc. What do you guys think?

Doc Frye: Inducted 2019
Doc started building cues in the early 1960’s and continued until his passing in 1978. He made pool cues in the Philadelphia area (Feasterville) and was a Pharmacist as his main occupation and picked up the nickname Doc from that. Most of his cues were fairly simple with colorful sleeve rings. He inspired Gus Szamboti who was from the Philadelphia area also to start building cues. Any pointed cues from Doc were most likely using Gus forearms. He was famous for putting a shiny new penny inside the butt plate with the year the cue was made on it. This makes his cues easier to identify.

 

[cue fix]

I was thinking Doc when I seen the auction, but did not bid. I do not think the colors are right for a Szamboti. Close but not quite. Also, if it is a Szamboti, then Doc messed it up to get uneven points. Abe is not the only one that made cue with this type of butt sleeve, but when people see that style they automatically say it is a Rich, when in fact it may not be.

 

[Homesplice]

I was thinking Doc when I seen the auction, but did not bid. I do not think the colors are right for a Szamboti. Close but not quite. Also, if it is a Szamboti, then Doc messed it up to get uneven points. Abe is not the only one that made cue with this type of butt sleeve, but when people see that style they automatically say it is a Rich, when in fact it may not be.

That first pic is a Szamboti. While not exact, those colors look close. There are better pics on Proficients Billiards website under four point Szamboti. As I recall Jayman has a 1967 Viking with identical forearm.

 

[Homesplice]

Will probably remain a mystery, and thats ok. I like it, and will eventually pass it along to someone else who likes it

 

[GoldCrown]

Not a Doc.... however it is a sharp looking cue. Still says Rich

 

[Homesplice]

Not a Doc.... however it is a sharp looking cue. Still says Rich

Thanks

 

[Cornerman]

Not a Doc.... however it is a sharp looking cue. Still says Rich

But not an Abe Rich (which is what the thread seems to be titled).

 

[mikemosconi]

I don't think that is a Gus forearm. I have not seen his point work converge so high up on the forearm, usually even at the wrap area the outer veneers on each point are still separate from each other.

 

[mikemosconi]

This cue could also be a Karl Meyer- he was from South Jersey , I believe. I owned one at one time- he did use this style at times. I remember his cue joint was 5/16 18. Time frame was 70s 80s maybe 90s too, from what I know.

 

[Homesplice]

I don't think that is a Gus forearm. I have not seen his point work converge so high up on the forearm, usually even at the wrap area the outer veneers on each point are still separate from each other.

Think either of these are a possibility? Spain and Adam

 

[mikemosconi]

Closer to Adam - I believe. I had a Palmer Model 14 with Adam forearm.

 

[Homesplice]

Closer to Adam - I believe. I had a Palmer Model 14 with Adam forearm.

I can't

get over how close these early Doc Fryes look like my cue. Same butt, same color glitter rings on top cue with nearly same pattern of derilin rings on lower cue. Tri colored wrap. And only cues I've seen with glitter rings used that way. According to tag that was a common feature. Could find no Rich cues like that. Surprised there isn't more agreement based on these pics. I could almost superimpose my cue over those ones.
I'm guessing this is a page from the blue book of cues.

 

[cue fix]

I can'tView attachment 760181 get over how close these early Doc Fryes look like my cue. Same butt, same color glitter rings on top cue with nearly same pattern of derilin rings on lower cue. Tri colored wrap. And only cues I've seen with glitter rings used that way. According to tag that was a common feature. Could find no Rich cues like that. Surprised there isn't more agreement based on these pics. I could almost superimpose my cue over those ones.
I'm guessing this is a page from the blue book of cues.View attachment 760184

You found a cue you liked and thinking it was something special and now are searching for extra things to make it even more special. Sometimes it is what it is and nothing more. The cue in the blue book you mention does NOT have glitter rings. They are red marbled looking like most are, there is no sparkle in them. I may sound harsh, but sometimes we hope we found something extra special and have to realize we didn’t hit the jackpot. This is my 2 cents on the matter, so take it for what you think it is worth.

 

[mikemosconi]

You may not have an Abe Rich cue, you may not have a Doc Frye cue. You don't have a Szamboti forearm cue. The Palmer cue that you showed us is most probably an Adams forearm cue. There are several other cue makers - some more known than others during the 60s/70s when this cue was probably actually made. Some made cues in this style- I mentioned Karl Meyer as one. Saul Rich also had a cue company in NY- it was passed on to another partner and then H Betti- the grandfather of the current CEO of Imperial cues- bought out Saul's partner- for a short while they used up the existing stock of the old company to make cues before going 100% Asian.
Many possibilities, nothing definitive, perhaps. Enjoy it for what it is, if that is why you bought it. If you bought it thinking that you hit a jackpot for resale, perhaps not, but that is a risk anyone who hunts and picks vintage items runs with all the time. I know, I have many interests outside of cues, I've been a hunter/picker for about 30 years now- hit many jackpots and bought more than a few bombs along the way.
A hobby is about passion, a business is about money, sometimes they cross over and sometimes they don't- that's life.

 

[Homesplice]

You found a cue you liked and thinking it was something special and now are searching for extra things to make it even more special. Sometimes it is what it is and nothing more. The cue in the blue book you mention does NOT have glitter rings. They are red marbled looking like most are, there is no sparkle in them. I may sound harsh, but sometimes we hope we found something extra special and have to realize we didn’t hit the jackpot. This is my 2 cents on the matter, so take it for what you think it is worth.

Not concerned about hitting the jackpot. Not selling. Doc is a legend and who wouldn't want one of his cues? Most know what they have. More curious than anything.