Object Ball Frozen to Rail Rule

[justnum]

Ah, no, we won't be doing that.

If magic rack and sheet templates are allowed on the table than what else would be allowed?

Anti rail-ball freeze technology, is available, just say the word and I can start prototyping.
Can I count on you to be an initial tester for beta?

 

[pt109]

I would vote to do away with the drive a rail requirement all together. Snooker thrives without such a requirement.

I would think that of all the stale mates I’ve seen over the years, 98% of them have been on a snooker table...
...including the pro tournaments. I wouldn’t want to play pool without the ‘rail after contact’ rule.
....you would see stale mates bloom...and the game would become boring

 

[Z-Nole]

I was recently involved in a discussion about the Object Ball Frozen to a Rail rule and it got me thinking. Perhaps it's because I mostly play 9ball and 8ball but even when I play other games like 14.1, when an object ball is declared frozen, I never feel like my choices are suddenly limited and I never ever foul, nor do I see others foul. Honestly, I've been playing the game a long time and I can count on one hand how many times declaring a ball frozen to the rail changed anything.

To me, this results in a big waste of time. The opponent says it's frozen. The shooter disagrees. They get a ref. The ref says it's frozen and then the shooter does nearly the exact same thing they were going to do before, except they make a minor adjustment to ensure it's legal.

In fact, I would venture to say, the rule is far more applicable on the novice/intermediate level. I rarely see pros or high level amateurs jumping out of their chairs to say balls are frozen. It's nearly always done on the novice/intermediate level and most of the times it results in a foul, it's because a novice either didn't understand the rule or didn't know enough to avoid it.

If you think this rule has real value, please explain. I'm happy to be wrong here but I just think it's a silly "gotcha" moment.

Play some one pocket and your view will undoubtedly change. This is one of those cases where you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[Z-Nole]

Is there a particular game where you see these fouls most often? I'm just trying to get a sense of the most common scenarios where this rule has an effect.

In any given session of one hole this will come up at least once and usually multiple times.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Play some one pocket and your view will undoubtedly change. This is one of those cases where you don’t know what you don’t know.

Can you help me understand, instead? Maybe post an example of what you're talking about?

 

[Z-Nole]

Can you help me understand, instead? Maybe post an example of what you're talking about?

You’re left down table and hooked to shoot at your home but have several balls by your pocket. Opponent has a ball in front of his hole at the bottom rail. If it’s not frozen it’s a relatively easy safety to lag a bank and just touch that object ball and leave him hooked to clear your balls or bank one. If that ball in front of his hole is frozen it totally changes the shot. That make sense?

and don’t be one of those asshats that shoots at a frozen ball and then says “you didn’t call it frozen”. Unless you’re playing in a tournament or for a life changing amount of money (and that is different for everyone) don’t be that fucktard. If you’re gonna act like that play 9 or 10 ball. I’m sure this isn’t a popular opinion but so what.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You’re left down table and hooked to shoot at your home but have several balls by your pocket. Opponent has a ball in front of his hole at the bottom rail. If it’s not frozen it’s a relatively easy safety to lag a bank and just touch that object ball and leave him hooked to clear your balls or bank one. If that ball in front of his hole is frozen it totally changes the shot. That make sense?

and don’t be one of those asshats that shoots at a frozen ball and then says “you didn’t call it frozen”. Unless you’re playing in a tournament or for a life changing amount of money (and that is different for everyone) don’t be that fucktard. If you’re gonna act like that play 9 or 10 ball. I’m sure this isn’t a popular opinion but so what.

Okay, I know what you're talking about. There are similar kick-safes in 8ball. If that ball is frozen, the safety is a lot more dangerous.

Okay, so another question - if someone approached you for 1-hole action and said, they'd play you but no frozen-to-the-rail rule. Like, for both of you. Would you take the game or would this rule-change be a dealbreaker? Assuming you did take the game, do you think overall gameplay would be better/worse/just different? Basically, I'm asking if you'd care or not.

 

[jtompilot]

Okay, I know what you're talking about. There are similar kick-safes in 8ball. If that ball is frozen, the safety is a lot more dangerous.

Okay, so another question - if someone approached you for 1-hole action and said, they'd play you but no frozen-to-the-rail rule. Like, for both of you. Would you take the game or would this rule-change be a dealbreaker? Assuming you did take the game, do you think overall gameplay would be better/worse/just different? Basically, I'm asking if you'd care or not.

I have heard of spots where a pro gives a bad player a spot where their fouls aren’t counted. Other than that no 1P player would play that way. That’s about as stupid as saying, we don’t have to drive a ball to the rail.

Your in Austin, go play some 1P and let us know how that frozen to the rail works out. Come to Houston for Big Tyme’s tournament and we can play some 1P. I figure in 9ball I’d be a supreme underdog to you so maybe I can hang even playing some one hole.

 

[Z-Nole]

Okay, I know what you're talking about. There are similar kick-safes in 8ball. If that ball is frozen, the safety is a lot more dangerous.

Okay, so another question - if someone approached you for 1-hole action and said, they'd play you but no frozen-to-the-rail rule. Like, for both of you. Would you take the game or would this rule-change be a dealbreaker? Assuming you did take the game, do you think overall gameplay would be better/worse/just different? Basically, I'm asking if you'd care or not.

Yes, it would matter. Not because it changes the game but because it would tell me that person isn’t much of a one pocket player and it would most likely be a waste of time and a boring game.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I have heard of spots where a pro gives a bad player a spot where their fouls aren’t counted. Other than that no 1P player would play that way. That’s about as stupid as saying, we don’t have to drive a ball to the rail.

Your in Austin, go play some 1P and let us know how that frozen to the rail works out. Come to Houston for Big Tyme’s tournament and we can play some 1P. I figure in 9ball I’d be a supreme underdog to you so maybe I can hang even playing some one hole.

What tournament?

 

[jtompilot]

What tournament?

They have three tournaments in a row including 1P, there’s a flier floating around here. June 10/11 1P, 12/13 Ten ball, then the Ladies open

 

[skogstokig]

An alternative proposal is to change table conditions to avoid a ball-rail freeze

cheap fix put some hard surface under the cushion to prevent that ball rail freeze position.

you have a peculiar mind.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Its an important rule in 1P.

Can you give a specific situation in 1P where the game would stalemate on a frozen ball if the rule were changed?

 

[alphadog]

Can you give a specific situation in 1P where the game would stalemate on a frozen ball if the rule were changed?

To the best of my limited knowledge , there is no stalemate in 1 pocket.

Eliminating the rule may slow games down ?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Can you give a specific situation in 1P where the game would stalemate on a frozen ball if the rule were changed?

You do realize, you're now opening the door for 1p players to bark at you for a game.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

To the best of my limited knowledge , there is no stalemate in 1 pocket.

Eliminating the rule may slow games down ?

Did you factor in all the time you'd save by not arguing about balls frozen to rails?

 

[hang-the-9]

See, I don't think these rules are related at all. When an object ball is frozen to the rail, it activates a new foul. When the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, it eliminates a foul (specifically the double hit). This is evident by who is responsible for making the declaration. When an object ball is frozen the rail, the sitting player will make the declaration. When the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, the shooter will declare it.

Honestly, the rule that most closely resembles the frozen-to-the-rail rule is the Three Foul Rule (which, btw, I think is absolutely necessary). It's the only other instance where the sitting player must notify the shooter of a special circumstance in order to benefit.

You are talking about who is responsible for calling the foul or rule, I was talking about the actual physical circumstances around the shot. Who should call the rule to be enforced is not relevant to the rule as simply existing.

 

[Bob Jewett]

To the best of my limited knowledge , there is no stalemate in 1 pocket.

Maybe, but there should be. In a tournament it could be called if the wedge develops and lasts for an hour or two.

 

[hang-the-9]

I would think that of all the stale mates I’ve seen over the years, 98% of them have been on a snooker table...
...including the pro tournaments. I wouldn’t want to play pool without the ‘rail after contact’ rule.
....you would see stale mates bloom...and the game would become boring

Another difference between pool and snooker, the table size, pocket size and cut and shot difficulty due to those. In snooker a good safe is just leaving the object ball far away from the cueball, there is a lot less need to play a safe were actually hitting the ball is hard, just some distance or a bad angle can be safe enough. What rules and shots work for snooker don't need to translate to the pool games on 9 foot tables, larger balls and different rails and pockets.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... you would see stale mates bloom...and the game would become boring

I doubt that even 1% of racks would end in a stalemate. Can you think of any common position that would result in a stalemate at eight ball, nine ball or one pocket?