OE vs. IE on the money ball

[sjm]

While I recognize that many master the use of outside english to overcome the friction of a shot long before they get comfortable with the use of inside english, this is practice over theory.

In theoretical terms, this does not qualify as an argument in favor of using outside english.

Any player expecting to reach a high level of proficiency over the green felt must get comfortable with both inside and outside english.

I believe that one reason some top players use inside english on cut shots on the nine is that it takes some length off the subsequent path of the cue ball, thereby making a scratch less likely, for it's on the thin cuts that losing the cue ball is a legitiamte concern. Still, this is also a matter of personal preference.

The truth is, however, that all facotrs are never equal. Sometimes, there are defensive considerations in your stroke selection on the nine ball. Don't forget to factor that into your stroke selection.

That's all for now.

 

[MacGyver]

Can someone explain to me why anyone would use OE for a shot that they dont need position on?

I'll admit i'm a pool newb, but I generally hit centerball or a touch of follow and have never had any problems with cuts and whatnot...

It seems that anytime you use English and have to adjust for squirt/deflection there is going to be a little loss in accuracy unless people can really get a cueball very precise(<1/8th either way) using it...

As long as you understand CIT and where to aim using centerball hit, is there any advantage to using OE? it honestly seemed completely unneeded and only adds in another factor which can go wrong, I've never had any trouble potting balls with centerball and I just cant figure out why anyone would use it...

If you need OE to slightly increase throw or whatever, then why not just aim a little differently and use centerball?

 

[Josh Palmer]

I was shooting a nine into the corner pocket with a very slight angle to the left from being straight in. I naturally pocketed the ball with low about 5:45 on the clock (low right). After I pocketed the ball, CoolChicky from here on AZ asked me why I didn't just hit the ball dead center 6 o'clock. I didn't think much of it, because I almost always instinctively use a slight running english on shots that lay pretty natural. But I did try consciously use center instead of my running english for a while after that, just to see the change. I was pocketing the balls fine- but what it really came down to is feel. I can feel the 'surface' of the balls better when I get down with running english in mind, even if it's 1/8 of a tip. I don't have a fancy deduction to say as to why that is, but it definitely is for me.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Can someone explain to me why anyone would use OE for a shot that they dont need position on?

I'll admit i'm a pool newb, but I generally hit centerball or a touch of follow and have never had any problems with cuts and whatnot...

It seems that anytime you use English and have to adjust for squirt/deflection there is going to be a little loss in accuracy unless people can really get a cueball very precise(<1/8th either way) using it...

As long as you understand CIT and where to aim using centerball hit, is there any advantage to using OE? it honestly seemed completely unneeded and only adds in another factor which can go wrong, I've never had any trouble potting balls with centerball and I just cant figure out why anyone would use it...

If you need OE to slightly increase throw or whatever, then why not just aim a little differently and use centerball?

A couple of reasons other than position why people would use OE.
1. It can help to reduce the effect of skids.
2. Some people just naturally like to aim a little thicker and turn the angle with OE.

For me, I'll use roll or top when I can on cut shots, but there is no choice but to play a lot of shots with OE for position so best to have some confidence with it.

As for lining up differently for stun and topspin shots, I think the brain doesn't like doing this too much. It wont matter on most shots which are short, but when the OB has to travel 4+ feet to the pocket on 1/4 to 3/4 cut shots, then the difference is over a pocket width. This is where the touch of OE on the stun shot comes in handy, as it makes the contact point aim about the same as for a topspin pot.

I think the brain likes to adapt to one angle as much as possible. Kind of burn that angle into the brain, and then, when necessary, make slight adjustments to accommodate pure stun, heavy OE, greater speed, swerve etc.

 

[pete lafond]

For cut shots on the money ball (where you're not worried about CB positioning, as long as you don't scratch), do you tend to use outside english or inside english to reduce throw or minimize the risk of skids?

In general, I thought using outside english is the accepted rule of thumb to help compensate for throw effects on all cut shots, and the amount of OE used is proportional to the cut angle. However, I was watching the Sigel versus Reyes DVD (with the volume turned off so I wouldn't have to listen to the commentary) and noticed that Reyes uses both outside AND inside english on cut shots on the 8, depending on the cut angle.

It seems for the his shots with small cut angles (less than 30 degrees) he uses outside english, but for the shots with larger cut angles he uses inside english.

Observing this reminded me of Calc's thread about his video showing the different throw effects of the same cut shot with different englishes. The most predictable results are his shots using inside english, and the most unpredictable was using outside english. Though, i do not know the cut angle of that particular shot he used for his data collection (Colin?).

I guess the reasoning one would use IE is that the reverse spin of the CB adds on to the linear speed of the CB such that the surface speed of the CB at the contact point will be too fast for friction to actually take hold. This would seem to work for large cut shots, but not very well for small cut shots.

Just wondering if other people out there uses inside english on larger cut shots as well.

I tend to use outside except if a thin cut or I need to kill the CB from running around the table then I use inside. Generally never high to avoid skids.
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[pooltchr]

since you are a BCA instructor I am not going to get in an academic argument about deflection/throw etc. because i am sure you could give me the 7 ball in that department (although i doubt anywhere else). I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I simply wondered why the poster would state that using inside or outside english might make it easier to chit the contact point on an object ball. To me, you need to adjust the same for 2 tips of left as you do 2 tips of right. Grady Matthew addresses the issue of IE vs. OE on several occasions. All of those times he blatantly says when an A player is struggling or even when he is playing well, he is most likely to miss a ball when applying inside english. That seems to be the consensus from most A players I have played with. As a BCA instructor i am honestly disturbed that you would be endorsing using inside english when it is not necessary,I don't suggest using any english when it isn't necessary for position play the only time it should actually be used being 1. to obtain position/avoid a scratch Agreed2. if a ball is frozen on the rail. Agreed, in most cases not really sure why anyone would "teach" someone to use IE on a ball that does not fit those two criteria. I don't teach that, and I don't know of any other instructors who do. inside english predisposes to a "thick" or full ball hit because of the deflecting of the cue ball initially away from the OB then curving back towards it, so why would you use that on a thin cut shot? I rarely use or would teach someone to use english to make a ball. The purpose of side spin, in my opinion, is to alter the path of the cue ball after it contacts a rail. Any other use of side spin just adds variables to the shot that increase the likelihood of missing the shot. please teach me

Please remember, the majority of students I work with are not Pro level players. Teaching the easiest methods is most beneficial to these students. (K.I.S.S.) I am not going to tell Grady he is wrong. He is at a level where he can pretty much make the balls do whatever he wants them to do. In fact, I don't often tell my students they are wrong. I try to give them options, explain the advantages of those options, and let them decide if it makes sense to them.

Steve

 

[Egg McDogit]

I don't see why you'd want to deliberately put any kind of english on any ball you're shooting unless (1) you need to make position that way or (2) the shot is automatic for you when using english. you can make an argument for using english to kill skid - well instead you have different variables like squirt, distance, cloth condition, etc. pick your poison.

 

[Cornerman]

As a BCA instructor i am honestly disturbed that you would be endorsing using inside english when it is not necessary,

Let's not continue down a path of non-argument, just for argument's sake. Steve never said the above, so there's no need to defend it.

I think we can safely say that you said:

HitHrdDraw: "it is universally known that inside english is tougher..."

And others have said:

Steve, Fred, SJM, and other say (in paraphrase): that idea isn't true, shouldn't be true, and if it's true for anyone, there's help to get past it. (Correct me anyone, if I've misrepresented your thoughts)


That being said, it is clear that many (most?) players believe that inside english is tougher. But, many players (including myself) do not believe this, and have proven that it truly isn't tougher. Shouldn't those that believe that inside english is tougher put effort into making it not tougher as others have? Or should we just say "inside english is universally tougher" and then leave it at that???

Fred <~~~ glad I didn't "leave it at that."

 

[Cornerman]

I don't see why you'd want to deliberately put any kind of english on any ball you're shooting unless (1) you need to make position that way or (2) the shot is automatic for you when using english. you can make an argument for using english to kill skid - well instead you have different variables like squirt, distance, cloth condition, etc. pick your poison.

This one's is really an easy answer. Many (most) players realized that using the geometrically correct aim point, they would cut thick. They found out about spin and throw, and therefore started using outsided english to "counteract" the cut throw. When they saw it worked, they continued down that path and never looked back.

I think most players have gone through this, or are still doing this. Most have become extremely proficient (at using outside to "cancel" throw).

But, this is also why many (most) players have a hard time with inside english: because the thought process for how and why they're using outside english simply doesn't work truly the same for inside. There's more going on than just "counteracting the throw."

Analysis junkies will put down all that's going on, and the "just hit the ball" pundits will insult them for overanalyzing. If you (general) are having trouble with inside, or believe inside english is "universally known for being tougher than outside," then I suggest reading some analysis junkies' posts.


Fred <~~~ squirt and swerve. That's why.

 

[quitecoolguy]

i will thorw in my two cents.. Inside english is a amazing thing...just a half a tip of inside english on the ball ....

I use inside english to play alot of balls..just a half a tip.. i also use a predator 314 shaft.. I had a really good player give me lessons and he told me that using inside english with a 314 shaft was amazing..you simply aim at the spot to play the ball and shoot..you dont have to worry about the throw because of the shaft..he told me let the shaft do the work..and it has..my game has gone up so much in the last month..

 

[Cornerman]

If you need OE to slightly increase throw or whatever, then why not just aim a little differently and use centerball?

From a "different strokes for different folks" point of view, some people simply don't feel comfortable aiming somewhere other than where they want to hit it. I've talked about how players, even very advanced players will blend speed, english, and elevation with spectacular results, never realizing that they indeed blended some seriously difficult variables.

Either method has its own pitfalls. That's why we all need to practice the various methods with no english, with english, etc.

Fred

 

[Flex]

I don't see why you'd want to deliberately put any kind of english on any ball you're shooting unless (1) you need to make position that way or (2) the shot is automatic for you when using english. you can make an argument for using english to kill skid - well instead you have different variables like squirt, distance, cloth condition, etc. pick your poison.

Tap, tap, tap.

 

[Flex]

From a "different strokes for different folks" point of view, some people simply don't feel comfortable aiming somewhere other than where they want to hit it. I've talked about how players, even very advanced players will blend speed, english, and elevation with spectacular results, never realizing that they indeed blended some seriously difficult variables.

Either method has its own pitfalls. That's why we all need to practice the various methods with no english, with english, etc.

Fred

One of the things I've noticed when playing with a Predator 314 vs. a custom shaft made by Ed Young is that although the 314 shoots "straighter" and doesn't squirt the cue ball as much when shooting with english, nevertheless there are many many times when I prefer the way the Ed Young shaft plays. For instance, since it squirts the cue ball more, there are certain advantages when using just a bit of english. As this shaft, other things being equal, imparts less spin to the cue ball than the 314, it's somewhat more predictable, especially when it comes to longer shots using english. Also it seems I get by using less english with it. It's true I don't get the same action on the cue ball for a particular stroke, but it's more controllable, at least for me. I like both shafts, but seem to be somewhat more consistent with the Ed Young shaft. Why? Not sure...

Flex

 

[unknownpro]

since you are a BCA instructor I am not going to get in an academic argument about deflection/throw etc. because i am sure you could give me the 7 ball in that department (although i doubt anywhere else). Grady Matthew addresses the issue of IE vs. OE on several occasions. All of those times he blatantly says when an A player is struggling or even when he is playing well, he is most likely to miss a ball when applying inside english. That seems to be the consensus from most A players I have played with. As a BCA instructor i am honestly disturbed that you would be endorsing using inside english when it is not necessary, the only time it should actually be used being 1. to obtain position/avoid a scratch 2. if a ball is frozen on the rail. not really sure why anyone would "teach" someone to use IE on a ball that does not fit those two criteria. inside english predisposes to a "thick" or full ball hit because of the deflecting of the cue ball initially away from the OB then curving back towards it, so why would you use that on a thin cut shot? please teach me

Most A players know little about inside english. Many know little about outside either, but have trained to use it well in most circumstances without knowing the exact line of aim of their cue stick.

A great stroke can eliminate curve of the cueball and good aim takes into account a measured amount of cueball deflection depending on the english used. While this may not be possible for some speeds, englishes, lengths and angles, it is possible to do nearly all of the time if you choose the right combination of speed and english.

If you take your thin cut shot, even from a long distance, shoot with extreme inside center, slow with extreme follow through and aim the edge of your tip that contacts the cueball just inside the edge of the object ball you can watch the cue ball roll down the table on a straight line parallel to your stick and cut the object ball in without curving. The back of your stick should be more behind the cueball aiming across and through the cueball with side english but stroke fully through for maximum english and deflection and stroked straight toward the inside edge of the object ball. This is very easy to aim, and very easy to do.

That's why 'A' players need more than the 7, they don't realize that limiting their game to half the available english restricts them immensely.


unknownpro