Of Gambling and Gamblers (long)

Bbutler

topshots.ca
Silver Member
Wrote this a while back, seems appropriate to post it now for the forum's perusal in view of the DCC chatter. Enjoy...



No Gambling!

Walk into any pool hall and you’ll probably see a sign with those words on it. They’re so common that they’re sold in the billiard supply catalogs on a regular basis and have become de rigueur equipment for the billiard room proprietor along with rack cues and ball-washing machines.

But why are they there? Gambling is as much a part of pool as chalk dust and bad movies. Walk into any pool hall in the country – heck, walk into any place with a pool table – any it’s likely that something is being bet on the outcome of the games. Whether it’s a beer or a buck it happens every day, all the time. A conservative estimate would say that on any given day there is about $1 million being wagered on pool games in the United States. Right now as you read this, there are probably 1000 or more pool players traveling the country who make their living playing the game for money. Even the very name ‘pool’ comes from the gambling aspect of the game. It’s a simple fact, pool and gambling are synonymous.

Yet in just about every pool hall I’ve ever entered there is a sign posted that says, in one form or another, No Gambling. Some pool rooms even go so far as to mention the actual illegality of gambling and the odd one will even list the statute (in my state, Georgia, this happens to be part 16-12-21 of the state Criminal Code). The reason the sign hangs, of course, is that the owner basically doesn’t want any trouble with the law and just about everyone involved with pool is convinced that, in pretty much every state in the US, gambling is illegal. Countless times I’ve heard statements like, “I think that guy’s the law, let’s pay off at the end of the set outside,” or “guys, don’t keep the money on the lights, in case a cop walks in.”

I’ve heard it so many times that it made me wonder: Is gambling on pool really illegal?


Gambling and the Law

Well I’m sorry to say the short answer is yes. Gambling is most certainly illegal in most US states. Here is the wording of the aforementioned part 16-12-21 of the Georgia Criminal Code:

a) A person commits the offense of gambling when he:
(1) Makes a bet upon the partial or final result of any game or contest or upon the performance of any participant in such game or contest;
(2) Makes a bet upon the result of any political nomination, appointment, or election or upon the degree of success of any nominee, appointee, or candidate; or
(3) Plays and bets for money or other thing of value at any game played with cards, dice, or balls.
b) A person who commits the offense of gambling shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

Most states, especially states in the so-called Bible Belt, have similar laws with similar wording albeit with minor differences here and there. So therefore if you bet ‘anything of value’, of which money certainly qualifies, on a pool game you are guilty of a misdemeanor. A broad interpretation would include, playing for table time, playing for a cup of coffee or a beer, playing with your spouse for who does the dishes, or playing with a pretty girl for a kiss (a good lawyer would certainly question the value of playing with an ugly girl for a kiss).

Yikes! Being a regular player and a guy who likes to bet a buck or two on the games I play that therefore means that after some simple math I’ve probably committed this offense about 1500 times – and I’ve only lived in Georgia for five years! Forget three strikes, I’m looking at 1500! That’s a hall of fame number. With that kind of record I’m a die-hard criminal, and so too, probably, are you. Our mothers are ashamed.

It Gets Worse – Calcuttas

We all know how calcuttas work. Buy a player at a tournament in an auction and, if he wins or finishes high up in the money you win a certain percentage of the money generated by the auction. They happen at just about every tournament in the country and they’re great for action and for excitement.

Generally speaking, the calcutta is organized and run by the tournament director, who takes a small percentage of the money generated for him or her self (if you didn’t know this, shame on you), and generally 5-10% is about the standard.

Well here’s some bad news: not only is this illegal – it’s highly illegal. Here’s the wording of the statute from Kentucky (KRS 528.040):

(1) A person is guilty of conspiracy to promote gambling when he conspires to advance or profit from gambling activity.
(2) "Conspire" means to engage in activity constituting a criminal conspiracy as defined in KRS 506.040.
(3) Conspiracy to promote gambling is a Class D felony.

Again this is fairly standard across the US. So while the participants in a calcutta, that is the bidders, might walk away with a misdemeanor, the organizer is looking at a Class D felony. That’s 5 years imprisonment and/or a $20,000 fine!

Okay so I’m a hall of fame misdemeanor guy, but I’m no felon. That’s good news anyways, but some of you reading this have maybe done this in the past. Read on.


Hustler’s Beware

As long as there has been pool there have been pool hustlers. This is nothing new. Heck, even Louis XVI probably laid down a lemon a time or two back when he was pushing clay balls around on the back lawn. But the next time you hustle someone you better hope he doesn’t consult a lawyer. Read another excerpt from good old Georgia (13-8-3):

(a) Gambling contracts are void; and all evidences of debt, except negotiable instruments in the hands of holders in due course or encumbrances or liens on property, executed upon a gambling consideration, are void in the hands of any person.
(b) Money paid or property delivered upon a gambling consideration may be recovered from the winner by the loser by institution of an action for the same within six months after the loss and, after the expiration of that time, by institution of an action by any person, at any time within four years, for the joint use of himself and the educational fund of the county.

Now we all know that gambling debts aren’t enforceable in court, i.e. you can’t sue to collect if you’re stiffed (Nevada being a noteworthy exception), but did you know that anyone you beat can sue you within six months of a loss and recover the money you beat them for. To make matters worse anyone can sue you for money won in a gambling contest within four years so long as they’re willing to split that money with the educational fund of the county.

Well that’s good news; I think I’ll sue the winner of a certain $100,000 match that took place here in Atlanta a few years ago. I’ll have to give $50,000 (less costs) to the educational fund of Dekalb County but what the hell, that will still leave me with $50,000. 4K TV, here I come!

Okay, before you run out to file papers on your local Fast Eddie, there are a few important details. Ignoring the ethical considerations (i.e. he would have paid you if he had lost), there’s a fairly heavy burden of proof on the part of the plaintiff to prove a) that the event actually took place, b) that the money actually changed hands and c) that the event, if it took place, was actually a gambling contest. Thus if you paid off in cash you’re pretty much screwed (unless you got a receipt). Now if you gave over the deed to your house or your life insurance policy you might stand a chance but again, I suggest you consult with an attorney (and a shrink if you were stupid enough to bet your house because, let’s face it, you need help). Also, if you were to happen to win, there’s still the issue of collecting. But none of that changes the law – in theory you can be sued by a loser for money you won gambling.

Okay so we’re all raging criminals who could lose all of our lifetime pool profits in one fell swoop from a judge’s gavel. Things are not looking good. But wait, there’s hope.


The Nature of Skill

So all of these states have these laws against gambling and they discovered, much their chagrin, that the laws are a little too broad. It seems that, if you go by the strict interpretation of the various statutes you are actually breaking the law if you go to a carnival and win a stuffed animal by knocking down milk bottles with a baseball. Have you ever plugged a quarter into one of those ‘crane games’ where you maneuver a miniature jaws-of-life into a sea of prizes and try and grab one for your girlfriend? You criminal! After all, you’re betting money on a game or contest to win something of value, aren’t you?

And therein lays the catch. It seems that the laws as written criminalize too much behavior. Excepting the fact that more money is bet on golf courses than will ever be bet in pool halls, the law as written would make a criminal of every kid who ever played a game at the local Chuck E. Cheese (no wonder that mouse is smiling all the time – he’s a major bookie!)

It’s for this reason that most states have exceptions to their strict gambling laws, referred to by witty lawyers as the ‘Chuck E. Cheese’ laws. Essentially these amendments indemnify games that require skill. Here’s the wording from GCC 16-12-35 (again, most states have something similar):

(a.1) As used in this Code section, the term "some skill" means any presence of the following factors, alone or in combination with one another:
(1) A learned power of doing a thing competently;
(2) A particular craft, art, ability, strategy, or tactic;
(3) A developed or acquired aptitude or ability;
(4) A coordinated set of actions, including, but not limited to, eye-hand coordination;
(5) Dexterity, fluency, or coordination in the execution of learned physical or mental tasks or both;
(6) Technical proficiency or expertise;
(7) Development or implementation of strategy or tactics in order to achieve a goal; or
(8) Knowledge of the means or methods of accomplishing a task.

continued in next post...
 
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(continued from above)

These laws have been tested too, and games of skill seem to be winning. The decided cases hold that in order to be a “game of skill” the elements of skill must predominate over those of chance in determining the outcome, as evidenced by the California ruling In re Allen :

“The term ‘game of chance’ has an accepted meaning established by numerous adjudications. Although different language is used in some of the cases in defining the term, the definitions are substantially the same. It is the character of the game rather than a particular player's skill or lack of it that determines whether the game is one of chance or skill. The test is not whether the game contains an element of chance or an element of skill but which of them is the dominating factor in determining the result of the game.”

The law has similarly been put to the test by backgammon players who claim that their game is predominately skill oriented, and currently there is a great deal of legal debate raging over whether poker falls under this category, and several big-time poker players have engaged with big-time lawyers to fight on their behalf that poker is enough of a game of skill to be indemnified under laws such as this one. The general feeling is that, while poker and backgammon (because they use cards and dice, respectively) may not survive such scrutiny, games like golf, tennis, bowling, and darts are games which would clearly be immune from just about any interpretation of the gambling laws insofar as the participants are waging a skilled contest where luck is a miniscule factor.

Essentially, there are three elements that must be present in order for illegal gambling to take place, and according to Chuck Humprhey , a Colorado lawyer specializing in such areas they are a) prize, b) chance and c) consideration.

“Prize refers to the fact that there must be a prize of value at the end of the contest,” says Humphrey. “Chance refers to the element of luck involved, as in craps or blackjack, and consideration is the element put up by the game player, the stake money, if you will. If you remove any one of those elements then the act can no longer be called gambling.

“This is why it is legal for entities like Mc Donald’s or Wendy’s to have contests on a regular basis – because they’re free – they remove the issue of consideration.” In other words, since you don’t bet anything to play the Mc Donald’s Monopoly game it’s not considered gambling. The same also holds true if you plug quarters into a Donkey Kong game – since there is no element of prize, i.e. you can’t win anything, there is no gambling. Okay, that makes sense.

The same must then hold true if you remove the second element, chance. And by nature a game like pool is one where, although some luck is present, the predominant factor in deciding the outcome is skill. As such, since one of the key elements of ‘gambling’ has been removed, it no longer falls under the blanket term of ‘gambling’ as defined by the law. Therefore it is not illegal! Quod erat demonstrantum.

So it’s not Gambling – or is it?

So we’re safe – no misdemeanor charges for betting table time, no hungry lawyers looking to sue you for someone else’s loses, no worry about hard time if you run a calcutta. All of those issues are covered under the blanket term of gambling. When that’s removed, the statute no longer applies. Finally some good news.

Sadly, there are some details. Humphrey is quick to point out some important facts. “It’s important not to generalize about any law for the entire US, because, as we know, each state writes its own laws. The indemnification of games of skill vs. games of chance is present in only about two thirds of US states.” Some states have no skill vs. luck elements in their laws and some actually go so far as to expressly indicate gambling on pool as illegal (Florida is an example). Wisconsin, by contrast, actually has legislation that points to the exact nature by which a game can be considered one of skill or one of luck. “The wisest thing,” says Humphrey, “is to check the statute for the state with which you are concerned, or to consult an attorney.”

Calcuttas are also a touchy issue. “Some jurisdictions permit calcuttas and other pari-mutual type wagering on contests of skill, but some do not,” says Humphrey. California, for example, ignored calcuttas for years and years and then all of a sudden started raiding them. In one famous case they actually raided one of the most exclusive golf clubs in Palm Springs and seized over $300,000 from a calcutta purse. Again, the best advice is to check the local laws, or to consult an attorney.

Another interesting issue is that of side betting, or betting on a game in which you are not directly involved as a participant. Says Humphrey, “…in a case where two individuals are playing a game such as pool or golf, and they happen to be of equal skill, either by ability or by handicap, then it can be argued that the outcome of that particular contest, from the point of view of the party placing an outside wager, will be determined by luck. Hence the blanket definition of ‘gambling’ may apply.” Thus the act of side betting may be illegal, though this hasn’t been court tested to any great extent.

But if you’re just a guy or girl who enjoys sociable or not-so-sociable wagering on pool then relax because, in most of the US anyways, you’re not a criminal. Heck, the next time a cop walks into your local pool room you could even ask him or her to hold the stake money! But a word to the wise, it’s far easier for the local constabulary to charge you with a crime than it is for you to defend that charge in court, even if you’re a cinch winner. My advice is to do what we always do – keep it shady.

But please take down the signs!
 
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I never gambled or hustled at pool outside of Texas.

Wrote this a while back, seems appropriate to post it now for the forum's perusal in view of the DCC chatter. Enjoy...



No Gambling!

Walk into any pool hall and you’ll probably see a sign with those words on it. They’re so common that they’re sold in the billiard supply catalogs on a regular basis and have become de rigueur equipment for the billiard room proprietor along with rack cues and ball-washing machines.

But why are they there? Gambling is as much a part of pool as chalk dust and bad movies. Walk into any pool hall in the country – heck, walk into any place with a pool table – any it’s likely that something is being bet on the outcome of the games. Whether it’s a beer or a buck it happens every day, all the time. A conservative estimate would say that on any given day there is about $1 million being wagered on pool games in the United States. Right now as you read this, there are probably 1000 or more pool players traveling the country who make their living playing the game for money. Even the very name ‘pool’ comes from the gambling aspect of the game. It’s a simple fact, pool and gambling are synonymous.

Yet in just about every pool hall I’ve ever entered there is a sign posted that says, in one form or another, No Gambling. Some pool rooms even go so far as to mention the actual illegality of gambling and the odd one will even list the statute (in my state, Georgia, this happens to be part 16-12-21 of the state Criminal Code). The reason the sign hangs, of course, is that the owner basically doesn’t want any trouble with the law and just about everyone involved with pool is convinced that, in pretty much every state in the US, gambling is illegal. Countless times I’ve heard statements like, “I think that guy’s the law, let’s pay off at the end of the set outside,” or “guys, don’t keep the money on the lights, in case a cop walks in.”

I’ve heard it so many times that it made me wonder: Is gambling on pool really illegal?


Gambling and the Law

Well I’m sorry to say the short answer is yes. Gambling is most certainly illegal in most US states. Here is the wording of the aforementioned part 16-12-21 of the Georgia Criminal Code:

a) A person commits the offense of gambling when he:
(1) Makes a bet upon the partial or final result of any game or contest or upon the performance of any participant in such game or contest;
(2) Makes a bet upon the result of any political nomination, appointment, or election or upon the degree of success of any nominee, appointee, or candidate; or
(3) Plays and bets for money or other thing of value at any game played with cards, dice, or balls.
b) A person who commits the offense of gambling shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

Most states, especially states in the so-called Bible Belt, have similar laws with similar wording albeit with minor differences here and there. So therefore if you bet ‘anything of value’, of which money certainly qualifies, on a pool game you are guilty of a misdemeanor. A broad interpretation would include, playing for table time, playing for a cup of coffee or a beer, playing with your spouse for who does the dishes, or playing with a pretty girl for a kiss (a good lawyer would certainly question the value of playing with an ugly girl for a kiss).

Yikes! Being a regular player and a guy who likes to bet a buck or two on the games I play that therefore means that after some simple math I’ve probably committed this offense about 1500 times – and I’ve only lived in Georgia for five years! Forget three strikes, I’m looking at 1500! That’s a hall of fame number. With that kind of record I’m a die-hard criminal, and so too, probably, are you. Our mothers are ashamed.

It Gets Worse – Calcuttas

We all know how calcuttas work. Buy a player at a tournament in an auction and, if he wins or finishes high up in the money you win a certain percentage of the money generated by the auction. They happen at just about every tournament in the country and they’re great for action and for excitement.

Generally speaking, the calcutta is organized and run by the tournament director, who takes a small percentage of the money generated for him or her self (if you didn’t know this, shame on you), and generally 5-10% is about the standard.

Well here’s some bad news: not only is this illegal – it’s highly illegal. Here’s the wording of the statute from Kentucky (KRS 528.040):

(1) A person is guilty of conspiracy to promote gambling when he conspires to advance or profit from gambling activity.
(2) "Conspire" means to engage in activity constituting a criminal conspiracy as defined in KRS 506.040.
(3) Conspiracy to promote gambling is a Class D felony.

Again this is fairly standard across the US. So while the participants in a calcutta, that is the bidders, might walk away with a misdemeanor, the organizer is looking at a Class D felony. That’s 5 years imprisonment and/or a $20,000 fine!

Okay so I’m a hall of fame misdemeanor guy, but I’m no felon. That’s good news anyways, but some of you reading this have maybe done this in the past. Read on.


Hustler’s Beware

As long as there has been pool there have been pool hustlers. This is nothing new. Heck, even Louis XVI probably laid down a lemon a time or two back when he was pushing clay balls around on the back lawn. But the next time you hustle someone you better hope he doesn’t consult a lawyer. Read another excerpt from good old Georgia (13-8-3):

(a) Gambling contracts are void; and all evidences of debt, except negotiable instruments in the hands of holders in due course or encumbrances or liens on property, executed upon a gambling consideration, are void in the hands of any person.
(b) Money paid or property delivered upon a gambling consideration may be recovered from the winner by the loser by institution of an action for the same within six months after the loss and, after the expiration of that time, by institution of an action by any person, at any time within four years, for the joint use of himself and the educational fund of the county.

Now we all know that gambling debts aren’t enforceable in court, i.e. you can’t sue to collect if you’re stiffed (Nevada being a noteworthy exception), but did you know that anyone you beat can sue you within six months of a loss and recover the money you beat them for. To make matters worse anyone can sue you for money won in a gambling contest within four years so long as they’re willing to split that money with the educational fund of the county.

Well that’s good news; I think I’ll sue the winner of a certain $100,000 match that took place here in Atlanta a few years ago. I’ll have to give $50,000 (less costs) to the educational fund of Dekalb County but what the hell, that will still leave me with $50,000. 4K TV, here I come!

Okay, before you run out to file papers on your local Fast Eddie, there are a few important details. Ignoring the ethical considerations (i.e. he would have paid you if he had lost), there’s a fairly heavy burden of proof on the part of the plaintiff to prove a) that the event actually took place, b) that the money actually changed hands and c) that the event, if it took place, was actually a gambling contest. Thus if you paid off in cash you’re pretty much screwed (unless you got a receipt). Now if you gave over the deed to your house or your life insurance policy you might stand a chance but again, I suggest you consult with an attorney (and a shrink if you were stupid enough to bet your house because, let’s face it, you need help). Also, if you were to happen to win, there’s still the issue of collecting. But none of that changes the law – in theory you can be sued by a loser for money you won gambling.

Okay so we’re all raging criminals who could lose all of our lifetime pool profits in one fell swoop from a judge’s gavel. Things are not looking good. But wait, there’s hope.


The Nature of Skill

So all of these states have these laws against gambling and they discovered, much their chagrin, that the laws are a little too broad. It seems that, if you go by the strict interpretation of the various statutes you are actually breaking the law if you go to a carnival and win a stuffed animal by knocking down milk bottles with a baseball. Have you ever plugged a quarter into one of those ‘crane games’ where you maneuver a miniature jaws-of-life into a sea of prizes and try and grab one for your girlfriend? You criminal! After all, you’re betting money on a game or contest to win something of value, aren’t you?

And therein lays the catch. It seems that the laws as written criminalize too much behavior. Excepting the fact that more money is bet on golf courses than will ever be bet in pool halls, the law as written would make a criminal of every kid who ever played a game at the local Chuck E. Cheese (no wonder that mouse is smiling all the time – he’s a major bookie!)

It’s for this reason that most states have exceptions to their strict gambling laws, referred to by witty lawyers as the ‘Chuck E. Cheese’ laws. Essentially these amendments indemnify games that require skill. Here’s the wording from GCC 16-12-35 (again, most states have something similar):

(a.1) As used in this Code section, the term "some skill" means any presence of the following factors, alone or in combination with one another:
(1) A learned power of doing a thing competently;
(2) A particular craft, art, ability, strategy, or tactic;
(3) A developed or acquired aptitude or ability;
(4) A coordinated set of actions, including, but not limited to, eye-hand coordination;
(5) Dexterity, fluency, or coordination in the execution of learned physical or mental tasks or both;
(6) Technical proficiency or expertise;
(7) Development or implementation of strategy or tactics in order to achieve a goal; or
(8) Knowledge of the means or methods of accomplishing a task.

continued in next post...


Very interesting, I've read the Texas one, it's quite a bit different, pool is considered a skill game and the gambling refers to dice and cards.

I'm sure glad I never gambled or hustled at pool outside of Texas. ;)
 
Very interesting, I've read the Texas one, it's quite a bit different, pool is considered a skill game and the gambling refers to dice and cards.

I'm sure glad I never gambled or hustled at pool outside of Texas. ;)

I would not want to go to court and take my chances. The "No Gambling" signs give the owner "Plausible deniability". I know the argument about game of skill and so forth but I would not want to be in court making that argument.
True story. I bar in our town got busted for selling football cards. What could they do for $1.00 football cards. Well, he lost his beverage license for 4 months. He said it cost him around $250,000. over stupid $1.00 football cards.

If someone is arrested in a pool room for gambling and they go after the owner for condoning it, "Running a gambling establishment". Remember he is charging them to play and making money off other sales.

Actually, in most states any pool tournament that gives a prize and charges an entry fee is breaking the law. Most pool leagues would also be illegal as well by the strictest reading of gambling laws.

You have seen giveaways at places like McDonald's where it says, "No purchase necessary". Otherwise it becomes a lottery.
 
I would not want to go to court and take my chances. The "No Gambling" signs give the owner "Plausible deniability". I know the argument about game of skill and so forth but I would not want to be in court making that argument.
True story. I bar in our town got busted for selling football cards. What could they do for $1.00 football cards. Well, he lost his beverage license for 4 months. He said it cost him around $250,000. over stupid $1.00 football cards.

If someone is arrested in a pool room for gambling and they go after the owner for condoning it, "Running a gambling establishment". Remember he is charging them to play and making money off other sales.

Actually, in most states any pool tournament that gives a prize and charges an entry fee is breaking the law. Most pool leagues would also be illegal as well by the strictest reading of gambling laws.

You have seen giveaways at places like McDonald's where it says, "No purchase necessary". Otherwise it becomes a lottery.

Bolded is categorically untrue, or things like the PGA and ATP tour could not exist. How could it?
 
They want their tax money, so the IRS doesn't care

I would not want to go to court and take my chances. The "No Gambling" signs give the owner "Plausible deniability". I know the argument about game of skill and so forth but I would not want to be in court making that argument.
True story. I bar in our town got busted for selling football cards. What could they do for $1.00 football cards. Well, he lost his beverage license for 4 months. He said it cost him around $250,000. over stupid $1.00 football cards.

If someone is arrested in a pool room for gambling and they go after the owner for condoning it, "Running a gambling establishment". Remember he is charging them to play and making money off other sales.

Actually, in most states any pool tournament that gives a prize and charges an entry fee is breaking the law. Most pool leagues would also be illegal as well by the strictest reading of gambling laws.

You have seen giveaways at places like McDonald's where it says, "No purchase necessary". Otherwise it becomes a lottery.

You can purchase a Federal Gambling Stamp. They want their tax money, so the IRS doesn't care. I have been up against the scrutiny of the IRS and they never mentioned the legality of gambling, they just want a piece of the revenue generated (you can even be bookie and operate in Texas).
 
Bolded is categorically untrue, or things like the PGA and ATP tour could not exist. How could it?
One reason (concerning PGA) is that it is a "clean, gentlemanly sport, filled with lawyers, judges, college teachers, and other refined people"
Whereas pool is "just a bunch of criminals and drunks wanting to take a swing at someone since they (the pool players) used to be boxers and liked to beat up everyone"
:)
 
One reason (concerning PGA) is that it is a "clean, gentlemanly sport, filled with lawyers, judges, college teachers, and other refined people"
Whereas pool is "just a bunch of criminals and drunks wanting to take a swing at someone since they (the pool players) used to be boxers and liked to beat up everyone"
:)

While true this wouldn't have an impact on whether the authorities felt that 'pay for prizes' golf or pool tournaments qualified as 'gambling'. If they did I'm pretty sure they'd shut them down, but of course how could they? It would make no sense.

Anyways, I hope those who read it liked the article. I have a few more too that I'll post in coming weeks.
 
a place that puts up such a sign. unless he lets everyone know its bullcrap will find his bread and butter customers going elsewhere as they should.

not just because they cant gamble but his pool playing customers then know that on the odd chance someone comes in and wants to throw away a bunch of money playing they cant get it. so why not go where you can.
 
gambling 1968

a place that puts up such a sign. unless he lets everyone know its bullcrap will find his bread and butter customers going elsewhere as they should.

not just because they cant gamble but his pool playing customers then know that on the odd chance someone comes in and wants to throw away a bunch of money playing they cant get it. so why not go where you can.

In 1968 I was arrested for "gambling" in Wisconsin. As a fill-in bartender, I sold a $2 tip on a Packer game to a state undercover agent. It was part of a "crackdown" on gambling that included busting bars and coffee shops for giving free games on pinball machines!

I had played pool with the undercover agent for $2 a game, but he didn't bust anybody for that. The law had been challenged to exempt betting on yourself while playing pool.
 
Very interesting, I've read the Texas one, it's quite a bit different, pool is considered a skill game and the gambling refers to dice and cards.

I'm sure glad I never gambled or hustled at pool outside of Texas. ;)

Rofl yeah . and my name is Benjamin Franklin .

Ironically Texas was one of the last states to un-ban pool playing in all forms.
And it wasn't really that long ago.

One of the last states to repeal the blue laws and you couldn't even buy a lottery ticket until what...the late 80s or early 90s
 
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Bolded is categorically untrue, or things like the PGA and ATP tour could not exist. How could it?

They make exceptions. In Florida pool rooms are held to different rules then a bowling alley. They actually in the gambling law have bowling alley leagues excepted from the gambling laws. It is political.
 
One reason (concerning PGA) is that it is a "clean, gentlemanly sport, filled with lawyers, judges, college teachers, and other refined people"
Whereas pool is "just a bunch of criminals and drunks wanting to take a swing at someone since they (the pool players) used to be boxers and liked to beat up everyone"
:)

I don't believe there is anything of an entry fee to speak of in golf.. Winning a million dollars for a $75.00 registration fee is different from a pool tournament where the entire prize fund is put up by the players themselves. That by any definition is gambling.

Add to that, the promoters may be charging a green fee to play. In effect they are acting like a casino providing a forum to gambling and making a profit from the venture.

Also in most cities counties states you have to have a permit or be registered as a sports promoter with a license. Same as if you came to town and wanted to put on a carnival.

You need a license and permits. Few pool tournaments are actually legally run if you looked close. And forget about taxes.
 
No way are there 1000 full time pool hustlers on the road today! Lucky there are 10.

People won't go off for the cash like they used to. If you make 10 or 20 k a year on pool you are doing pretty well. There might be a few hundred doing that much. I used to make about 10 k a year shooting pool and gambling. Now it's getting to be a joke. Nobody has the heart to matchup.
 
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Tournaments?

This is a subject In which I'm very interested. The laws concerning contests, sweepstakes and lotteries seem very complex.

Are tournaments covered by these laws? Can a tournament involve only two players and a single game of pool and no third party tournament organizer? And then, start another tournament between the same two players immediately?

Don
 
No way are there 1000 full time pool hustlers on the road today! Lucky there are 10.

People won't go off for the cash like they used to. If you make 10 or 20 k a year on pool you are doing pretty well. There might be a few hundred doing that much. I used to make about 10 k a year shooting pool and gambling. Now it's getting to be a joke. Nobody has the heart to matchup.

Well I wrote this a few years back, so that's true, but there are still probably more than you think. No question the road player environment is changing though, which is too bad in a way.
 
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