offense vs defense

There is a ton of strategy in 8 ball. Simply put, safeties win games. If you try to get out every rack, every single one, good luck with that, especially if you are playing someone that can play. The absolute worst thing you can do in this game is run 6 or 7 balls and not get out. You will be racking or kicking.:)
 
SandFox said:
I was recently in a 48 team tournament but of those 48 very few would actually use any defense now this is 8 ball on a bar box table mind you but still instead of trying to play a safe they would go for low percentage shots.

Anyone have any thoughts on straight offense vs smart defense?
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Good question, but a quite complicated one from my perspective. There really isn't a definitive answer, as it all depends on the situation. I'll list several major possibilities:

1. Low-percentage shot vs easy safe against a weaker opponent - using the safety should be a better option, their only chance would be to luck something in

2. Low-percentage shot vs difficult safe against a weak player - do whatever you want, no matter if you succeed or fail the opponent most likely won't manage to run out

3. Low percentage shot vs easy safe against a strong player - depends how "safe" that safe actually is. Usually the safety will be a better option, but in case you know the opponent and feel he or she will get out of it without too much struggle, maybe the low-percentage shot would be wiser. After all, if you miss, there's still a possibility of an unintentional safe.

4. Low-percentage shot vs difficult safe against a strong player - I'd advise you to go for the low-percentage shot. Both options are equally bad, but by shooting you at least give yourself a chance of making that ball, and you can even get lucky with an unintentional safe. If you go for the safety and miss, you're probably doomed, and if you play it right, you may still be doomed.
 
SandFox said:
I was recently in a 48 team tournament but of those 48 very few would actually use any defense now this is 8 ball on a bar box table mind you but still instead of trying to play a safe they would go for low percentage shots.

Anyone have any thoughts on straight offense vs smart defense?
Click to expand...

Question for you... What did the best players look like they preferred?

I've never played or won an 8-ball tournament that the last few people standing weren't offense-dominant players. The best ball runners and pattern players normally win. I'm not suggesting to abandon safety play, but offense trumps defense at the advanced levels. It's a pretty obvious observation.

Freddie <~~~ offensive
 
It`s all about getting the odds in your favour, so you play the shot that gives you the highest chance of winning.
 
Football is one of my favorite sports

I also love pool, although it would be hard to compare the two in many ways. However, strong defense is a tool that all of the top pool players possess.

The Seattle Seahawks just wont the super bowl. They have arguably the best defense in the league, however their offense is not perfect. Lynch is an awesome running back and Wilson has done well to limit his turnovers. All they usually need is 2-3 touchdowns to win a game- their defense will keep the opponent from scoring enough to win.

In pool, if you have a sound offense and know when to play a safety, you limit your opponents chances of winning. Going for very low percentage offensive shots is the downfall of many players, especially when an easy safety is looking them in the face.

I find that the more I practice defensive shots, the more I appreciate a nicely executed safety- whether from myself, an opponent, or anyone really. If the person I am playing in league thinks safeties are for wimps or are a cheap move, well then his/her mind is no longer focused on their own game, which is a good thing for me.

Looking at any of the top 20 mens or womens players in the world, I doubt anyone can claim that any of these players does not have at least a 'very good' defensive game.
 
I got a big smile on my face when I saw that P&P chimed in to this particular discussion...

but then it turned out that he in fact worded out quite a reasonable opinion. I wholeheartedly agree with Pushers, but I also feel so empty inside now :(
 
A friend of mine a very accomplished player states it like this "you shoot to win, not to not lose." Granted he is an aggressive player, but I have noticed in my own play I win more by shot making than hiding. There is a definite place for defense in a game but the more you attempt the riskier shots and began making them they lose an element of risk.
 
TheThaiger said:
I'm not sure how but defence needs to be eliminated from pool. I was going to say especially at pro levels, but watching two beginners go all defensive is tortuous in the extreme.

I've noticed an obsession with defence on this site. I think it comes at the detriment of offence, which is unhelpful in the long term. People place too much emphasis on winning and not enough on being able to play IMO.

As ever, nobody will agree lol.
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I do not like playing safe but in my league if you want to win you better be able to play safe. If I go to the table looking at a low percentage shot, I will play safe because more likely than not if I miss the shot my opponent will run out on me.
 
Depends on Scoring Format

SandFox said:
I was recently in a 48 team tournament but of those 48 very few would actually use any defense now this is 8 ball on a bar box table mind you but still instead of trying to play a safe they would go for low percentage shots.

Anyone have any thoughts on straight offense vs smart defense?
Click to expand...

I'm surprised nobody has touched on this but the scoring format used has a lot to do with whether or not safeties are even worthwhile.

In a typical BCA team event, each rack is worth 1 point and you play to a set number. In this format, safeties often times make sense.

In other tournies (ACS for example) they may score each rack by the number of balls pocketed. So the winner will get 10 points and the loser will get however many balls they pocketed. So if you manage to break and run a rack you will win 10-0 (or 10-1, 10-2 if you happened to pocket one or more of your opponent's balls on the break), these 10-0 scores are huge for your team. This changes the value of a safety quite a bit.

Now say, you are in the middle of a run out and screw up and you have three of your balls left on the table and the eight. What do you do? If you elect to play safe, you may never get another chance to score these balls. So you're effectively leaving points on the table. This can be bad in this format. This is why I think a lot of teams just throw caution to the wind and constantly go for the out. Even if you only have a 25% chance of getting out. The reward is a 10-0. If you don't get out you are only going to lose 10-7. Now if you play safe and get out moved, which is likely against a good player since they have all their balls to play with you may end up losing 10-3 or 10-4.

So, the scoring format has a lot to do with it. I like the ball count method. Players try to run out more and this really speeds things up.
 
I think it boils down to this - the stronger the level of player, the less effective defense is.
Even though stronger players are capable of playing nasty lockdown safeties.

Weak players whiff kicks entirely and don't clear the object ball when they jump.
Intermediates at least get a good hit on most jumps, but often sell out, and still whiff some kicks.
Pros seldom fail to get a hit and often can do so with control to leave a safe or a tough shot.

When you watch pro 8-ball tournaments (barbox or big table) then they RARELY play safeties.
I mean very rarely. Look at the stats for some TAR 8-ball matches. In races to 23 or 27,
you will see about 50 racks of pool and maybe 2 safeties.
The focus is 100% to run out and most of the time, they do.

There could be a few reasons players in your barbox event were avoiding safeties.

- They want to play like the pros do, even if they don't quite have the skills.
We all like to imagine we can run every rack. And it's fun to try.

- They overestimate the opponent and fear giving up control of the table.

- They underestimate the opponent and just think "I'll try to make as many balls as I can
before I miss, they probably won't get out even if I do dog this shot. Then I can mop up."

- They think there's no excuse not to get out on a barbox, even though barbox
8-ball is arguably tougher than big table 8-ball.
 
TheThaiger said:
I'm not sure how but defence needs to be eliminated from pool. I was going to say especially at pro levels, but watching two beginners go all defensive is tortuous in the extreme.

I've noticed an obsession with defence on this site. I think it comes at the detriment of offence, which is unhelpful in the long term. People place too much emphasis on winning and not enough on being able to play IMO.

As ever, nobody will agree lol.
Click to expand...
I don't think that defense needs to be eliminated from pool altogether, but I think that rotation style-games would be better without it because it's too easy to play defense when there is only one ball to hide. I proposed a possible solution in another thread: always giving the incoming player the option to give the table back to their opponent. I think that would make the game much more interesting and eliminate one of my biggest frustrations with the game: the lucky roll on a miss that leaves your opponent hooked.
 
BasementDweller said:
I'm surprised nobody has touched on this but the scoring format used has a lot to do with whether or not safeties are even worthwhile.

In a typical BCA team event, each rack is worth 1 point and you play to a set number. In this format, safeties often times make sense.

In other tournies (ACS for example) they may score each rack by the number of balls pocketed. So the winner will get 10 points and the loser will get however many balls they pocketed. So if you manage to break and run a rack you will win 10-0 (or 10-1, 10-2 if you happened to pocket one or more of your opponent's balls on the break), these 10-0 scores are huge for your team. This changes the value of a safety quite a bit.

Now say, you are in the middle of a run out and screw up and you have three of your balls left on the table and the eight. What do you do? If you elect to play safe, you may never get another chance to score these balls. So you're effectively leaving points on the table. This can be bad in this format. This is why I think a lot of teams just throw caution to the wind and constantly go for the out. Even if you only have a 25% chance of getting out. The reward is a 10-0. If you don't get out you are only going to lose 10-7. Now if you play safe and get out moved, which is likely against a good player since they have all their balls to play with you may end up losing 10-3 or 10-4.

So, the scoring format has a lot to do with it. I like the ball count method. Players try to run out more and this really speeds things up.
Click to expand...
Counting balls in 8-ball is one of the most backwards scoring methods I've ever played with. It makes it an entirely different game where a player gets rewarded for making balls even if they have no intention of running out. IMO, the worst way to lose a game of 8-ball is to run 7 balls and miss the 8, but in the ball count formats, that's the best way to lose.
 
Rasputin said:
I got a big smile on my face when I saw that P&P chimed in to this particular discussion...

but then it turned out that he in fact worded out quite a reasonable opinion. I wholeheartedly agree with Pushers, but I also feel so empty inside now :(
Click to expand...

I had to look at his avatar twice to make sure it was actually his post I was reading. His post is actually correct, and shows some knowledge of the game. Knowledge that he has shown no clue of in the past. Which means he blew it and let the cat out of the bag. The guy is not the noob he professes to be. Which means he is here just to push others buttons.
 
Matt said:
Counting balls in 8-ball is one of the most backwards scoring methods I've ever played with. It makes it an entirely different game where a player gets rewarded for making balls even if they have no intention of running out. IMO, the worst way to lose a game of 8-ball is to run 7 balls and miss the 8, but in the ball count formats, that's the best way to lose.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying and I agree with the logic on the one hand but at the same time I think the ball count method really speeds things up. Instead of having those teams that try to grind out every rack you have teams that are trying to run out. You still get the occasional safety battle but they are reserved for the really messed up racks and the final few.

I could be wrong but I think tournaments using this format probably move along a little faster than just a simple race format. I have no numbers to back this up so it could turn out that the difference may be totally insignificant.
 
My 8-ball game has gotten much better over the last couple months, since I've made a concerted effort to allow for, and even plan for safeties. I have gotten better at them, as a result.

If my ability to get shape was better, I wouldn't need to play as many safeties as I do currently. Sigh.

The frustrating part for me is that despite my improvement in safeties playing 8-ball, I struggle playing good safes playing 9-ball. Which goes back to my need to improve getting shape, yada yada yada... :p
 
Defense is huge in 8 ball, unless you're going to run out. If you can't run out and have to duck on the 8 ball, or the last ball before, it's super easy for your opponent to hook you with all their balls left on the table. They can just do that once or twice while rearranging their balls and then you'll just watch them run out with no traffic on the table.

That's why going for the run out all the time is a bad decision, never mind what the pros do, unless you play like the pros.

Good rule of thumb in 8 ball is don't take your soldiers off the field until it's time to take them ALL off the field.
 
For me, it depends entirely on the options available.

I like to plan my shots out, and take calculated risks. Now, I'm an excellent shot maker even in the worst predicaments but still there are times when playing a defensive safe outweighs playing an offensive battle.

Even with ball in hand - sometimes it's best to knock loose cluster balls to get a better position on your next shot while still playing a safety.

I was very much a player who loved to shoot, and would always play offensive until I started getting beaten by the APA 9s. I learned my lesson quick and still practice safety/defensive play almost every day.

-Richard
 
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