OK, 9-Ball Gurus, How Would You Play This?
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
TheOne said:
The One,
You have summed it up in a nutshell. Trying to cut that 7 hard enough to come 2 rails for position on the 8 fills the hearts of wimpy straight pool players with dread; they would like nothing better than to be able to slow roll it without having to worry about position on the 8 (surely the chance of pocketing the 7 goes up a little bit). Flamethrowing NineBall Guy looks at it and says, "what the f$%k is the problem, fire that thing in there." That confidence has to increase his make percentage a little bit. As long as the player is committed to his plan, I like his chances of getting out (as long as he shoots a little better than I do).
I also like your avoidance of contact principle. Any unnecessary contact should be avoided at all costs (a principle which must be violated about every other rack in straight pool). Of course, as a great man said, "all generalizations are wrong - including this one."
Williebetmore said:
First and foremost, hope you read the postscript I added to post #38 in this thread. Sorry if I got silly on you, I know you're just trying to be a nice guy, and having met you, I know that's just what you are.
The avoidance of contact principle is a valuable guideline, but there are many exceptions to it. As a rule, when balls can be repositioned favorably with virtually no down side, it will often be advisable to do just that. As you've noted, straight pool players do it all the time.
The only possible downside that I've heard noted in this thread for bumping the eight out is that you could possible freeze the cue ball to the top rail. I'd say the risk is minimal, and that it would take a pretty poor effort to do that. Still, for the sake of argument, so what if you did make that mistake? The two to the three is still pretty simple. Why would anyone who considered the twice across draw off the seven ball routine be at all worried about getting from the two to the three even if they were frozen to the top rail? After all, they'd still have an angle on the two.
To me, it sounds like you've got the right teacher, but in the end, both TheOne and your teacher are correct. The no contact rule is a valuable guideline, but if you are able to identify opportunities to improve the layout in a way that is easily accomplished and carries neglible risk, you will get more out of your game.
The beauty of it, though, is there is no right answer. It's all a matter of opinion, and the opinions that you have offered show that your teacher is giving you a fine appreciation for the game and its theory.
So, one last time, three cheers for all who partiipated in this thread. You guys really know your pool!
poolguy123
Registered
I've read this whole thread and it is now as clear as mud 
No one has said why or where they are going to move the 8? Are you bumping it up to the top corner? Are you just nudging it off the rail? That means you're moving it away from a pocket. How is that an advantage?
If you need the two rail shape off the 7- the 8 in the middle would seem to make that more difficult. What kind of shot are you proposing on the 1/8? A draw shot to hit just a piece of the 8? Or an angle from near the bottom rail to catch a bit of the 8 as it goes by?
Where's it going?????????
No one has said why or where they are going to move the 8? Are you bumping it up to the top corner? Are you just nudging it off the rail? That means you're moving it away from a pocket. How is that an advantage?
If you need the two rail shape off the 7- the 8 in the middle would seem to make that more difficult. What kind of shot are you proposing on the 1/8? A draw shot to hit just a piece of the 8? Or an angle from near the bottom rail to catch a bit of the 8 as it goes by?
Where's it going?????????
poolguy123 said:I've read this whole thread and it is now as clear as mud
No one has said why or where they are going to move the 8? Are you bumping it up to the top corner? Are you just nudging it off the rail? That means you're moving it away from a pocket. How is that an advantage?
If you need the two rail shape off the 7- the 8 in the middle would seem to make that more difficult. What kind of shot are you proposing on the 1/8? A draw shot to hit just a piece of the 8? Or an angle from near the bottom rail to catch a bit of the 8 as it goes by?
Where's it going?????????
Sorry,
Throw the balls out and try it. Set up cue ball so that you draw off the one, contacting the top of the 8 ball (1/4 ball hit on the 8). The cue ball floats towards the long rail (well short of the side pocket), the 8 ball comes about a foot off the bottom rail (yes, away from that bottom corner pocket, but off the rail - off the rail seems easier to us straight pool wimps).
poolguy123 said:I've read this whole thread and it is now as clear as mud
No one has said why or where they are going to move the 8? Are you bumping it up to the top corner?
Speaking for myself, Poolguy, I'm bumping it to the top corner. Still, you're basically right, the handling of the position is, more or less, clear as mud. All we have established in this thread is that, even among knowledgeable players, people have different views on assessing the risk vs reward of bumping the eight across the table.
More importantly, we have all enjoyed analyzing a position we found interesting. When I started this thread, I never thought I'd generate this much interest in the position presented, but the thread had a lot of legs because the choice, as we have learned, was arguable.
All we have learned is that we should compare all the available approaches to running the table with care. In the end, each of us will play it as we see it, and for me, that's as it should be.
Thanks for participating and, more importantly, if you have any interestng positions you'd like to share, please do.
Pool guy, you did pick up on something that was missed and I think willie and sjm have pointed out the two options if you decide to move the 8:
a) draw into the top to bring it off the rail slightly, or
b) hit it fuller, and nudge it over the opposite corner pocket.
Personaly I prefer b) like sjm as I think you have more control over the cb this way, also a decent chance of sinking the 8 which would make the run out a little easier. Although minute, there is a small chance of ending up behind the 7 if you play off the top of the 8.
Theese seem to be going well SJM
a) draw into the top to bring it off the rail slightly, or
b) hit it fuller, and nudge it over the opposite corner pocket.
Personaly I prefer b) like sjm as I think you have more control over the cb this way, also a decent chance of sinking the 8 which would make the run out a little easier. Although minute, there is a small chance of ending up behind the 7 if you play off the top of the 8.
Theese seem to be going well SJM
I saw it as a straight forward run out. The key position shot is leaving the right angle on the 6 and make it easy for good position on the 7. Problem with moving the 8 is what happens if you leave it in the same position on the other side? What if you leave it a little off the rail a foot from the pocket on the long rail? You can't tell me getting to the 9 from there is an easier shot.
You consider where the nine is and move the 8 accordingly. If you jaw the 8 that doesn't make position to the 9 easier. The perfect angle is there with decent position on the 7. Having said that the best place for the 8, if you were silly enough to move it would be this area.
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If you hit it to hard or not hard enough in will just add another problem. I think Ginkys thinking is flawed here. If you are sure you can control 8 ball speed and direction, then why can't you play good position on the 7 and draw it a few inches? Hey not to mention your going to have a much longer shot at the two even if it appears t be a duck. Quack Quack Just my opinion of course.
Rod
You consider where the nine is and move the 8 accordingly. If you jaw the 8 that doesn't make position to the 9 easier. The perfect angle is there with decent position on the 7. Having said that the best place for the 8, if you were silly enough to move it would be this area.
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%AN8O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hn6G6%IL7O4%Pg6O7
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If you hit it to hard or not hard enough in will just add another problem. I think Ginkys thinking is flawed here. If you are sure you can control 8 ball speed and direction, then why can't you play good position on the 7 and draw it a few inches? Hey not to mention your going to have a much longer shot at the two even if it appears t be a duck. Quack Quack Just my opinion of course.
Rod
SJM,
These are great. Hard to argue with someone of Ginky's caliber. Being a mediocre B player on my absolute best day I really like to hear what others think after I have decided as to what I would have done. My problem is that getting to the 7 would be no problem but from there is where I can really run into trouble. Keep em coming.
Thanks,
Dave
These are great. Hard to argue with someone of Ginky's caliber. Being a mediocre B player on my absolute best day I really like to hear what others think after I have decided as to what I would have done. My problem is that getting to the 7 would be no problem but from there is where I can really run into trouble. Keep em coming.
Thanks,
Dave
DDKoop said:
Koop,
You have hit the nail on the head. To me it is very interesting what happens when you disagree with the pro's. Over the past 2 1/2 years I have been taking lessons from a top pro. Every time I disagree with him about a shot or position, he will tell me the correct way. If I seem even a little sceptical he will make me shoot the shot 10 times my way, then 10 times his way. So far, the score is My Instructor = 1,000, me = 0. Even if I feel more comfortable shooting my way, I ALWAYS end up doing better his way. I think it is just a coincidence, but just to be safe I ALWAYS take the pro's word for it now.
Williebetmore said:
Hi Willie,
I haven't had the privilege of taking any lessons but I feel that they are where they are for a reason. I enjoy watching pro tournaments as often as I can just for the fact that I see something new every time. I love to try and figure out what they are going to do and then realize I am right about 30% of the time. I guess it's the next best thing to lessons. This past weekend I watched the Joss event in Quincy and there was some unbelievable pool being played. Watching Mike Zuglan, Danny Basavich, Mike Davis, Keith, Santos and others you just can't help but to drop everything and listen when they are talking pool. These are great threads and I hope they continue.
Best Regards,
Dave
Very interesting point willie. I remember as a kid when I went up to the best pool player in my local town (and one of the best in the UK at the time) and asked to play him. I was only 15 at the time and he instsed on playing for cash (I later learnt he thought playing for money was the best way to learn as it hurts more when you lose). I was lucky enough to clear the table on him that day which caught his attention and from that day on he taught me a few tricks. I later played and beat him for much bigger money in front of larger crowds and took over his mantle so to speak. He once told me that the reason he helped teach me how to play was because I listened to what he said (unlike most kids that age). However I will add that before I met this guy I had been a self taught student of the game for about 6 years through home tables and videos. Also, although I listened to everything he said, I didn't COPY EVERYTHING. I took the best parts of all the best players games that I came across. I would say that if you are a player that needs tuition don't fall into the trap of copy every single thing your particular coach does as all Pro's play differently. If you can, try to evaluate shots fors yourself, sometimes a "Pro" will make you play a shot just to introduce a different train of thought, it may not be the shot they would actually play themselves, and it certainly won't be the same shot every other Pro would play.
PS, the guy in question taught his son how to play also and he reached number 8 in the world at snooker.
PS, the guy in question taught his son how to play also and he reached number 8 in the world at snooker.
TheOne said:
The One, this has really been a great thread, but I'm not sure anybody has made a more important point than yours.
The real value of the best tutleage is that it teaches you how to interpret the table for yourself. At the very moment that a student feels compelled to play everything the way his/her mentor would, they stunt the development of their own creative and innovative powers. Though many of its underlying principles are scientific, pool is art, not science, and art is subject to many possible interpretations. It is the interpretation part of the game that caused me to fall in love with it in the first place.
As we have seen over the years, Efren Reyes interprets the table in a way that is both unique and, for the most part, without precedent. Efren's efforts in advancing the interpretation of the art form we call pool is, in many ways, analogous to the efforts of painters like Raphael, DaVinci and Picasso, all of whom broadened our horizons in the appreciation of their art form. Like them, Efren has broadened our horizons. With due respect to Efren, he's not really a magician, just a guy who has brought the interpretation of the art form we call pool to higher heights.
I think that the day I conclude that pool is science and not an ever-evolving art form will probably be the day I give the game up. As an art form, the game of pool absolutely fascinates me.
TheOne said:If you can, try to evaluate shots fors yourself, sometimes a "Pro" will make you play a shot just to introduce a different train of thought, it may not be the shot they would actually play themselves, and it certainly won't be the same shot every other Pro would play.
The One,
Great response, thanks for the input. My instructor will often admit there may be an alternate way to shoot a shot, but says once you decide and get ready to shoot, you must have unshakeable faith that it is the correct shot, and must focus absolutely on making the ball.
He often responds to my questions with, "you know, you could figure this out yourself." I tell him I don't trust myself, and I don't have the time. I want to reap the benefits of his experience (he always tells me, "you will never miss as many balls as I have") - I like to take advantage of that fact.
sjm said:
SJM,
Wow, this is spooky. I just finished a conversation today with a friend about the difference between 14.1 and 9-ball. Our discussion centered on the artistic difference. Nine-ball is more like running an obstacle course. Straight pool is more like painting, making the featureless pack spread apart into recognizable patterns; making the balls bend to your will. There is a beauty and elegance to watching these high level players do it - definitely a creative pursuit. Unfortunately my opponents are oil painting, and I am finger painting.
Williebetmore said:
Willie, you're far to modest. Your posts evidence a strong command and appreication of the game and it's finer points. OK, maybe your not Renoir quite yet, but you're definitely not finger painting. You probably just feel like it because you've been practicing against a bunch of Rembrandt's of late!
There is art to both straight pool and nine ball. The art of straight pool may be a little more obvious, but what I love about nine ball is a) the originality with which advanced billiard theory can be applied to offense, defense, and kicking, and b) the fact that offense and defense can be played simultaneously in a very creative way.