Ok, Educate me here...

Wow, I come back after posting this Friday to find these fine answers. I appreciate the feedback and welcome any other opinions..

oh and qbilder... re; "my game". I have a longer than average bridge, & a long stroke and follow through. I play at a quick/fast rythm/pace, I spin the ball all over the table, I play aggressive and easily be much closer to the first person you described. But, I dont squeeze the hell out of the cue nor hold it like Im holding my ****. lol.
 
Just my opinion, but I believe many of the things qbuilder said are correct. I'm basing this off of my recent stint with a demo cue from Dan DiCola - this cue was made out of ironwood and virgin maple. The shaft had what Dan called a "mix of Balabushka and Blackboar" - for sure not a completely "pro taper", it was pretty stiff. Anyway, I noticed what qbuilder said about the ability to control speed and spin of the cue ball. Seems like he hit the nail on the head and described, almost exactly, how that DiCola cue played.

The only thing different would be that I noticed that I had to be more accurate on the long straight shots with the stiffer shaft. This may have been due to the tip being fairly soft though.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Ok I need some education...

I have no idea what effect various balance points have...
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Generally not much. It can matter for youth or shorter adults, however.

Where you grip the rear of the cue depends on your bridge length and body geometry. A short player might grip the cue near the balance point or even in front of it, and that tends to encourage a very bad habit.

Try this out and you'll see what I mean. Grip the back of your cue in front of the balance point and try an open bridge. If you have a proper rear grip, you won't be able to do it, because the tip will rise into the air. In reality, you'll "make it work." Here's the problem. The compensation for this is to death-grip the rear of the cue, and that's bad news.



I heard someone describing their perfect cue they made a statement "based on my playing style a forward balance cue is a perfect fit" What does that mean? based on your playing style? what does the balance point being forward do?
Click to expand...
It could be gobblygook. But it also could be the player uses a short bridge and isn't so tall. Once again, these put the rear grip dangerously close to the balance point.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Ok I need some education...

I have no idea what effect various balance points have...

I heard someone describing their perfect cue they made a statement "based on my playing style a forward balance cue is a perfect fit" What does that mean? based on your playing style? what does the balance point being forward do? what about back weighted cues? what does that do? I need some help here, can we discuss this?

While we are at it, let dive further into some questions that I think other people might not understand but are afraid to ask 'cause they don't want to seem stupid. I don't mind looking stupid, I'll ask.

Shaft taper... I have no idea what the effect of various types of shaft tapers have and what taper is recommended for my "playing style"... by the way, how do I determine my "style"?
Click to expand...


One late evening, when I was in college, growing up in San Francisco, a buddy and I walked up the stairs to the fabled room on Market Street known as Cochran's. Right after we got inside, a player walked up to us. He was holding a merry widow style cue, with a very dark stain, stainless steel joint, and white joint rings. Without much of an introduction, he just came up to us, held the assembled cue out and said, "I want $50 for this cue. Feel the balance." And then he handed me the cue.

Now, I have no idea who made that particular cue, but to this day, I've only held a few like it. When you turned it horizontally, into shooting position, the cue, I swear, seemed to float. Held vertically, the cue felt like it weighed a good 20oz.

More recently, I had a similar experience when a friend was considering a cue purchase. He had narrowed it down to a Lambros and another famous cue maker's cue. He brought both cues over to me and asked me, "Which one do you think I should buy?" There were no balls available so I just took the first cue he handed me and took a few practice strokes.

Then he handed me the Lambros.

Without even taking a practice stroke, I handed back to him and said, "This one."

So what does all that mean? I dunno. But I think it has to do with what feels right and good in your hands. What makes you feel like a killer when you get into shooting position. Maybe it just has to do with what you grow up playing with.

But I also think that cues with different balance points can induce you to set up differently. Because of variations in weight distribution, you may end up holding the cue a little more forward or back, just because that feels more comfortable and natural. From there, a whole cascade of small, almost imperceptible, changes can happen in how you move your feet, where and when you establish contact with the cue shaft, how level you set up, and how high or low your head ends up.

Soooo, maybe, "balance" is just one of those almost intangible unknowable things that make you play better with one cue, instead of another.

Then again, maybe not :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa said:
...
Now, I have no idea who made that particular cue, but to this day, I've only held a few like it. When you turned it horizontally, into shooting position, the cue, I swear, seemed to float. Held vertically, the cue felt like it weighed a good 20oz.
...
Click to expand...

Not to keep bringing my DiCola cue into this but that exact thing happened with the cue he let me use. When I screwed the cue together I thought "Wow, way too heavy", when I got down to shoot a ball though it felt like the perfect weight.
 
jasonlaus said:
I will start with your statement about stiff vs flimsy shafts. First off a flimsier SHAFT will DEFLECT, NOT THE CUEBALL. A STIFFER SHAFT will DEFLECT THE CUEBALL RESULTING IN SQUIRT, which is the opposite of your statement.
Be back later if I need to.
Click to expand...

All I hear is crickets?????????;)
 
jasonlaus said:
I will start with your statement about stiff vs flimsy shafts. First off a flimsier SHAFT will DEFLECT, NOT THE CUEBALL. A STIFFER SHAFT will DEFLECT THE CUEBALL RESULTING IN SQUIRT, which is the opposite of your statement.
Be back later if I need to.
Click to expand...

didn't dr. dave do tests that proved that it had no effect? regardless, even if there was some slight correlation, end mass has much more to do with it than the whole shaft being flimsier or stiffer.
 
I was thinking about the flimsier vs stiffer shaft stuff on the way to work today. With a flimsier shaft the shaft seems like it would bend out of the way of the cue ball, but once it bends it would want to correct itself. During the correction, it would be placing sideways force on the cue ball, causing squirt. So with the flimsier shaft you have force going forward - due to the stroke. And force going sideways - due to the shaft trying to straighten out.

I would think this would negate all the talk about how simply a flimsier shaft produces less squirt. I think the less squirt has more to do with tip end mass. For example, the Predator and OB shafts are laminated which would make them LESS flimsy. Yet they still produce less deflection due to tip end mass and the other engineering in the shaft.
 
md5key said:
I was thinking about the flimsier vs stiffer shaft stuff on the way to work today. With a flimsier shaft the shaft seems like it would bend out of the way of the cue ball, but once it bends it would want to correct itself. During the correction, it would be placing sideways force on the cue ball, causing squirt. So with the flimsier shaft you have force going forward - due to the stroke. And force going sideways - due to the shaft trying to straighten out.[...]
Click to expand...

This restoring force is there for all shafts. It's just not a major component of the force that causes squirt. The tip is in contact with the ball for a millisecond or two. During this time the tip moves sideways only a mm or two (couple dime thicknesses). For this small amount of bending the difference in restoring force between stiff and whippy shafts is not nearly as noticeable as it will be 10 or 15 ms later, when the shafts are bent more and the cueball is half a diamond away.

If you bounce a tennis ball off the end of a diving board, the height of the bounce will be determined less by the location of the fulcrum and more by the mass near the end of the board. If it's hollow--lousy bounce. If it's a solid core--big bounce.
 
jasonlaus:
I will start with your statement about stiff vs flimsy shafts. First off a flimsier SHAFT will DEFLECT, NOT THE CUEBALL. A STIFFER SHAFT will DEFLECT THE CUEBALL RESULTING IN SQUIRT, which is the opposite of your statement.
Click to expand...
All I hear is crickets?????????
Click to expand...

Well, no wonder you're having trouble thinking.

Your statements above are incorrect. A stiffer shaft does not result in more squirt than a "flimsier" one. This has been shown by multiple experiments. The only thing that seems to matter much to squirt is "end mass" (the amount of weight in the first few inches of the shaft).

pj
chgo
 
New concept

Where a stick balances on your finger means nothing.

What is important is if you hold a cue with your back hand with a "normal"
stroke grip and instead of resting the tip on your bridge hand you set it on a digital scale. You'll find most cues today have at least 12 ounces of forward or "downward weight" at the tip.

A cueball weighs approx 6 1/4 ounces and is a curved surface. So if you use an open bridge with a "level stroke". The laws of physics show the tip will skip upward during an OPEN BRIDGE LEVEL TOPSPIN SHOT.

The forward or downward weight helps to hold the tip on the cueball longer
giving better control and more english yes other factors come into play with this also ...but he asked about cue balance.

If you use a closed bridge for ALL your shots balance is not as critical because your bridge hand helps control this "skipping action".

If you designed cues for specific shots like golf clubs ....you could have an almost neutral balanced cue ever so slightly forward balanced for Middle left, Middle, Middle right, Low Left Low, Low right because no matter what type of bridge you used your front hand helps to controls the cue.

Since todays cues are designed for ALL types of shots.. your open bridge shots using Top left, Top, Top Right require a forward weight. Since this forward weight doesn't effect the middle and low englishes that is what we have for almost all cues made today.

The right question is what is the right amount of forward weight needed in a cue for an open bridge level topspin shot.


Remember if you lose your left arm your right would be left
 
Rak9up said:
Where a stick balances on your finger means nothing.

What is important is if you hold a cue with your back hand with a "normal"
stroke grip and instead of resting the tip on your bridge hand you set it on a digital scale. You'll find most cues today have at least 12 ounces of forward or "downward weight" at the tip.

A cueball weighs approx 6 1/4 ounces and is a curved surface. So if you use an open bridge with a "level stroke". The laws of physics show the tip will skip upward during an OPEN BRIDGE LEVEL TOPSPIN SHOT.
Click to expand...

So far, so good.

The forward or downward weight helps to hold the tip on the cueball longer giving better control and more english
Click to expand...

Bzzzt! Sorry, this is wrong. The small amount of additional "tip weight" you might get with a forward balanced cue can't help "hold the tip on the cueball longer" or "give better control and more english".


If you use a closed bridge for ALL your shots balance is not as critical because your bridge hand helps control this "skipping action".
Click to expand...

Bzzzt! Sorry, this is wrong too. Balance isn't a factor in "controlling skipping action" at all, with an open or a closed bridge. In fact, there's no more "skipping action" with an open bridge than with a closed one; it just seems like it because with a closed bridge the tip can't fly up after contact with the CB. During contact with the CB nothing is different.

... your open bridge shots using Top left, Top, Top Right require a forward weight.
Click to expand...

Bzzzt! Still wrong.

The right question is what is the right amount of forward weight needed in a cue for an open bridge level topspin shot.
Click to expand...

Bzzzt! Well, you get my drift by now...

Remember if you lose your left arm your right would be left
Click to expand...

Sounds right to me. :)

pj
chgo
 
Reply to Patrick

The tip flying up after the cuball contact is the "skipping action" I'm talking about if your tip flys out of your open bridge and strikes another ball a foul is still a foul...I'm speaking of controling the cue throughout the entire shot and what type of balance is needed to help minimize this.

You need to review your physics its not just an 18 ounce cue moving forward at the moment of impact.... but downward forces as well... we don't live in a vaccum and yes gravity does work.


What you mean there's more issues to consider than just "cueball deflection" say it isn't so....Guess I'll never work for OB or Predator
I will try and cope with it.
 
i, too, wanna be educated on this matter, but still confused after reading it all.

please somebody who knows what theyre talking about explain to the rest of us..
balance point in a cue, determines where you should grip, and how long your bridge should be? or the longer the bridge the farther back on the cue i need to hold, and the balance point wont matter? or if i just want to, really really want to, hold my cue from the very end, at all times(%95), thus having a longer bridge, being tall and having long arms and all, i need a rear balanced cue? the dude is confused.
does anybody have a rear balanced cue? can i try it? how can i change the balance point on my cue? what effect should i expect? where can i try a rear balanced cue? why is there no wrap at the butt end on majority of the cues so i can just hold from there and not feel the wrap i paid $300for is useless? should i get a poison cue with the extended wrap? does the extended wrap mean that cue is rear balanced?

whew.:sorry:
 
turbo said:
i, too, wanna be educated on this matter, but still confused after reading it all.

please somebody who knows what theyre talking about explain to the rest of us..
balance point in a cue, determines where you should grip, and how long your bridge should be? or the longer the bridge the farther back on the cue i need to hold, and the balance point wont matter? or if i just want to, really really want to, hold my cue from the very end, at all times(%95), thus having a longer bridge, being tall and having long arms and all, i need a rear balanced cue? the dude is confused.
does anybody have a rear balanced cue? can i try it? how can i change the balance point on my cue? what effect should i expect? where can i try a rear balanced cue? why is there no wrap at the butt end on majority of the cues so i can just hold from there and not feel the wrap i paid $300for is useless? should i get a poison cue with the extended wrap? does the extended wrap mean that cue is rear balanced?

whew.:sorry:
Click to expand...


SLOW DOWN BUDDY... Your gonna hurt yourself.
 
I was doing some research on the shaft taper thing....

I found a cue shaft maker (schuler) that will engineer any taper you want and he classifies them by hit type...

here's a sampling...

600_shafts.jpg



Custom Shaft Selections

Shaft Taper/Hit Class/Recommended game

Abruzzo/Very Soft/Pocket Billiards
Super X/Soft/Pocket Billiards
Super Pro/Medium-soft/Pocket Billiards
JJ Pro/Medium-soft/Pocket Billiards
Schuler Pro/Firm/Pocket Billiards
American/Very firm/Pocket Billiards/Billiards
Gilbert/Stiff/Billiards
Martin Horn/Medium-stiff/Billiards
Asian/Stiff /Billiards
Straight Billiard/Stiff/StraightBilliards
European/Very-stiff/Billiards
Super Constant/Very Stiff/Billiards
Snooker/UK/ Very firm/ Stiff /Snooker
Snooker/ US /Soft/ medium soft /Snooker
Masse/Extremely-stiff /Masse

Source
 
Rak9up said:
The tip flying up after the cuball contact is the "skipping action" I'm talking about if your tip flys out of your open bridge and strikes another ball a foul is still a foul...I'm speaking of controling the cue throughout the entire shot and what type of balance is needed to help minimize this.
Click to expand...

So you didn't really mean it when you said this?

"The forward or downward weight helps to hold the tip on the cueball longer giving better control and more english"
...its not just an 18 ounce cue moving forward at the moment of impact.... but downward forces as well... we don't live in a vaccum and yes gravity does work.
Click to expand...

No, gravity doesn't work, at least not on tip/CB interaction. For that it is "just an 18 ounce cue moving forward".

You need to review your physics
Click to expand...

Sounds like I need to review your physics.

...Guess I'll never work for OB or Predator.
Click to expand...

Their loss, I'm sure.

pj
chgo
 
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