OK, I have a question!

[Black Cat 5791]

I mean this in all seriousness, what is the reason that most bar room players prefer bar rules vs BIH Rules? And, ironically I'm not talking about your typical bangers but people who actually can play abit still prefer Call Shot, and Pocket, ball behind the head string etc...

I ask this because as of late I've been going to the local hole in the wall vs my regular poolhall, and beating most if not all of the people that I do match up with. These guy's actually do play APA Leauge 1 or 2 nights a week, but when not playing on a League Night they revert back to wanting to play Bar Rules. For the life of me I can't figure out why.

What point or fact am I missing?

Black Cat

 

[MitchAlsup]

A) many of use do not; we actually prefer to play tournement rules

B) when the niéve opponents want to play bar rules, we can oblige.

C) when the better opponents show up; we can play the more real game.

 

[Chopdoc]

Bar rules fit with the masses.


When somebody shows up that prefers "tournament rules" then I'll play that.

I play almost exclusively in a bar these days and it really does not resemble the pool I used to play at all. IMHO it does not detract at all from the enjoyment for me. I'm just glad to be hitting some balls.

What does bother me is when somebody feels they are playing "better" pool because they are playing by "better" rules. There was a time when I felt that way actually...but I got over myself.



.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

If you really want to know why they prefer this why don't you ask them next time you are there?

I mean this in all seriousness, what is the reason that most bar room players prefer bar rules vs BIH Rules? And, ironically I'm not talking about your typical bangers but people who actually can play abit still prefer Call Shot, and Pocket, ball behind the head string etc...

I ask this because as of late I've been going to the local hole in the wall vs my regular poolhall, and beating most if not all of the people that I do match up with. These guy's actually do play APA Leauge 1 or 2 nights a week, but when not playing on a League Night they revert back to wanting to play Bar Rules. For the life of me I can't figure out why.

What point or fact am I missing?

Black Cat

 

[Bona]

TLR (Not a rant but not very interesting)

Interesting topic for me. I only recently started playing again after many years and am playing in a league for the first time in my life. So the "new", if they are new, rules confounded me and I am not sure I even understand them all yet.

The biggest change for me is ball in hand vs ball in kitchen after a scratch/foul. This makes a scratch or foul a much more significant error because in 8 ball or nine ball it seems like pretty much giving up the game.

Also the difference between BCA and APA in who racks. It makes more sense for me that players rack for themselves, leads to peace, harmony, and tighter racks imo.

btw, I am not complaining about any of the rules, I am just a bit confused about them. I had played nine ball a little when I was younger but in those days we just played a buck or two on the nine ball and sometimes half that for the 5 ball. lol at myself now because I haven't even learned how to keep the scores in APA nine ball, it's on me to learn I guess.

Marking the pocket on the 8 ball in APA vs just calling it makes sense to me, I just have to remember to do it :grin-square: It seems to me it would be better to use the same rules in all leagues but of course there will probably always be local differences in "bar room" or pool room rules. The BCA here plays call pocket if not obvious on all shots while the APA only requires the 8 ball be marked. I am not really sure those differences are nationally uniform but I guess they may be.

Another one, I touched an object ball with my hand trying to bridge and assumed it was a foul, but it wasn't. They told me to replace the ball in its original spot and proceed. It seems like that was always a foul when I used to play.

I recall 8 ball used to be played (sometimes) by requiring the one and fifteen be pocketed in opposite side pockets. Is that still done anywhere?

I have only been playing in the leagues and practicing at home so am not hanging out at pool rooms to even know what rules are used informally here. I may recognize those from my "old days" I don't know. If I recall correctly we used to spot balls that were not legally pocketed rather than leaving them down but I guess the coin operated tables forced that difference.

LOL I guess "it is what it is" is the universal rule, so I do run on about nothing here, sorry. TLR

 

[JAMSGOLF]

Here's what I've seen time and time again in this area from the "bar players"...

Player "A" runs his balls out with the exception of leaving the 8-ball in the kitchen...Player "B" has 5 to 7 balls still on the table...Player "B" purposely scratches immediately and does so hoping Player "A" can't make contact with the 8-ball (seeing as they have to do a kick shot through traffic) thus losing the game...

I preferred ball-in-hand because it made the games go quicker...both from a player's and a table owner's perspective. :wink:

 

[sk8ordie]

Are you saying whenever you go out to play for fun or for money, you still play APA slop rules? I play APA, BCA and when we practice before/during APA starts or when out just playing, we play BCA, VNEA rules., no slop, call pocket, BIN. If I run into a non-league/old school player, I'll go back to the way I grew up playing, call everything and behind the line. I'll play by any rule as long as I know what they are before I start. If I don't like their rules, I don't play. Heck, sometimes when I own the table for awhile, I switch rules back and forth between racks depending on who is racking and what they want to play. :wink:

 

[sk8ordie]

Here's what I've seen time and time again in this area from the "bar players"...

Player "A" runs his balls out with the exception of leaving the 8-ball in the kitchen...Player "B" has 5 to 7 balls still on the table...Player "B" purposely scratches immediately and does so hoping Player "A" can't make contact with the 8-ball (seeing as they have to do a kick shot through traffic) thus losing the game...

I preferred ball-in-hand because it made the games go quicker...both from a player's and a table owner's perspective. :wink:

People get hurt for doing things like that where I'm from, lol.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Interesting replies so far, however I still don't quite have the answer I'm lookin for. Most of the people actually loathe BIH rules as if it's not real pool. It bugs me that they want you to call every little nuance of the shot,

ie: if another ball is in the pocket for instance you have to call the OB off the extra ball if not it has to play clean.

You have to call a Bank not just the Pocket even though it's obviously a Bank.

You a to call the actual Kick not just the OB in the Pocket even though your obviously Kicking the CB.

You have to call the CB rail first even though that's the only way to get to the OB.

You can reposition the CB or opponents Balls without it being a penalty.

I don't see the advantage, to playing this way. In the last few weeks I've lost maybe 6 - 10 games, I can't even begin to say the amount won. I've met some interest people along the way, but can't understand the rational behind the rules and why people play this way, when at least in my opinion there is no advantage.

Let's keep the feedback coming.

Black Cat

 

[JAMSGOLF]

What you're describing is "call-shot"...in my opinion it is much harder than "call-pocket"...any little variation that is not called is a foul...

I believe it is because the bar players are counting on their opponent's inability to predict every nuance that is going to happen, which will create a foul thus their opponent losing their turn. Essentially they're playing the odds...

They don't like ball in hand because it drastically changes the odds into the other person's favor...if the other person's the one with the BIH...

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Are you saying whenever you go out to play for fun or for money, you still play APA slop rules? I play APA, BCA and when we practice before/during APA starts or when out just playing, we play BCA, VNEA rules., no slop, call pocket, BIN. If I run into a non-league/old school player, I'll go back to the way I grew up playing, call everything and behind the line. I'll play by any rule as long as I know what they are before I start. If I don't like their rules, I don't play. Heck, sometimes when I own the table for awhile, I switch rules back and forth between racks depending on who is racking and what they want to play. :wink:

I play the same way you do, call pocket BIH alway's any time I play no Slop. When I do go someplace unusual I normally play by whatever rules they want to play by. I just don't understand the mentality or rational behind the Bar rules. I have found that at higher S/L's most of the slop is removed from the game anyway, I'm not saying it dosen't happen but when it's done you accept it and keep rolling, I'm speaking on league night.

Black Cat

 

[JAMSGOLF]

People get hurt for doing things like that where I'm from, lol.

I understand what you're saying...but by the rules stated it's "fair" to do...thus you can't get pissed about it happening...well, you can get pissed, but it's still a legitimate win...

That's why I always say if it's behind the head-string on a scratch, no contact with the 8-ball doesn't result in a loss of the game. If they don't like my "addendum" to the rule, I don't play them... :wink: Quick and easy fix so no one gets "hurt"... :wink:

 

[Black Cat 5791]

What you're describing is "call-shot"...in my opinion it is much harder than "call-pocket"...any little variation that is not called is a foul...

I believe it is because the bar players are counting on their opponent's inability to predict every nuance that is going to happen, which will create a foul thus their opponent losing their turn. Essentially they're playing the odds...

They don't like ball in hand because it drastically changes the odds into the other person's favor...if the other person's the one with the BIH...

Well actually your correct, the folks aroung here want it both way's Call Shot, and Call Pocket. It just bugs me, if I can do a length of table up and back bank to the corner and not call it off the ball sitting in the pocket, for them to expect it clean is beyound reason to me the other ball is in the pocket, if you call it off the other ball and OB rattles and sit's up you lose you turn anyway. You get my point.

Black Cat

 

[JAMSGOLF]

Well actually your correct, the folks aroung here want it both way's Call Shot, and Call Pocket. It just bugs me, if I can do a length of table up and back bank to the corner and not call it off the ball sitting in the pocket, for them to expect it clean is beyound reason to me the other ball is in the pocket, if you call it off the other ball and OB rattles and sit's up you lose you turn anyway. You get my point.

Black Cat

Yep...I definitely get your point! :wink:

Here's the way I look at my game...I'm a better than having to rely on a "slop counts" game...I'm not so perfect as to be able to account for every little subtlety that is reliant on a "call-shot" game...so my game falls into the "call-pocket" category...

The reason I don't like "call-shot": If you call the 7-ball in the corner pocket, and you miss the spot on the 7 by a fraction of a millimeter causing the 7-ball to knick the side rail an inch and a half before the pocket, it doesn't count...

I'm not that freakin' good to account for something THAT minute!

 

[Shaky1]

Yep...I definitely get your point! :wink:

Here's the way I look at my game...I'm a better than having to rely on a "slop counts" game...I'm not so perfect as to be able to account for every little subtlety that is reliant on a "call-shot" game...so my game falls into the "call-pocket" category...

The reason I don't like "call-shot": If you call the 7-ball in the corner pocket, and you miss the spot on the 7 by a fraction of a millimeter causing the 7-ball to knick the side rail an inch and a half before the pocket, it doesn't count...

I'm not that freakin' good to account for something THAT minute!

Where I usually play, you would still be shooting. Even with call the shot.
As long as it does not hit another ball on the way in, it's good. If it just rubs a cushon it doesn't matter.
Usually though, I'll play by whatever rules everyone else is playing by.
I do prefer ball in hand though.

 

[sk8ordie]

I play the same way you do, call pocket BIH alway's any time I play no Slop. When I do go someplace unusual I normally play by whatever rules they want to play by. I just don't understand the mentality or rational behind the Bar rules. I have found that at higher S/L's most of the slop is removed from the game anyway, I'm not saying it dosen't happen but when it's done you accept it and keep rolling, I'm speaking on league night.

Black Cat

Oh, I gotcha. I'm from PG County Maryland and when I moved down south years ago, I've never had to call so much in my life. Some people consider it being a bank/kick if you nipple/wobble the ball in a pocket and gawd forbid if you play a defensive shot . Some say its a lose of game if you don't hit the 8ball when your on the 8, Spanish folks will only play last pocket 8 ball. I've played by these rules my whole life, sharpens your game a bit but, I prefer Bca style rules when playing, just call a non-obvious shot, bin. I swear there's like 10 different unwritten rules of the game of pool. Just beat them at their own game.

 

[PaulieB]

I always thought the reason for all the extra rules was because you were paying per game and these tended to extend the game ... or at least have more innings at the table for each person so you "get your quarter's worth".

The local bar I go to almost always is bank the 8 or last pocket 8, so that if your opponent has a good run, you have a chance to get back to the table if they miss their bank or miss their positioning on the 8 to their last pocket.

 

[WoodyJ]

I always thought the reason for all the extra rules was because you were paying per game and these tended to extend the game ... or at least have more innings at the table for each person so you "get your quarter's worth".

The local bar I go to almost always is bank the 8 or last pocket 8, so that if your opponent has a good run, you have a chance to get back to the table if they miss their bank or miss their positioning on the 8 to their last pocket.

The above pretty much sums it up for the local bar around here.

Additionally, defensive shots (i.e., safeties) are considered chicken$hit pool and an obvious moral deficiency and extreme lack of character on your part. Actually kinda ironic since the unspoken concept is to maximize the use of each quarter and not have quick games.

But, offense rules and you are not a "manly man" unless you try to make something (even if insanely impossible) on every shot. And, when you do call and make a miracle shot you are usually greeted with a response such as, "Wasn't it much more satisfying to have made such a great shot (and still lose the game) than playing that chicken$hit stuff you prefer to do?"

 

[Donny Lutz]

Down South

Oh, I gotcha. I'm from PG County Maryland and when I moved down south years ago, I've never had to call so much in my life. Some people consider it being a bank/kick if you nipple/wobble the ball in a pocket and gawd forbid if you play a defensive shot . Some say its a lose of game if you don't hit the 8ball when your on the 8, Spanish folks will only play last pocket 8 ball. I've played by these rules my whole life, sharpens your game a bit but, I prefer Bca style rules when playing, just call a non-obvious shot, bin. I swear there's like 10 different unwritten rules of the game of pool. Just beat them at their own game.

I also moved from PG county in Maryland to the South (FL). I've also played in the majority of other states. Generally speaking, pool "up north" has always been "ahead" of the game in the South.
Probably because league play began in the north, and because indoor winter sports are so much more popular up there than in the south - more people play and more people play seriously.

Granted, this is changing. Forty years ago, there were far fewer players in Florida than today. (I base this on my visits in the '70s, and talking to the old farts.) Now there are MANY top players moving to Florida every year, for the climate and the action. But they still insist on 1950s bar rules in most every small town.

So, regarding your question, I think that (1) people are resistant to change and (2) they think that "their rules", no matter what they are, give them an advantage.

But it also clearly depends on what part of the country you're in.

 

[Jdale]

I understand what you're saying...but by the rules stated it's "fair" to do...thus you can't get pissed about it happening...well, you can get pissed, but it's still a legitimate win...

That's why I always say if it's behind the head-string on a scratch, no contact with the 8-ball doesn't result in a loss of the game. If they don't like my "addendum" to the rule, I don't play them... :wink: Quick and easy fix so no one gets "hurt"... :wink:

"no contact with the 8-ball results in a loss of the game" better know as a hardeight rule. I've played in hundreds of bars and only encounted the hardeight rule in one of them. The players there didn't even try to make their balls, they just surrounded the 8 with their balls while knocking your balls in the hole at the same time. Hardeight is about as goofy as it gets.