OK lets start some trouble LOL (Diamond System)

gerard soriano

HIGH RUN STILL TO COME !
Silver Member
So I just had a thought, while giving a lesson today on kicking, someone said to me, He was told the XYZ 20+40 system is better. I thought to myself if the inventers of this Great Wonderful game wanted us to use # they would have put them on the table instead of Diamonds IMHO I also know there is more than one way to skin a (Left blank in fear of peta)
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you put numbers on the rail cap so they don't need to be memorized, there'd be so many you play hell trying to tell which number is correct for the shot, much less finding where the diamond is located.
I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't over a thousand numbering systems.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you put numbers on the rail cap so they don't need to be memorized, there'd be so many you play hell trying to tell which number is correct for the shot, much less finding where the diamond is located.
I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't over a thousand numbering systems.

Many of them outlined in Walt Harris' four "Billiard Atlas" volumes.

Lou Figueroa
make your
head spin
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Systems are great to get you close. But they only get you close. Every table will play differently and that final 10% or so is feel. There's also ways to strike a ball to "help" it into a pocket. Speed and spin and who knows what else.

If you practice these systems eventually you can do them by feel, it's not really about "math" but angles.

 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Billiards as it should be played by Willie Hoppe is my only source for diamond systems. It's sitting on my coffee table within easy reach. My favorite reference book.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Billiards as it should be played by Willie Hoppe is my only source for diamond systems. It's sitting on my coffee table within easy reach. My favorite reference book.
I have that. I think I based most of the rock on those diagrams, not the system. Those angles will always get you position.
 

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
Different students.. different personality... different thought process....some people are book smart and street dumb...some can't pass a test but are very smart....

As an instructor...you need to adapt to the student ...some will learn from parallel lines..some will learn from numbers...as an instructor you need to be able to teach both..

That separates good instructors from good players that are only able to teach cookie cutter style of the way they play...
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Systems are great to get you close. But they only get you close. Every table will play differently and that final 10% or so is feel. There's also ways to strike a ball to "help" it into a pocket. Speed and spin and who knows what else.

If you practice these systems eventually you can do them by feel, it's not really about "math" but angles.

This right here. bank systems and kick systems made me better at both but they still require a bit of feel and experience. After you work on them enough you will rarely need them while playing . You’ll just know. Plus your right..no table plays perfect And adjustments have to of course be made for speed and spin but they are a great starter point.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Different students.. different personality... different thought process....some people are book smart and street dumb...some can't pass a test but are very smart....

As an instructor...you need to adapt to the student ...some will learn from parallel lines..some will learn from numbers...as an instructor you need to be able to teach both..
Parallel lines, numbers, actual visuals, are different ways of teaching, but there's a new buzz word being thrown around which supersedes all the rest. It can be found daily in AZB throughout the main forum and especially in the aiming forum. Yet it can't be pinpointed, described, categorized, defined, taught, shared, or seen.

Back in 2005 the BCA stated there were approximately 36,000,000 people in the world playing pocket billiards, pool.
https://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=42

What is this magic word that means so much to the development and skill level of a player in pool? FEEL!

I'm not talking about "FEEL" as far as "TOUCH" for the stroke and CB speed or the amount of spin for English, draw, or run.
It has to do with linking the CB and OB together to create an impact sending the OB into a pocket which is all done visually.
There is in fact a specific word for the process, but it's a dirty word here and only here on AZB that can't be said.

The title of this thread is, "OK, lets start some trouble." :devilish:
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
What is this magic word that means so much to the development and skill level of a player in pool? FEEL!
Feel is about speed control more than aiming. Every see someone miss a ball and say they hit it too hard or too soft? That's feel. You have to combine it with the golden calf aiming system ;) If you want to get mathematical or scientific about it we could talk about collision induced throw, cling, swerve, deflection, gearing, etc. An aiming system is only one part of the equation, you still have to account for CB effects on the OB and such. Some systems admittedly have things built in to deal with CIT and such but it's being dealt with. How you purposely put your head "poke your head out" to reduce optical illusions is huge. You gotta see it right but you also have to hit it right. If you get good at chopping corners off of rectangles and visualizing CB paths it doesn't matter how you visualize them. It's fairly easy to map rebound angles and such on a rectangle. It's just 2 squares. Systems can give you a good starting point but I'm gonna say if you play your mentor and you both use the exact same system and he destroys you, he has better feel or better touch. Feel isn't everything but it gets you the final 10% towards a perfect hit. Sometimes feel is done by our subconscious. Muscle memory and our subconscious will win games if we just get out of the way and let it work. This is not to say you don't have to practice to get to that point. Even with the holy grail aiming system, if you don't put in the practice you will never improve. :)

This thread is about the diamond system. If you have the book "Center Pocket Music" by Stan Shuffett there are examples of banks spread throughout, but on page 237 has good info and on page 351 there is a section called "Advanced CTE Banking." You might want to look at it, it has a lot of good info there. There is also a wonderful chart on page 369 that can help people visualize what's going on. Page 377 addresses kicking but it seems basically you sight center ball and don't step it. I've never had problems with kicks, just hit a high ball and hit the OB where you want.
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
You have to learn what it is before you can learn what it feels like.
Feel isn't a part of it. It's only the VISUAL in what is SEEN. Very much more like below:
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Feel is about speed control more than aiming. Every see someone miss a ball and say they hit it too hard or too soft? That's feel. You have to combine it with the golden calf aiming system.
I think it also has to do with how tightly/lightly the cue is gripped as well as length of stroke or other manipulations. (Bhe)
If you want to get mathematical or scientific about it we could talk about collision induced throw, cling, swerve, deflection, gearing, etc. An aiming system is only one part of the equation, you still have to account for CB effects on the OB and such. Some systems admittedly have things built in to deal with CIT and such but it's being dealt with.
Agreed. Most of the "hazards" you have listed above are many times overused or unnecessary by below pro level players.
How you purposely put your head "poke your head out" to reduce optical illusions is huge. You gotta see it right but you also have to hit it right.
BINGO! This is really HUGE! A "noser" directly over the cue for any and all shots will NOT understand what you just posted nor see it, nor think it's the better way to play and see shots. They're stuck in the one position unable to experience a "parallax view".
If you get good at chopping corners off of rectangles and visualizing CB paths it doesn't matter how you visualize them. It's fairly easy to map rebound angles and such on a rectangle. It's just 2 squares. Systems can give you a good starting point but I'm gonna say if you play your mentor and you both use the exact same system and he destroys you, he has better feel or better touch. Feel isn't everything but it gets you the final 10% towards a perfect hit. Sometimes feel is done by our subconscious. Muscle memory and our subconscious will win games if we just get out of the way and let it work. This is not to say you don't have to practice to get to that point. Even with the holy grail aiming system, if you don't put in the practice you will never improve. :)
boogieman, you're growing on me, big time.
This thread is about the diamond system. If you have the book "Center Pocket Music" by Stan Shuffett there are examples of banks spread throughout, but on page 237 has good info and on page 351 there is a section called "Advanced CTE Banking." You might want to look at it, it has a lot of good info there. There is also a wonderful chart on page 369 that can help people visualize what's going on. Page 377 addresses kicking but it seems basically you sight center ball and don't step it. I've never had problems with kicks, just hit a high ball and hit the OB where you want.
I'm impressed...VERY impressed! (an unrelated sidenote... I'm quite partial to the info on pages 1 & 2) :cool:
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In "McGoorty" there is this tale about Hoppe, his book, and diamond systems:

"In Hoppe's book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to the Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the systems. He looked up at me and said, 'You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.'

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me that book and say, 'Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.'

'My boy,' I say, 'it can't be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.'

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Scaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn't need to use a system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue a little and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? F**k the system."

Lou Figueroa
 
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