One guy uses the magic rack - Everyone else the wooden rack

[BeiberLvr]

Mebbe.

My thoughts on it are this. The guys runs out good. So do I.

He also does not play all that well post break when he does not get an open shot on the 1 with moderately easy position. He doesn't have a great break without the magic rack. Mine is much better.

Therefore....

By being forced to use the magic rack, my better break is negated, because the wing ball goes 90% of the time. He'll literally get out off the break almost every time.

This also negates any post-break play where decision making is involved.

No offense, but anyone who doesn't see problems with the magic rack negating skill either doesn't play good enough players, or aren't good enough themselves for it to make a difference.. :-D

Short Bus Russ

But if your break is that much better with a normal rack, then it should still be better using the magic rack. Yes, it makes it easier to make balls on the break, but the better breaker still has an advantage (although maybe not as big).

Your logic is flawed unless he broke and ran the set out on you which he otherwise wouldn't have done using a normal rack.

Whether or not you agree, the fact you went into "I don't give a F mode" does show you let your mental game get away from you. Not really a knock on your game as I'm sure a lot of us (especially me) have let way more trivial things get into our heads while playing.

 

[cuesblues]

Is it really that difficult to agree on which rack to use in a weekend handicapped bar box tournament?

 

[Island Drive]

For those that watched the match/bar table 8 ball between SVB and Corey, they used it and also used the normal triangular rack, neither had and issue.

 

[Hungarian]

I'm a welder. Point is a 23 player event isn't anything special and doesn't need a TD and a racking directive. Don't be so fragile.

Comes accross pretty arrogantly. I've known a few "journeymen electrician" who play pretty well, and are smart enough to run a good tourney. Can you believe that! I know it's such a shock.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

For those that watched the match/bar table 8 ball between SVB and Corey, they used it and also used the normal triangular rack, neither had and issue.

Absolutely, 100% irrelevant. Bar box 8 ball is a completely different game. At even a 2nd/3rd tier level, the players make a ball on the break a large percentage of the time, using magic rack, wooden rack doesn't really matter. And you get random layouts. At that point, it becomes about who runs the balls better.

Magic rack 9 ball is a completely broken game. ESPECIALLY on a barbox, but I saw the worst finals I ever saw between Dan Louie and one of the better young Canadian players. It was on a 9 footer, and booth were SUPER soft-breaking and letting the 1 ball trickle to the rail, and stopping the CB on impact with the rack for a cut shut on the 1 up in the far corner.

It was an embarrassing match to watch, much like the last few national barbox 9-ball events played with the magic rack. The non magic rack tourneys on Valleys are much more exciting, and generally get more stream viewership...

Short Bus Russ

 

[Icon of Sin]

What is your problem with the magic rack?
If you both use the same rack, there is no advantages either way...
The magic rack ensures that the balls are touching, how is that a bad thing?

Great for practice as you dont have to monkey around with the rack, but knowing how to rack the balls these days and checking the rack to make sure it's to your liking is just as much a part of the game as shooting the balls in.

I use one for practice at home juse to make racking quicker... but I dont believe it should be used in competition unless both players agree to use it... if at all... Players need to learn to rack properly and learn how to check the rack as well.

 

[hang-the-9]

For those that watched the match/bar table 8 ball between SVB and Corey, they used it and also used the normal triangular rack, neither had and issue.

Yes but what if one did? That is the point of the post.

If one player objects to someone using a different rack that is what on the table, is it OK for someone to overrule them?

The template racks are a totally different rack than the regular triangles, which is the big issue here. If we had a crappy wooden rack or cheap plastic rack and someone went to another table to get a better rack or had a Delta 13 on them or something, that is still a standard rack.

Once you stick a Magic Rack down, how the rack breaks changes totally. It's not between one brand of triangle rack vs another or even one template rack vs another, it's like between playing tennis on grass or on clay, you get totally different game play when you go from a regular rack to the Magic Rack.

While everyone will agree the Magic Rack will give you a good rack, that is not the issue. Someone did not agree during a match to use a different rack, and despite that, the other player was allowed to.

Every time I was in a tournament, the rule was "both players have to agree to the rack used, or the one at the table is to be used". I think that is the only correct call to make in the situation.

Every other situation does not apply, the CSI tournament specifically promote using the Magic Rack, any examples with that is moot, any other match where they use different racks, I will guarantee both players agreed to that, so that is moot.

Right now the only concrete thing I can see is that everyone that ran into this at a turnament has said that BOTH players had to agree to what rack would be used or it can't be used, if it's not what the tournament or room provided.

Does anyone that thinks anyone can use any rack no matter what have examples in tournaments where one player did not want a rack to be used that someone brought with them but they were told "tough"? Because the other way we DO have tournament and match examples where it is not allowed.

That's what I was told for leagues and tournaments in South Dakota too. I could use it if the player agreed it was okay and he/she had the option of using it too. If I were to say "No, I don't want you to use it" or he/she would have said they didn't want me to use it I would not be able to use it in that match.

That is how the ones I've played in have worked as well.

And in all the Joss tours I've been in (2) and watched (at least another 2) we were told that if someone wanted to use a different rack, both players agreed to it or it's not being used.

I'd wish we had more official refs posting here, would love to hear what a trained ref for a national organization would say vs what is just a personal opinion. This is not a "what would you do if you were playing" or "what is the better rack". If it was me, I would be fine if someone used the Magic Rack, and I would use it also. Unless it was a guy that I knew could run 2-3-4 racks if they got a good break going, although in that case, that same guy probably knew how to rack good enough with a regular rack that it won't make much difference to me. That does not matter though because the situation is not what you would do if someone asked to use a different rack, but what an official should say if one player objected.

 

[GideonF]

Great for practice as you dont have to monkey around with the rack, but knowing how to rack the balls these days and checking the rack to make sure it's to your liking is just as much a part of the game as shooting the balls in.



I use one for practice at home juse to make racking quicker... but I dont believe it should be used in competition unless both players agree to use it... if at all... Players need to learn to rack properly and learn how to check the rack as well.

But what does "learn to rack properly" mean? For many players (and I'm not saying you are one of them) it means "how to rack so your opponent doesn't make a ball or doesn't have a shot on the one ball". Some people think this is okay and it is up to their opponent to object to the gaff and "all part of the game". Others, like me, think the racker's obligation is to give the breaker the best rack he can - balls frozen, no pattern.

If you are in the former category, then the Magic Rack is a problem, because it negates (or makes it harder to use) the racker's gaff skills and the "spotting the gaff" skill. If you are in the latter category, you say "good".

It is, of course, a different problem dealing with the fact that among top players a consistently good rack means that 9 ball is too easy. One solution is to change to 10 ball, as many pro events are doing.

One thing I do agree with - the rule needs to be clear before the event starts to avoid just the problem the OP faced.


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[Icon of Sin]

But what does "learn to rack properly" mean? For many players (and I'm not saying you are one of them) it means "how to rack so your opponent doesn't make a ball or doesn't have a shot on the one ball". Some people think this is okay and it is up to their opponent to object to the gaff and "all part of the game". Others, like me, think the racker's obligation is to give the breaker the best rack he can - balls frozen, no pattern.

Learn how to rack the balls and give your opponent as good a rack as you would give yourself... this is also why I mentioned checking the rack, you have the option of looking at the rack and detecting a slug as well...

In rack your own, you need to know how to give yourself a good rack. In rack for your opponent, you need to know how to give your opponent a good rack as well as know how to read a rack so your opponent doesnt slug you.

 

[haystj]

Is all of this "Rack" talk a double entendre????

Is this thread really about Boobs?

 

[Grantstew]

We play the rule that if someone wants to play with the magic rack, then the other player has to agree.

 

[hang-the-9]

Is all of this "Rack" talk a double entendre????

Is this thread really about Boobs?

There'd be more pictures.

 

[robsnotes4u]

We play the rule that if someone wants to play with the magic rack, then the other player has to agree.

Talked to a friend who plays pro events last night and he said the same. Most tournaments will say you can or can't use the MR in the players meeting. At that point all you need to do is inform the other player that you will be using it,. He has the choice to use or not, but can not tell you you can't.


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[liakos]

Not sure if this was mentioned but I just watched Corey and Shane play there 8 ball match and Shane WAS using the magic rack and Corey did NOT use it!

My opinion is as long as both players agree than it should be fine! If the tourney director says it doesn't matter, than I would be a gentleman about it! If the other guy wants to be a dick about it,,,,, then I will safe him to high heaven until I see he can't shoot anymore and just run out

You don't necessarily have to be a dick in person when you can just be a dick at the table

Remember, it's always you against the table, the other guy is waiting for you to miss,,,,,,, so don't miss

 

[sixpack]

Mebbe.

My thoughts on it are this. The guys runs out good. So do I.

He also does not play all that well post break when he does not get an open shot on the 1 with moderately easy position. He doesn't have a great break without the magic rack. Mine is much better.

Therefore....

By being forced to use the magic rack, my better break is negated, because the wing ball goes 90% of the time. He'll literally get out off the break almost every time.

This also negates any post-break play where decision making is involved.

No offense, but anyone who doesn't see problems with the magic rack negating skill either doesn't play good enough players, or aren't good enough themselves for it to make a difference.. :-D

Short Bus Russ

A great matchup would be you using the magic rack and Island Drive using the wood rack. I might be inclined to bet a little on Island on that one.

 

[fan-tum]

What is your problem with the magic rack?
If you both use the same rack, there is no advantages either way...
The magic rack ensures that the balls are touching, how is that a bad thing?

I was out of touch with pool for a few years and would like to know why those spring loaded racks (name escapes me) aren't prevalent any more.

 

[ktrepal85]

The tournament director is correct. What if jump cues were allowed and he was the only one that brought one, would you complain then ( you wouldn't even have the option to use his)?


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I disagree. A jump cue is a personal item that you bring to the tournament. A rack is a piece of equipment that is part of the tournament venue. If you let people bring their own racks then they might want to bring their own balls, where do you draw the line? What if someone wants to bring their own table lol? You can't change the equipment of the tournament venue therefore he should not have been allowed to use his magic rack.

 

[hang-the-9]

I was out of touch with pool for a few years and would like to know why those spring loaded racks (name escapes me) aren't prevalent any more.

I'm guessing the Sardo? Heavy, pricy, bulky and had to be tapped into the table. Did make the balls tight though, but the template racks are 1/10th the price, 1/100th the weight, don't mess up the cloth with divots and work as well.

 

[Bavafongoul]

You allowed a mechanical function....racking the pool balls....to cause you to lose.
The rack is the same for you or him since the director said you had to also be allowed to use it.

Pool is a game that's played between the ears before you ever grip your cue. If you allow your
opponent, or the use of a magic rack, to get into your head, you deserve the loss. Now remember
that you learn from your losses & so be sure to learn from this one. Next time, don't let it get to you.

Matt B.

 

[tatcat2000]

I'd wish we had more official refs posting here, would love to hear what a trained ref for a national organization would say vs what is just a personal opinion. This is not a "what would you do if you were playing" or "what is the better rack".

Already done for CSI, but I'll add a little for WSR.

WSR has no specific guidance:

* The only references to rack/racking in WSR - Table and Equipment Specifications paragraph 16, and Rule 8 - Definitions, offer no help other than to say a wood rack is preferred.

* The word "rack" - referring to a device to form the rack - appears nowhere in the General Rules or Rule 6, or anywhere else that will help.

That leaves only Regulation 1, Administrative Discretion, meaning that the TD can do whatever they please. If you have a weak TD that is going to rubber stamp whatever the referee says, the referee will do whatever they please. Absolutely zero chance of any consistency from event to event.

No clue for other organizations - you would have to wait for their refs to chime in.

Me personally as an experienced ref? If I were hired to do a non-CSI event and the subject came up, I would defer to the TD. That's what they are there for - to make decisions that are not covered by the rules. If the TD was weak and made me decide, I would probably lean 51-49 in favor of disallowing the rack if not announced before the match started - but the decision would have been made and announced before the first rack of the event was broken.

Buddy

^^^^^^ Wrote the Tournament Regulations you quoted earlier.

CSI National Head Referee / Director of Referee Training Emeritus
(emeritus, yes, but the CSI Rules/Tournament Regulations for the Magic Ball Rack have not changed since I retired.)

Edit: when I said "wrote" I meant the technical writing. The decision concerning allowing the MBR, at the player's option, to be used instead of the rack provided with the table was made by Mr Griffin.

Edit again: Sometimes I just get lost in the weeds, which is where most of this thread is, including one of my previous posts. Realizing Hang is - I think - still asking about a trained ref's opinion about the actual OP situation, which is making a call on the fly in the middle of a tourney and without the subject having been discussed prior to the tourney and no other established regulation in place: no way am I going to allow the MBR in the OP situation.