Open Tournament Seeding

wutang said:
NOOOOOOOOOO! OPEN TOURNAMENT= RANDOM DRAW!! NO SEEDING, PERIOD! AINT NUTHIN TO TALK ABOUT!! TAKE ALL THE NAMES(NUMBERS), THROW' EM IN A HAT, AND LET EVERYONE ONE BY ONE TAKE A NUMBER. WHATEVER NUMBER YOU PICK, THATS THE SLOT YOU GO INTO ON THE TOURNAMENT CHART. ITS THAT SIMPLE. END OF STORY.

HEADS WANT SEEDINGS FOR ONE REASON: LESS DIFFICULT PATH TO CASH!!

ITS JUST FUNNY HOW WE JUST HAD THE FATBOY CHALLENGE AT DERBY CITY. 16 TOP NOTCH PLAYERS UNQUESTIONABLE SELECTED FOR THE TOURNEY!! THE ELITE OF OUR POOL WORLD!! I DIDNT HEAR ANYONE OF THEM GOING UP TO FATBOY OR GREG TALKING ABOUT SEEDINGS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. THEY JUST GOT UP THERE AND PLAYED. WELL IF YOU CAN DO THAT FOR THE FBC, THEN YOU CAN DO THAT FOR ANY OTHER TOURNAMENT!! YES?


ALSO ON ANOTHER NOTE THE DRAW NEEDS TO BE DONE IN FRONT OF THE PLAYERS!! NOT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS!!! BEEN TO TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS WHERE FIRST ROUNDS MATCHUPS HAVE BEEN VERY SUSPECT!!! HOW YOU GONNA COME WITH YOUR ROADDOG AND OUT OF 50+ PEOPLE WITH A 'RANDOM DRAW' YOU DRAW YOU MAN IN THE FIRST ROUND?? COUGH *B^LL$H^T* COUGH. HOW YOU GONNA HAVE 3 WOMEN AND 40 GUYS FOR THE TOURNEY AND 2 OF THE 3 LADIES DRAW EACH OTHER IN THE FIRST ROUND? COUGH *B^LL$H^T* COUGH. HOW YOU GONNA PLAY THE SAME GUY/GIRL IN THE FIRST ROUND 4 OR 5 CONSECUTIVE TOURNAMENTS IN A ROW??? COUGH *B^LL$H^T* COUGH.


SOMEBODY TALK TO ME!!!!.....QQ IF YOU GETTING ODDS LIKE THAT, YOU SHOULD TAKE YOUR TALENTS TO THE NEAREST CASINO AND GET RICH!!! :-)

I DONT KNOW, MAYBE ITS ME SEEING GHOSTS!!! :eek:

THESE EVILS IN THE POOL WORLD MUST SSSTTTOOOPPP!!!

PEACE

WUTANG
Click to expand...


lol. I agree -- I have always had a problem with draws done out of sight of the players and I hate the DCC "Black Box" computer draw where all the names go into a computer and come out the other side. I have said it before and I will say it again: there are certain things in life that should be totally transparent and one of those is the draw for a major tournament.

So, let me ask you: very recently, a major promoter has said on-line "...we will be scheduling all of the matchs weeks before the actual event."

This would be for a major (and "open" event).

How do you feel about THAT?

Lou Figueroa
not liking it
 
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Round Robin formats take forever and deal making take place. But, a smart TD can schedule the questionalble matches early.

Same for DE and SE. Savers are always part of the game.

Seeding means that the Savers will a good thing. Better chance of cashing for all the favored players.

But, for what it is worth, if there is seeding ... it has to be Single Elimination and LONG races.
IMO..
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Round Robin formats take forever and deal making take place. But, a smart TD can schedule the questionalble matches early.

Same for DE and SE. Savers are always part of the game.

Seeding means that the Savers will a good thing. Better chance of cashing for all the favored players.

But, for what it is worth, if there is seeding ... it has to be Single Elimination and LONG races.
IMO..
Click to expand...


If I am spending money (and time and effort) to travel to and enter a tournament, why is, say, Johnny Archer's money, better than my money?

Lou Figueroa
just askin'
 
:smile:For me there isn't one bit of difference...in fact, I would think yours would be more appreciated, because someone will pay for JA's everything... I doubt he even carries a wallet. :smile:

lfigueroa said:
If I am spending money (and time and effort) to travel to and enter a tournament, why is, say, Johnny Archer's money, better than my money?

Lou Figueroa
just askin'
Click to expand...
 
Tom In Cincy said:
:smile:For me there isn't one bit of difference...in fact, I would think yours would be more appreciated, because someone will pay for JA's everything... I doubt he even carries a wallet. :smile:
Click to expand...


LOL.

You know, Tom, I don't know about you, but when I occasionally go to play in big events -- at which I really have *zero* business going to for any reason other than love of the game; a willingness to support it; a chance to get some seasoning; maybe garner a war story or two; and to enjoy a few yuks -- I use funds from what I call my "Pro Pool Player Retirement Fund" to go and donate.

I really don't mind donating, but I do want a fair shake (and draw).

Lou Figueroa
 
Under-Dogs UNITE!

Like most things in life, it all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

When I first started supporting major events by competing in them, I did so to see first hand what it was like to compete against the best and I was willing to pay and take the flogging.

As time wore on, I found that I could win a match every now and then and that satisfied me for a while.

As more time wore on, I found that occasionally I could cash in the national events, maybe not a big score but a score nevertheless.

All the while, I knew I was cannon fodder for the promoters and the professional players and still am. That doesn't bother me. I've always been a volunteer for people and causes I've believed in. Seeding is really a slap in the face to guys like me. I don't mind spending my money competing in events I have no chance of winning but I at least want to be treated fairly in spite of my lack of talent.

There's a number of things that I dislike far more than seeding. for example; preferential treatment of players, like TD's overlooking unsportsmanlike behavior by players, like gentlemanly sharking, like just plain low-down sharking, simple distracting by my opponent whether on person or accidental and no I won't tolerate cheating either but seeding isn't one of my favorite things either as you can tell.

I've been to FAR TOO MANY national events to believe that anyone really cares about who is playing in the later rounds (unless they've got a buck bet on the match or a saver or a friend still in the event). The spectator crowd thins quickly toward the end of a pool event. You need a Ghost-Buster Team to find a pro player who isn't still in the event, but still watching the later rounds.

So if you think people want to see the top players in these latter stages of these national events, get your butt out of your chair and get on down to the event and SUPPORT IT either by PLAYING or SPECTATING in person.

Until the promoters and the professional players no longer want or need my contributions, I say to hell with seeding. When the television advertising dollars start pouring in, I will be happy to sit at home and cheer on my favorite champion or perhaps to sit in the commentary booth with my favorite co-commentator.

This goes for amateur events, regional events, national events and international events.

By the way, there is NOTHING more exciting than watching (or being) a known underdog, having a magical match, playing well, fighting for every game against a known champion and winning.

I EXPECT to be treated fairly, nothing more.
 
lfigueroa said:
lol. I agree -- I have always had a problem with draws done out of sight of the players and I hate the DCC "Black Box" computer draw where all the names go into a computer and come out the other side. I have said it before and I will say it again: there are certain things in life that should be totally transparent and one of those is the draw for a major tournament.

So, let me ask you: very recently, a major promoter has said on-line "...we will be scheduling all of the matchs weeks before the actual event."

This would be for a major (and "open" event).

How do you feel about THAT?

Lou Figueroa
not liking it
Click to expand...

I don't see any problem with scheduling the TIME OF THE MATCHES based upon the number of players in the event, just not the drawing of the actual player's names.

There are lots of seemingly good reasons for automatic computer generated drawings but even those should be done in public, imo.

The draw can be an exciting and fun time for the players and the spectators. The draw doesn't have to take a long time. It should be open and transparent, perhaps using a mechanical system like a bingo number calling machine where a person rotates the drum and pulls out a single number. The numbers and corresponding names could be called out in a short period of time and make it a special part of the event with microphones and all.

But making good use of the players' time AND MONEY could be put to good use by providing each player with a complete and detailed set of rules for the event, IN ADVANCE.

The questions that come up about the rules and the talking that goes on in a player's meeting takes up far more time than a quick, open mechanical draw.

My $.02.
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Like most things in life, it all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

When I first started supporting major events by competing in them, I did so to see first hand what it was like to compete against the best and I was willing to pay and take the flogging.

As time wore on, I found that I could win a match every now and then and that satisfied me for a while.

As more time wore on, I found that occasionally I could cash in the national events, maybe not a big score but a score nevertheless.

All the while, I knew I was cannon fodder for the promoters and the professional players and still am. That doesn't bother me. I've always been a volunteer for people and causes I've believed in. Seeding is really a slap in the face to guys like me. I don't mind spending my money competing in events I have no chance of winning but I at least want to be treated fairly in spite of my lack of talent.

There's a number of things that I dislike far more than seeding. for example; preferential treatment of players, like TD's overlooking unsportsmanlike behavior by players, like gentlemanly sharking, like just plain low-down sharking, simple distracting by my opponent whether on person or accidental and no I won't tolerate cheating either but seeding isn't one of my favorite things either as you can tell.

I've been to FAR TOO MANY national events to believe that anyone really cares about who is playing in the later rounds (unless they've got a buck bet on the match or a saver or a friend still in the event). The spectator crowd thins quickly toward the end of a pool event. You need a Ghost-Buster Team to find a pro player who isn't still in the event, but still watching the later rounds.

So if you think people want to see the top players in these latter stages of these national events, get your butt out of your chair and get on down to the event and SUPPORT IT either by PLAYING or SPECTATING in person.

Until the promoters and the professional players no longer want or need my contributions, I say to hell with seeding. When the television advertising dollars start pouring in, I will be happy to sit at home and cheer on my favorite champion or perhaps to sit in the commentary booth with my favorite co-commentator.

This goes for amateur events, regional events, national events and international events.

By the way, there is NOTHING more exciting than watching (or being) a known underdog, having a magical match, playing well, fighting for every game against a known champion and winning.

I EXPECT to be treated fairly, nothing more.
Click to expand...

Is there anything else to be said...I think you summed it up Joey..and lets face it everyone loves a David vs. Goliath..and when David wins..oh yeah !
 
JoeyA said:
Like most things in life, it all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

When I first started supporting major events by competing in them, I did so to see first hand what it was like to compete against the best and I was willing to pay and take the flogging.

As time wore on, I found that I could win a match every now and then and that satisfied me for a while.

As more time wore on, I found that occasionally I could cash in the national events, maybe not a big score but a score nevertheless.

All the while, I knew I was cannon fodder for the promoters and the professional players and still am. That doesn't bother me. I've always been a volunteer for people and causes I've believed in. Seeding is really a slap in the face to guys like me. I don't mind spending my money competing in events I have no chance of winning but I at least want to be treated fairly in spite of my lack of talent.

There's a number of things that I dislike far more than seeding. for example; preferential treatment of players, like TD's overlooking unsportsmanlike behavior by players, like gentlemanly sharking, like just plain low-down sharking, simple distracting by my opponent whether on person or accidental and no I won't tolerate cheating either but seeding isn't one of my favorite things either as you can tell.

I've been to FAR TOO MANY national events to believe that anyone really cares about who is playing in the later rounds (unless they've got a buck bet on the match or a saver or a friend still in the event). The spectator crowd thins quickly toward the end of a pool event. You need a Ghost-Buster Team to find a pro player who isn't still in the event, but still watching the later rounds.

So if you think people want to see the top players in these latter stages of these national events, get your butt out of your chair and get on down to the event and SUPPORT IT either by PLAYING or SPECTATING in person.

Until the promoters and the professional players no longer want or need my contributions, I say to hell with seeding. When the television advertising dollars start pouring in, I will be happy to sit at home and cheer on my favorite champion or perhaps to sit in the commentary booth with my favorite co-commentator.

This goes for amateur events, regional events, national events and international events.

By the way, there is NOTHING more exciting than watching (or being) a known underdog, having a magical match, playing well, fighting for every game against a known champion and winning.

I EXPECT to be treated fairly, nothing more.
Click to expand...


Well said, Joey.

The majority of the successful events out there are built on the backs of amateur players who are willing to get in and mix up knowing full well that their participation is tantamount to a donation to the pro players, the promoter, the event, and the sport. I think the minimum payback should be fair and equal treatment for all players.

Lou Figueroa
 
JoeyA said:
I don't see any problem with scheduling the TIME OF THE MATCHES based upon the number of players in the event, just not the drawing of the actual player's names.

There are lots of seemingly good reasons for automatic computer generated drawings but even those should be done in public, imo.

The draw can be an exciting and fun time for the players and the spectators. The draw doesn't have to take a long time. It should be open and transparent, perhaps using a mechanical system like a bingo number calling machine where a person rotates the drum and pulls out a single number. The numbers and corresponding names could be called out in a short period of time and make it a special part of the event with microphones and all.

But making good use of the players' time AND MONEY could be put to good use by providing each player with a complete and detailed set of rules for the event, IN ADVANCE.

The questions that come up about the rules and the talking that goes on in a player's meeting takes up far more time than a quick, open mechanical draw.

My $.02.
JoeyA
Click to expand...


Amen.

Quick story: back in the late 70's I went to a 9ball (?!) tournament at a Corner Pocket of America up in Billings, Montana. We all show up for the player's meeting and ask about the draw and the TD says, "We've got a computer in the basement and it's being done as we speak."

It wasn't until weeks later when I'm talking with someone about the event and the draw and they laugh and tell me, "Hell, that building doesn't even have a basement and there was no computer -- they were in the back room rigging the draw so that Frank McGowan (part owner of the room) would win."

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Amen.

Quick story: back in the late 70's I went to a 9ball (?!) tournament at a Corner Pocket of America up in Billings, Montana. We all show up for the player's meeting and ask about the draw and the TD says, "We've got a computer in the basement and it's being done as we speak."

It wasn't until weeks later when I'm talking with someone about the event and the draw and they laugh and tell me, "Hell, that building doesn't even have a basement and there was no computer -- they were in the back room rigging the draw so that Frank McGowan (part owner of the room) would win."

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

I went to a pool tournament and they had 10 a chance drawings for cues.
I bought 1 or 2 the first draw and the owners wife won the cue .
I thought wow thats pretty cool and honestly did not even think of funny business.
They are drawing on another cue and I buy a couple more.
This guy wins and goes and gets the cue and they have another drawing .
I buy a couple more and this time the owner wins the cue and I am thinking it doesn't seem right.
Then I found out the oddball guy that won works for the poolroom as a swamper and doesn't even play pool.
I don't like to lose, but I deal with it.
I really hate being cheated though, especially by people who pretend to be a friend.
 
Fair treatment in a tournament. Or is it EQUAL treatment?

IMO, it should be 'Fair and Equal' treament for all.

When I run a tournament I usually do the draw by numbers. No names are needed.

If anyone asks about the draw, I always ask if they would like to help and see how it is done, I've had quite a few players take me up on this offer. It provides a fair chance to anyone interested in seeing how the draw is done. Even for the 128 player tournament I ran last Oct.

IMO "The Draw" should never be a secret.
The Payouts should be posted with a full explanation of of how the money was totaled. Entry Fees + Added = 100% payout, it is that simple.

If the promoters want to collect Registration and/or Green fees that should be their business. You don't ask a car dealer to break down how much he and the dealership make on a car sale do you? What they do with their profit is their business. If they want to add it back to the tournament, that is great. But, they at least ought to (IMO) add it separate from what the Added is already stated. I.E. if $500 added with a full field of 32 and 48 show up and they expand the tournament... then another $250 can be added from the extra 16 players.

IMO, you've got to trust the TD/Promoter to do these tournament formats and payouts correctly each time you play. Being upset about not being treated fairly or that there are money issues with payouts affect a lot of players performances. They won't complain, they just won't come back.
 
Based on the fact that the door helps cover added money from spectators I have to say I am in favor of seeding and in allowing the euro players to be played the 2nd day of the first round or any other named player who is competing in another event and has logistical issues. The busiest days at the Open are final 2 days because Joe Plumber isn't going to take the week off and come watch the whole thing. Some do but they are the exception.

With the seeding you hedge the bets that the better players are going further into the tournament AND you build up the Cinderella story for guys like Jesse Engle to pull off back to back wins against Earl and then Sigel...

Tennis should be the model but until we have a real sanctioning body for the men that maintains a true ranking system I think it falls on the promoter to seed the tournament based upon the players that show.

The scheduling around logistical issues helps to make sure you have the highest quality field show. I would hate to show up to a tournament and there be no euros or pinoys because the TD/promoter refused to work around the logistics. The WPA could give a rip about any tournaments held on US Soil for the most part and do I jam up job of trying to schedule events on top of events that they don't sanction. As long as the WPA is playing that game any good Promoter or TD HAS to work with the players schedules so that the paying spectators get to see a who's who of the pool world and not just a bunch of wannabes and up and comers.

If you are whining about preferential treatment I suggest you do exactly what these guys did... Suck it up, play the game and win something and you too will get the golden ticket. If you think they are beating your tail and winning tournaments because of the slight advantages they have earned you need to go find another game to play. I would suggest solitaire so you don't have to figure out who's fault it is that you got owned... Well there is Hoyle since they publish the solitaire rules....

With that I am off to practice just in case the next tournament I play in is seeded. Will have to play at a super high level instead of hoping for an easy bracket and backing into some cashola...... :outtahere:
 
The Renfro said:
Based on the fact that the door helps cover added money from spectators I have to say I am in favor of seeding and in allowing the euro players to be played the 2nd day of the first round or any other named player who is competing in another event and has logistical issues. The busiest days at the Open are final 2 days because Joe Plumber isn't going to take the week off and come watch the whole thing. Some do but they are the exception.

With the seeding you hedge the bets that the better players are going further into the tournament AND you build up the Cinderella story for guys like Jesse Engle to pull off back to back wins against Earl and then Sigel...

Tennis should be the model but until we have a real sanctioning body for the men that maintains a true ranking system I think it falls on the promoter to seed the tournament based upon the players that show.

The scheduling around logistical issues helps to make sure you have the highest quality field show. I would hate to show up to a tournament and there be no euros or pinoys because the TD/promoter refused to work around the logistics. The WPA could give a rip about any tournaments held on US Soil for the most part and do I jam up job of trying to schedule events on top of events that they don't sanction. As long as the WPA is playing that game any good Promoter or TD HAS to work with the players schedules so that the paying spectators get to see a who's who of the pool world and not just a bunch of wannabes and up and comers.

If you are whining about preferential treatment I suggest you do exactly what these guys did... Suck it up, play the game and win something and you too will get the golden ticket. If you think they are beating your tail and winning tournaments because of the slight advantages they have earned you need to go find another game to play. I would suggest solitaire so you don't have to figure out who's fault it is that you got owned... Well there is Hoyle since they publish the solitaire rules....

With that I am off to practice just in case the next tournament I play in is seeded. Will have to play at a super high level instead of hoping for an easy bracket and backing into some cashola...... :outtahere:
Click to expand...


Well, I wasn't talking about the US Open, per se, I was talking about open tournaments in general. So I'm curious: do you travel across the country to a lot of open tournaments?

Because if you do, I was wondering how you felt about taking that extra day off work to be at the tournament on time, missing your kid's soccer game, checking into your $100-$150 a night hotel room, which you've driven to in your $60 a day rental car, and then showing up at the tournament to be told that your first round seeded player draw is late coming from another event and you won't play until tomorrow? Or that maybe your seeded pro opponent was up all night gambling and he slept in so you won't play until tomorrow... Or, that your pro opponent just wanted to delay your match so he could go to the steak house and have dinner with his girl friend? Me -- I've traveled to a good number of open events over the last few years and have seen all of the previous scenarios (and more) actually take place.

But I guess, since you're working on that golden ticket, which you'll probably never achieve because you have a real life, you'll suck it up and it's all OK. Good on ya.

Lou Figueroa
me
I'd be pissed :-)
 
Seeding a known professional player in a pool tournament is like giving an Olympic runner a head start in a foot race. It doesn't make any sense.

All players should be treated equal.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Fair treatment in a tournament. Or is it EQUAL treatment?

IMO, it should be 'Fair and Equal' treament for all.

When I run a tournament I usually do the draw by numbers. No names are needed.

If anyone asks about the draw, I always ask if they would like to help and see how it is done, I've had quite a few players take me up on this offer. It provides a fair chance to anyone interested in seeing how the draw is done. Even for the 128 player tournament I ran last Oct.

IMO "The Draw" should never be a secret.
The Payouts should be posted with a full explanation of of how the money was totaled. Entry Fees + Added = 100% payout, it is that simple.

If the promoters want to collect Registration and/or Green fees that should be their business. You don't ask a car dealer to break down how much he and the dealership make on a car sale do you? What they do with their profit is their business. If they want to add it back to the tournament, that is great. But, they at least ought to (IMO) add it separate from what the Added is already stated. I.E. if $500 added with a full field of 32 and 48 show up and they expand the tournament... then another $250 can be added from the extra 16 players.

IMO, you've got to trust the TD/Promoter to do these tournament formats and payouts correctly each time you play. Being upset about not being treated fairly or that there are money issues with payouts affect a lot of players performances. They won't complain, they just won't come back.
Click to expand...

Tom,
Approximately, how long does it take you to draw 64 names and write them in the appropriate spot on the tournament board?

JoeyA
 
From the people who play in the big event tournaments, the vast majority seem to prefer NO SEEDING.

Seeding might be good for events where sponsors put up hundreds of thousands of dollars or MILLIONS of dollars to insure that their player doesn't accidentally get shot down by a new player having a magical tournament.
 
lfigueroa said:
OK, same question: why for one and not the other?

And I totally agree with you that from the promoter's point of view it makes total sense to try and get the big names at the end for the spectators, DVD sales, and PPV.

But, now let me ask you how it looks from the point of view of the amateur, who is being exhorted by the promoter to enter said event? Do you feel the same then?

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Let me be clear here. There is no good reason for seeding players but it is a fact of life in major tournaments for the reason I stated in my original post.

True pool fans would appreciate a totally blind draw, which is the most fair way to go. However, the promoter of a large event is going to make his money from the marginal or novice pool fan that is just coming to see their favorite player, in the late rounds, against another known player. If this fan walks in and sees two players, unknown to him and the rest of the crowd, he will leave and not come back for the next tournament. The promoter has to protect himself. After all, he is the one taking all of the financial risk.

From the view of the amateur player, it sucks, but they know what they are getting into and they know the chance of them winning is extremely low. They do it for the experience and, in the end, they will have a better story to tell if they get a few games against SVB than if they lose hill-hill to another unknown.
 
lfigueroa said:
lol. I agree -- i have always had a problem with draws done out of sight of the players and i hate the dcc "black box" computer draw where all the names go into a computer and come out the other side. I have said it before and i will say it again: There are certain things in life that should be totally transparent and one of those is the draw for a major tournament.

So, let me ask you: Very recently, a major promoter has said on-line "...we will be scheduling all of the matchs weeks before the actual event."

this would be for a major (and "open" event).

How do you feel about that?

Lou figueroa
not liking it
Click to expand...


I dont like it either. I smell a setup!!! Plain and simple!! Aint no need to do it that early...unless...QQ

WUTANG
 
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