Opinions on the Joss JN-7

[Shawn Armstrong]

I know the differences in hit and also know that what is best is almost all personal preference. Your claim is that some hits are objectively and inherently better than others. You made the claim so tell us which hits you think are objectively and inherently best, and why, and provide your evidence.

I can take any cue you give me, and change the "hit" of it in about 6 minutes. I put a split elkmaster on it, it will hit like a wet sponge. If I put a good Le Pro on it, it will hit solid. If I put a water buffalo on it, it will hit even more crisp. Or I could change the ferrule material. A thermoset plastic ferrule will be mellow. An ivorine-3 ferrule will be more tingy and hard. None of these changes have anything to do with the cue construction. But they'll change a lot of that so called "feel" you talk about.

I wasn't agreeing with you. Hit is some "mystique" that is subjective, but the feel and perceived "hit" of the cue will have nothing to do with its actual performance. I've had cues that felt great when playing, but they weren't "good cues" My old Meucci back in the 90s had a great feel. I loved how it hit. But one day, I was undoing the cue, and the forearm untwisted from the handle, instead of breaking apart at the joint. The cue was assembled poorly.

Would I rather have a cue that felt wonderful in my hands, I loved the feel of the contact, but the path of the cueball was erratic when playing varying amounts of english.....or a cue that hit like a carrot, but I knew exactly where the cueball was going when I played any spin? I'll take the carrot.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I can take any cue you give me, and change the "hit" of it in about 6 minutes. I put a split elkmaster on it, it will hit like a wet sponge. If I put a good Le Pro on it, it will hit solid. If I put a water buffalo on it, it will hit even more crisp. Or I could change the ferrule material. A thermoset plastic ferrule will be mellow. An ivorine-3 ferrule will be more tingy and hard. None of these changes have anything to do with the cue construction. But they'll change a lot of that so called "feel" you talk about.

I wasn't agreeing with you. Hit is some "mystique" that is subjective, but the feel and perceived "hit" of the cue will have nothing to do with its actual performance. I've had cues that felt great when playing, but they weren't "good cues" My old Meucci back in the 90s had a great feel. I loved how it hit. But one day, I was undoing the cue, and the forearm untwisted from the handle, instead of breaking apart at the joint. The cue was assembled poorly.

Would I rather have a cue that felt wonderful in my hands, I loved the feel of the contact, but the path of the cueball was erratic when playing varying amounts of english.....or a cue that hit like a carrot, but I knew exactly where the cueball was going when I played any spin? I'll take the carrot.

Again, you said all the exact same things I have been saying and are completely agreeing with me. Apparently you just aren't comprehending my posts because you just keep repeating back to me the exact same things I have said.

While feel and hit have nothing to do with actual performance, I think they can have a psychological affect on our performance though and you didn't mention that part. If you just can't stand the hit or feel you may not play as well with it even though it is not inherently inferior and it doesn't affect the performance of the cue itself just as we have both said.

You did finally saying something new that I disagree with though. You mention that the path of the cue ball is erratic with some cues and while I believe this is a common perception I do not believe it is generally the reality. It is erratic because of the person for whatever the reason. I think testing would prove this out. Hook those same cues up to a robot and they would not create erratic cue ball paths, nor would they have erratic cue ball paths in every other player's hands.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Again, you said all the exact same things I have been saying and are completely agreeing with me. Apparently you just aren't comprehending my posts because you just keep repeating back to me the exact same things I have said.

While feel and hit have nothing to do with actual performance, I think they can have a psychological affect on our performance though and you didn't mention that part. If you just can't stand the hit or feel you may not play as well with it even though it is not inherently inferior and it doesn't affect the performance of the cue itself just as we have both said.

You did finally saying something new that I disagree with though. You mention that the path of the cue ball is erratic with some cues and while I believe this is a common perception I do not believe it is generally the reality. It is erratic because of the person for whatever the reason. I think testing would prove this out. Hook those same cues up to a robot and they would not create erratic cue ball paths, nor would they have erratic cue ball paths in every other player's hands.

Except Joss cues. In your hands, they play like garbage. To everyone else that has used them, they play well.

 

[skins]

I know the differences in hit and also know that what is best is almost all personal preference. Your claim is that some hits are objectively and inherently better than others. You made the claim so tell us which hits you think are objectively and inherently best, and why, and provide your evidence.

My claim is that "I" can tell... Now when "I tell", by of course playing with the cues, I will then explain to YOU why. Explaining also requires you to hit with them after i explain and you MAY understand.. Then again you may not..

Are you in or are you just going to keep waltzing around my offer?

You can and will keep saying you know this and you know that but the fact that you disagree with me means that you just don't know... I here waiting for the cues whenever you want...

 

[Colonel]

Interesting! Any suggestions?

Sure, look up thread Harris Cue 2 right now. You can get that cue for $750. I think you might find it a bit of an upgrade compared to the Joss.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Except Joss cues. In your hands, they play like garbage. To everyone else that has used them, they play well.

And I've not only said others might like them (although contrary to your post plenty don't) but I even said right from the get go that it will be the best cue in the world to some people and that there is nothing inherently wrong with them they just aren't at all suited for my tastes. So what exactly do you disagree with me on again (because once again you are agreeing with me completely)? I have yet to see a single thing that you disagree with me on. Not one. If you have something you disagree with me on then by all means mention it, but so far you have just argued back to me the exact same things I have been saying. I have never seen somebody trying so hard to argue with someone else who is saying the same things they are.

 

[Poolplaya9]

My claim is that "I" can tell... Now when "I tell", by of course playing with the cues, I will then explain to YOU why. Explaining also requires you to hit with them after i explain and you MAY understand.. Then again you may not..

Are you in or are you just going to keep waltzing around my offer?

You can and will keep saying you know this and you know that but the fact that you disagree with me means that you just don't know... I here waiting for the cues whenever you want...

Well you are full of crap and dead wrong on your claim. If you have some evidence, post it. There is nothing you could ever teach me about the hit of a cue and how it affects play, I can assure you of that. You have that one backwards in fact.

But again, if you think a certain hit or hits are somehow superior for everyone, explain what they are, and your evidence for that belief. Are you going to take me up on that, or are you just going to keep blowing smoke and waltzing around on doing that?

 

[Buzzard II]

If this was a survey I'd vote with Poolplaya 9. I have money tied up in very pretty cues that "hit a ton"
But my sig shows I play with a Frey SP that hits only 18.8 oz. My on the road cue is a McDermott SP that hits 19oz. I love McDermotts too. Ya gotta problem wid dat? It's what feels good to the person. Each one of us. That leaves room for pretty much anything.

For Skins to think that he alone is the arbiter of what hits good is pretty damn arrogant.

 

[mr.d.scottie]

If this was a survey I'd vote with Poolplaya 9. I have money tied up in very pretty cues that "hit a ton"
But my sig shows I play with a Frey SP that hits only 18.8 oz. My on the road cue is a McDermott SP that hits 19oz. I love McDermotts too. Ya gotta problem wid dat? It's what feels good to the person. Each one of us. That leaves room for pretty much anything.

For Skins to think that he alone is the arbiter of what hits good is pretty damn arrogant.

Wow.. That's gorgeous, man! Thanks for suggestion. Going to check this gentleman out.
(I quoted the completely wrong message, by the way. �� Sorry for that.)

 

[lorider]

My claim is that "I" can tell... Now when "I tell", by of course playing with the cues, I will then explain to YOU why. Explaining also requires you to hit with them after i explain and you MAY understand.. Then again you may not..

Are you in or are you just going to keep waltzing around my offer?

You can and will keep saying you know this and you know that but the fact that you disagree with me means that you just don't know... I here waiting for the cues whenever you want...

you seem to be quite an expert on cues so i hope you can explain my honest question.

how is it possible i can play better ....most of the time :grin:.... with the cheapest cue i have ever bought ?

here is why i am asking. i have several cues....mostly medium priced production cues......400.00 -500.00 range. a 1,200.00 predator. a 2,500.00 custom.

upon earning a trip to the apa nationals i was leery of taking any of my cues because i had never been and have never shipped any cues before.

i bought a cheap 40.00 sneaky pete made by premeir cue company. i played a total of 3 league matches before going to vegas and shot very well with it. my 1st match in vegas i played another 5 like me ' i won 38-4 earning my 1st ever 20-0 skunk in apa 9 ball. my 2nd match vs another 5 i won 38-10......18-2 score if my memory is right. my 3rd match was vs a s/l 7. he won the lag and i was down 18-0 before i ever got to the table. once i got to shoot i matched him point for point and lost by 1 point.

when i got back home i put that cue up and went back to my ivory.....abalone...and sterling silver laden custom. i like flashy cues .

well lately i have not been playing well so i got that cheap sneaky out of the closet and beat an s/l 8 by 38-34 the 1st night i played with it in over a year.

with that seemingly vast knowledge of cues you possess ...can you explain to me how that is possible ?

 

[skins]

Well you are full of crap and dead wrong on your claim. If you have some evidence, post it. There is nothing you could ever teach me about the hit of a cue and how it affects play, I can assure you of that. You have that one backwards in fact.

But again, if you think a certain hit or hits are somehow superior for everyone, explain what they are, and your evidence for that belief. Are you going to take me up on that, or are you just going to keep blowing smoke and waltzing around on doing that?

The fact that you keep dodging my offer speaks volumes... My offer stands to anyone who wants to take me up on it.. Now THAT should "out" me quick shouldn't it... And YES I could teach you PLENTY! Just come to the Chitown area and you can out me yourself... I'm confident it will be the other way around though...

Who did you say you were again?

 

[skins]

you seem to be quite an expert on cues so i hope you can explain my honest question.

how is it possible i can play better ....most of the time :grin:.... with the cheapest cue i have ever bought ?

here is why i am asking. i have several cues....mostly medium priced production cues......400.00 -500.00 range. a 1,200.00 predator. a 2,500.00 custom.

upon earning a trip to the apa nationals i was leery of taking any of my cues because i had never been and have never shipped any cues before.

i bought a cheap 40.00 sneaky pete made by premeir cue company. i played a total of 3 league matches before going to vegas and shot very well with it. my 1st match in vegas i played another 5 like me ' i won 38-4 earning my 1st ever 20-0 skunk in apa 9 ball. my 2nd match vs another 5 i won 38-10......18-2 score if my memory is right. my 3rd match was vs a s/l 7. he won the lag and i was down 18-0 before i ever got to the table. once i got to shoot i matched him point for point and lost by 1 point.

when i got back home i put that cue up and went back to my ivory.....abalone...and sterling silver laden custom. i like flashy cues .

well lately i have not been playing well so i got that cheap sneaky out of the closet and beat an s/l 8 by 38-34 the 1st night i played with it in over a year.

with that seemingly vast knowledge of cues you possess ...can you explain to me how that is possible ?

Well, The price of a cue does not nessesarily translate to how you can play with it NOR whether it hits well or not... I can play with just about anything with a leather tip BUT it doesn't guarantee I will play consistent. I too play with a sneaky. Custom made for me by my partner Keith Josey. It hits very well. Not as good as some other cues I have BUT I've played with it for so long I just "know" the cue.

That's where this other poster has it wrong. Ya see he thinks the hit of the cue is subjective meaning that someone may think a cue hits bad and someone else may thinks it hits good. The fact is, it either hits good or it doesn't. Now, how it "plays" is another trait you can throw into the mix. Some of us make a living knowing what to "feel" for and what to look for as far as action of the cue ball off the tip.. Both of these play a big role in determining the hit of a cue... There are house cues that hit phenomenally. And some that hit like crap. There are expensive cues that hit and play great and some that are dogs... Ultimately price means nothing... Keep that sneaky!

 

[Poolplaya9]

The fact that you keep dodging my offer speaks volumes... My offer stands to anyone who wants to take me up on it.. Now THAT should "out" me quick shouldn't it... And YES I could teach you PLENTY! Just come to the Chitown area and you can out me yourself... I'm confident it will be the other way around though...

Who did you say you were again?

Why would I want to travel to hear nonsense from somebody that doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to a cues performance and how that relates to each player? Like I said, if you think that a certain hit of a cue is universally better for everybody and universally more consistent for everybody then tell us about it here. And provide whatever evidence you have to back up that silly belief. The fact that you keep dodging this speaks volumes.

 

[skins]

Why would I want to travel to hear nonsense from somebody that doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to a cues performance and how that relates to each player? Like I said, if you think that a certain hit of a cue is universally better for everybody and universally more consistent for everybody then tell us about it here. And provide whatever evidence you have to back up that silly belief. The fact that you keep dodging this speaks volumes.

You obviously are one of the ones who just will never get it... The fact that you keep spewing gibberish against that proves it.. FACT, ANY cue the has more positive "attributes", let me rephrase that THINGS YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT NOR CAN DESCRIBE, will ALLOW for the OPPORTUNITY, to play with more consistency due to less distraction from those negative "attributes" ..YA see, people like you are so caught up in a false belief that you can't even understand the truth , which is plain common sense,bwhen it's right in your hands. Obviously you never will because YOU, who claim to be able to teach me a thing or two about cues can't "put up" and PROVE me wrong yet I have stepped out and have given you OR anyone else, an opportunity to. THAT, my freind speaks like a library of "volumes".

I'm here whenever you want to take me to school....

 

[Dedeye1209]

Interesting that you would steer someone to a cue that you prefer, and steer him away from one he might like even better. It's all personal friends, never know until you try. The likelihood is much lower of trying a custom job than trying a production cue that could provide years or decades of enjoyable service.

 

[mr.d.scottie]

Interesting that you would steer someone to a cue that you prefer, and steer him away from one he might like even better. It's all personal friends, never know until you try. The likelihood is much lower of trying a custom job than trying a production cue that could provide years or decades of enjoyable service.

I'm just going to head down to G Cue Billairds in Tempe (AZ, they own Bushka ) tomorrow and try a whole mess of em. Will find out for myself! I do like any and all suggestions though, production and otherwise. Besides the bickering, this thread has been very informative.

 

[cubswin]

Not sure the debate about how cues hit in this thread means much. I've owned roughly 150 cues. I've heard scruggs sneaky's often described as great hitting cues, and to me they were no better than one of the many joss cues I've owned.

Hit of a cue is a pretty subjective thing. Some people are going to like butt heavy cues, others will not. Some people like whippy shafts, others don't. I've known people that hated southwests, one guy hated a plain jane kersenbrock. Most people love how they hit, but not everyone.

Short of a cue being constructed in a bad way, or a shaft being completely junk wood the hit of a cue is about how it feels in your own hand, the feedback you feel, and what it does for you.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The story of the shitty hitting cue:

Had a guy bring me a cue, and told me the cue hit like shit. He wanted to get rid of it - couldn't stand the feel of it. So I asked if I could look at it. It was a Falcon with a Predator shaft. I immediately checked the rubber bumper and and weight bolt. Both were loose. Tightened the weight bolt. Tightened the bumper. I gave it back to him. "What did you change? This cue has never HIT this good!!".

The cue played IDENTICAL to the way it played with a loose bolt and bumper. But his perception was that the hit dramatically improved. NO. The hit revealed something loose in the cue, for me, as I have worked on cues for awhile. He interpreted that as "hits like shit".

To say an entire brand of cues hit bad is just ludicrous. I guess ALL 100,000 Joss Cues out there hit poorly for Playa. The funny thing is, their taper has changed. And their construction techniques. And their ferrule materials. I guess ALL of their possible permutations and combinations of cuemaking have equalled "suck". There must be a leak in a SUCK tank inside Joss.

I have hit pretty much every brand of production cue, and have yet to find a BRAND that sucks across all of their cues. I've hit customs that felt horrible, and some that felt wired into my hand. But to say that all of someone's cues are terrible is pretty condescending and arrogant. They've sold a lot of cues that would dictate otherwise - been in business since 1969, under the same ownership as the day they started. Do the Scruggs and Frey made Joss cues suck, too? Or the Stroud Joss cues? Or are Dan and Stephen the only ones that produce "SUCK"?

 

[Buzzard II]

Since it seems your main quest is an old school, George Balabushka looking cue, you might want to try a Pechauer. The 50th anniversary model "DEC2" sure is a GB lookalike. The real thing Cortland wrap too.

Somewhere out there will be a Bushka look cue that will make your hand smile. That's the one to buy. Feel and balance, the hit is just a tip change away, no matter what some say.

 

[skins]

Interesting that you would steer someone to a cue that you prefer, and steer him away from one he might like even better. It's all personal friends, never know until you try. The likelihood is much lower of trying a custom job than trying a production cue that could provide years or decades of enjoyable service.

I hope you aren't talking about me because I'm not "steering" anyone anywhere. You are right though that someone should always get the cue they "like" best. But liking a cue does not mean it "plays" well. They may like it for whatever reason but as I said "like" is not fact.

The fact is I'm glad everyone has their own preferences and buy what they like. I hope everyone can do that. I'd bet dollars to donuts if they did find a cue that actually played well, they would notice the differences compared to all other cues after that...