Opinions Please!!!

So in truth your question is

"If people that gave Kevin Varney negative trader points should
be banned"

Is this what you are trying to ask?

mrs.g
 
If you give a negative I-trader and had no dealings, a 3 days vacation is fair, BUT there is no way of knowing whether or not a transaction has taken place and when it took place. It turns into he said/she said.....
 
poolhustler said:
I understand and respect your opinion. I also appreciate it. I didn't start this thread to start a war. I simply want to know the rules that we are all expected to play by, that 's all.

If anyone can give anyone bad iTrader for "whatever" reason, so be it.

Thank you for your thoughts!!

And, for the record, again...... I have never stated anything but my personal experiences with KV. He is a big boy, he needs to defend himself when the shit hits the fan, for whatever reason.

I have asked this question before and no one has stepped up, so I'll ask it again (maybe a new thread is is order for this??), but........

"Who has KV stolen from??" I know that he has had bad communication and has been late on some cues, but has he actually taken money from someone and then NEVER delivered a cue.

The reason I ask this is because some have called him a theif. That's a pretty serious charge!!! And, if that is true, he should be banned from AZ. I have never seen anyone actually say that that is fact.

As I have stated before, my dealings with KV have been great. The same as dealing with some other really high end makers!!

So, if stating my opinion about my "Personal" dealings with a cue maker makes me a KV lover, so be it. Its only my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. I feel the same way about Schrager, Carmeli, Prewitt, etc...

I also feel strongly that people should be able to read here on AZ and be warned about scammers and bad people to deal with. That is what is SOOO great about AZ. People here watch out for each other, that's awesome. But along with that, they should be able to read ALL opinions and then make an informed decision for themselves. That is exactly what I did with KV.

I read ALL the threads pertaining to him and followed all the issues. I saw that he had issues in the past and that he made some mistakes. I also saw that he was learning from them and trying hard as hell to get caught up on orders. He was no longer taking full payment, only a deposit and trying to shorten his lead times. So, I ordered from him and he has been great throughout the whole process.

Anyway, will you please answer my original question??

Thanks,

Russ....
Click to expand...

Russ

You are a good man to do this, and we both know that AZ can do a character assassination on very little evidence and we have seen the community judge other people by much higher standards then we judge ourselves. Here's what I'll do if you will. Post your dealings with Varney, when you ordered, what he said, how it's going. I am of course very interested in what timing was discussed, etc, and we will see how it goes. If you are willing to do that (I'm assuming you don't have the cue you ordered yet) I'll be willing to judge KV solely by the one deal I have details I can trust on, yours. So when did you order, what did you order, how much did you pay him and what timing was discussed?

Thanks

Kevin

PS You are right to question the iTrader thing. Its funny what behavior we are willing to approve when we feel the cause is "righteous".
 
Last edited:
ratcues said:
If you give a negative I-trader and had no dealings, a 3 days vacation is fair, BUT there is no way of knowing whether or not a transaction has taken place and when it took place. It turns into he said/she said.....
Click to expand...

Yeah you really can't expect the moderators to be invloved in making judgment calls on every transaction squabble that occurs here on AZ.

Thanks

Kevin
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
So in truth your question is

"If people that gave Kevin Varney negative trader points should
be banned"

Is this what you are trying to ask?

mrs.g
Click to expand...

NO.

I left all that out. Other people named names. I simply want to know what the RULES regarding iTrader are.

Plain and simple.

What's your opinion Mrs. G ???
 
ratcues said:
If you give a negative I-trader and had no dealings, a 3 days vacation is fair, BUT there is no way of knowing whether or not a transaction has taken place and when it took place. It turns into he said/she said.....
Click to expand...

TY for the opinion..... :smile:
 
kvinbrwr said:
Russ

You are a good man to do this, and we both know that AZ can do a character assassination on very little evidence and we have seen the community judge other people by much higher standards then we judge ourselves. Here's what I'll do if you will. Post your dealings with Varney, when you ordered, what he said, how it's going. I am of course very interested in what timing was discussed, etc, and we will see how it goes. If you are willing to do that (I'm assuming you don't have the cue you ordered yet) I'll be willing to judge KV solely by the one deal I have details I can trust on, yours. So when did you order, what did you order, how much did you pay him and what timing was discussed?

Thanks

Kevin

PS You are right to question the iTrader thing. Its funny what behavior we are willing to approve when we feel the cause is "righteous".
Click to expand...

Hi Kevin,

I appreciate and understand where you are going with this. Should I also include all those particulars on OTHER cue orders, where the cue maker didn't deliver anywhere close to the quoted date??? Or should we just ignore those ??

Russ....

Edited to add: When I deal with a custom cue maker, I ALWAYS, ALWAYS double the time I am quoted. That way I am not upset when that delivery date comes and goes, with no cue. I have done this with many makers, not just KV.
 
Last edited:
Gunn_Slinger said:
So in truth your question is

"If people that gave Kevin Varney negative trader points should
be banned"

Is this what you are trying to ask?

mrs.g
Click to expand...


I don't think that's at all what he's asking.

If someone gave him negative iTrader and they were in a transaction with him, then they are well within their right to use the iTrader system. That's what it's there for, right? Kevin has 4 total negative iTrader comments, and 2 of them are not in dispute. Those individuals were in a transaction with Kevin and didn't like their end of it. They used the system like it's supposed to be used.

The point in question is whether people that have no transactions with another person, should be able to leave any form of iTrader, negative or otherwise. That's what's happened here, and yes it just so happens that there were 2 of these left for Varney Cues.

So I'd ask your opinion on the original question, regardless of who is involved. "Should a member of AZ be banned or given a short vacation for giving out negative iTrader to another person that they have NOT ever dealt with??"

<<Edited.. Russ beat me to it (I type too slow). Originally, there were no names associated with this. Others added that and it just so happens that it involves Varney Cues >>



As far as what should happen when an iTrader is given when no transaction has taken place, I have an opinion which is inline with others in this thread and a vacation is warranted. But, that's up to the people that run the forum. I would just point out there has already been a precedent set for that very thing.

If everyone is allowed to give anyone an iTrader rating at will, it will become an abused system (and it obviously has). When that happens, what's the point of having iTrader at all?

Ratcues makes a compelling argument/statement: how to decipher whether or not a transaction has taken place and it becoming he said/she said. I agree with that. My argument to this would be to take the example that happened. If I had a transaction with someone whether on or off the forum, wouldn't it be logical to leave feedback based on MY transaction and not post a link to someone else's transaction? In my opinion, in this case it's obvious no transaction had taken place.
 
Last edited:
My opinion still stands, you can only give negative itrader if you are the one injured....

But, on another note, if a person has a bad transaction, they should be warned and must make it right.....if they have two bad transactions, they have to make it right and get a short vacation.....if they have 3, they get to peddle their goods elsewhere permanently.....and a bad transaction would be promising delivery of a cue in 2 months and delivering in 6 months....note, it's tough for moderators to monitor all this on any site....

Based on what is coming out, there are two sides to the issue here.....it doesn't look like somebody was just flamed from out of nowhere....
 
Require Thread Address

If the forums required a valid thread address (of the transaction being rated) in order to submit an iTrader, it will help to validate the rating. Since the iTrader is for deals done here on AZ only AZ deals should be rated. Not perfect but it may help when a rating is contested.
 
Irish634 said:
I don't think that's at all what he's asking.

If someone gave him negative iTrader and they were in a transaction with him, then they are well within their right to use the iTrader system. That's what it's there for, right? Kevin has 4 total negative iTrader comments, and 2 of them are not in dispute. Those individuals were in a transaction with Kevin and didn't like their end of it. They used the system like it's supposed to be used.

The point in question is whether people that have no transactions with another person, should be able to leave any form of iTrader, negative or otherwise. That's what's happened here, and yes it just so happens that there were 2 of these left for Varney Cues.

So I'd ask your opinion on the original question, regardless of who is involved. "Should a member of AZ be banned or given a short vacation for giving out negative iTrader to another person that they have NOT ever dealt with??"

<<Edited.. Russ beat me to it (I type too slow). Originally, there were no names associated with this. Others added that and it just so happens that it involes Varney Cues >>



As far as what should happen when an iTrader is given when no transaction has taken place, I have an opinion which is inline with others in this thread and a vacation is warranted. But, that's up to the people that run the forum. I would just point out there has already been a precedent set for that very thing.

If everyone is allowed to give anyone an iTrader rating at will, it will become an abused system (and it obviously has). When that happens, what's the point of having iTrader at all?

Ratcues makes a compelling argument/statement: how to decipher whether or not a transaction has taken place and it becoming he said/she said. I agree with that. My argument to this would be to take the example that happened. If I had a transaction with someone whether on or off the forum, wouldn't it be logical to leave feedback based on MY transaction and not post a link to someone else's transaction? In my opinion, in this case it's obvious no transaction had taken place.
Click to expand...

Exactly!!!!

Pretty simple:

1. What/where are the rules regarding iTrader?

2. What happens to those who abuse the system?

Thanks,

Russ.......
 
Peter 808 said:
If the forums required a valid thread address (of the transaction being rated) in order to submit an iTrader, it will help to validate the rating. Since the iTrader is for deals done here on AZ only AZ deals should be rated. Not perfect but it may help when a rating is contested.
Click to expand...

That is a good idea.
 
Russ,

Here's my take on this:

Rep is and will always be an emotional response based on our behavior and content (negative or positive) in a given thread, and should be treated as such. Green or Red may depend on what day it is.

iTrader was created so all AZB'rs can get a realistic picture of who they decide to deal with through this forum. This should be based on fact describing a transaction between only the two members involved.

If iTrader is abused because of something other than a transaction between the two members, that is a misuse of the system and they should be warned, at least. And the mods should be able to remove that false entry. If they continue to misuse the system, they should be given a nice long vacation.

I'm not sure if there is a rule about this as you originally asked, but there should be.

Dave
 
poolhustler said:
Hi Kevin,

I appreciate and understand where you are going with this. Should I also include all those particulars on OTHER cue orders, where the cue maker didn't deliver anywhere close to the quoted date??? Or should we just ignore those ??

Russ....

Edited to add: When I deal with a custom cue maker, I ALWAYS, ALWAYS double the time I am quoted. That way I am not upset when that delivery date comes and goes, with no cue. I have done this with many makers, not just KV.
Click to expand...

Russ

You have more tolerance for "cue maker time" than I do as I am very spoiled in that regard. Tad was the same way (for me) as Ernie is now, every time limit he was willing to set with me he met, as does Ernie. Other than those 2, I can't think of another guy that I had personal experience with that didn't operate within their own hidden time frame, for me Schrager was a classic in this regard. I think guys like Barry or Searing avoid it all together by just not quoting you a time at all.

However, a guy being slow or over promising on production times is not stealing, being hopeful about your time frames is not stealing, but, if one takes money making promises he knows he can't keep when he takes your money is sort of stealing in a way. I wouldn't want to have to me in the cue maker's head to judge if his slowness is just slowness or is it misrepresentation from the start? Is misrepresentation stealing?

You are right about the iTrader thing. If you want to out a guy, do it another way, that's part of (too much IMO) what we use the forums for. But you know we are pool players and we all make moves with systems and just like Rep, we are going to make moves with iTrader and again, I don't think the mods will be inclined to police the iTrader system with rules and punishments.

Maybe you could start a thread now, listing your agreement and expectations and progress to date. Give KV a chance to clear his name through his deal with you. It might be an interesting thread as most KV threads are after the fact and yours could be an ongoing (and hopefully not never ending) saga. I'm thinking you may be of the opinion that KV has been branded as a sinner here in AZland over simple cue maker slowness of time and maybe you feel his sins are no greater than that of most cue makers. Maybe you are right.

You are for sure right about the iTrader thing, posting a negative about a transaction that never happened is a sin. What's the punishment? Shucks, I dunno.

Thanks

Kevin
 
Last edited:
I believe in gun control thats why I use two hands, problem solved. :rolleyes:
 
poolhustler said:
Should a member of AZ be banned or given a short vacation for giving out negative iTrader to another person that they have NOT ever dealt with??

Are there rules from the mgmt on this??

Opinions please.

Ty,

Russ.....
Click to expand...



Russ,

I didnt read the whole thread, if it was a accident-then I see nor problem, if it was someone being a ****off, then its up to the mods.

I'd guess that 99.9999% of us here know your a stand up guy on all levels, but no, i'm not loaning you a Lambo for the weekend.:wink::wink: Seriously i'd be pissed too, Ask Mr. Wilson perhaps he can sort it out.

your buddy
eric

PS: I hope everything is working out for you.
 
Last edited:
Fatboy said:
Russ,

I didnt read the whole thread, if it was a accident-then I see nor problem, if it was someone being a ****off, then its up to the mods.

I'd guess that 99.9999% of us here know your a stand up guy on all levels, but no, i'm not loaning you a Lambo for the weekend.:wink::wink: Seriously i'd be pissed too, Ask Mr. Wilson perhaps he can sort it out.

your buddy
eric

PS: I hope everything is working out for you.
Click to expand...

FatBoy

Please PM me your digits.

Thanks

Kevin

PS I know times are tough. Is Burgers for Barrys in effect yet? If so let me know and I'll stop by Fat Burger on the way.
 
kvinbrwr said:
Russ

You have more tolerance for "cue maker time" than I do as I am very spoiled in that regard. Tad was the same way (for me) as Ernie is now, every time limit he was willing to set with me he met, as does Ernie. Other than those 2, I can't think of another guy that I had personal experience with that didn't operate within their own hidden time frame, for me Schrager was a classic in this regard. I think guys like Barry or Searing avoid it all together by just not quoting you a time at all.

However, a guy being slow or over promising on production times is not stealing, being hopeful about your time frames is not stealing, but, if one takes money making promises he knows he can't keep when he takes your money is sort of stealing in a way. I wouldn't want to have to me in the cue maker's head to judge if his slowness is just slowness or is it misrepresentation from the start? Is misrepresentation stealing?

You are right about the iTrader thing. If you want to out a guy, do it another way, that's part of (too much IMO) what we use the forums for. But you know we are pool players and we all make moves with systems and just like Rep, we are going to make moves with iTrader and again, I don't think the mods will be inclined to police the iTrader system with rules and punishments.

Maybe you could start a thread now, listing your agreement and expectations and progress to date. Give KV a chance to clear his name through his deal with you. It might be an interesting thread as most KV threads are after the fact and yours could be an ongoing (and hopefully not never ending) saga. I'm thinking you may be of the opinion that KV has been branded as a sinner here in AZland over simple cue maker slowness of time and maybe you feel his sins are no greater than that of most cue makers. Maybe you are right.

You are for sure right about the iTrader thing, posting a negative about a transaction that never happened is a sin. What's the punishment? Shucks, I dunno.

Thanks

Kevin
Click to expand...

Pool Players... hmmmmmmmm......... Enough Said!!!!! :rolleyes:
 
poolhustler said:
NO.

I left all that out. Other people named names. I simply want to know what the RULES regarding iTrader are.

Plain and simple.

What's your opinion Mrs. G ???
Click to expand...

I really think it's a different case for everyone.

There was a cue maker on here that shafted many
members of the board. He also came on the board
and said horrid things to other members.

Do I believe he should have bad itrader put on him?

The answer to that is yes, he was a bad boy and
everyone should have given him bad rep and bad itrader
so in the future other people would not also been shafted.

I can't recall his whole name I just recall the name wheat.
He made a lot of pain for people and in my thoughts, got
all the bad karma for being so mean to the nice folks that
tried to help him out.

So to get to the point. Yes I believe if someone has shafted
members they should state it on the itrader comment. If the
comments are not true then the person giving them should
have the itrader taken away from them. IF the comments are
true is it not a warning for others to take actions to protect
themselves for a bad deal?

Man I am just a talkie talkie today.

mrs.g
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top