Opinions wanted yet again.... Ki-Techs...

Smoke said:
I no longer use your tips because I bought some mediums and then you go and change them.
If I ever try them in the future, I will wait till you are done testing them out.
I want a tip that is the same a yr from now.
Click to expand...

Can completely understand your position... We did firm the medium up slightly by altering the hardener/elastomer ratio about a year ago... While I feel that it was an improvement it was a change.... I had played with another change to the medium 5 months ago but decided no more changes to the currrent versions that are more than aesthetic in nature which is why I am looking at adding grades instead of modifying existing grades.....

Chris
 
thubosky said:
Hey Chris,

I'd love to try a medium/hard and my buddy would be suited for a soft/medium because he had a medium and he thought it was too hard for him by just a little bit. So maybe you'd have a market for both. Because I love the energy from the hard but at times could use just a little more grip. The mediums are a great tip too. Also send those break tips out when ya get a chance! Ps my friend and I are very critical so he will for surely be able to tell what he likes and doesn't like about the tip.
Thanks,
Tim
Click to expand...

We have all been waiting to try out "Solid" for quite awhile already. :(
 
Smoke said:
I no longer use your tips because I bought some mediums and then you go and change them.
If I ever try them in the future, I will wait till you are done testing them out.
I want a tip that is the same a yr from now.
Click to expand...

Agree with this poster for a few reasons. It's expensive to go thru multiple tip replacements in order to test many different ones, especially if you have to pay to have them installed. Once you find one you like, they go and change it? Leave what's been marketed alone if your customers like it and you're building a base of customers, and instead add other options. Don't get someone hooked on a product, then change it, just to change it. Maybe i'll revise my earlier post and go with...'add the other two options'.

I have to say, I read all of your posts on your product lines and keep waiting for them to be available to try, but I've never pulled the trigger on purchasing any yet because you're constantly changing and revising everything. I can appreciate the approach of being meticulous to get it just right, but sooner or later many folks will just go with another product line after getting tired of waiting so long for yours to be finished and made available. Think of it this way...there's nothing worse than waiting patiently for a very long time for a product, let's say for example a car, to be available and then the manufacturer retools it the following year and yours is immediately outdated.
 
Nullus said:
Agree with this poster for a few reasons. It's expensive to go thru multiple tip replacements in order to test many different ones, especially if you have to pay to have them installed. Once you find one you like, they go and change it? Leave what's been marketed alone if your customers like it and you're building a base of customers, and instead add other options. Don't get someone hooked on a product, then change it, just to change it. Maybe i'll revise my earlier post and go with...'add the other two options'.

I have to say, I read all of your posts on your product lines and keep waiting for them to be available to try, but I've never pulled the trigger on purchasing any yet because you're constantly changing and revising everything. I can appreciate the approach of being meticulous to get it just right, but sooner or later many folks will just go with another product line after getting tired of waiting so long for yours to be finished and made available. Think of it this way...there's nothing worse than waiting patiently for a very long time for a product, let's say for example a car, to be available and then the manufacturer retools it the following year and yours is immediately outdated.
Click to expand...

Is there actually a change in Chris's current tips line up? :confused:
 
Nullus said:
Agree with this poster for a few reasons. It's expensive to go thru multiple tip replacements in order to test many different ones, especially if you have to pay to have them installed. Once you find one you like, they go and change it? Leave what's been marketed alone if your customers like it and you're building a base of customers, and instead add other options. Don't get someone hooked on a product, then change it, just to change it. Maybe i'll revise my earlier post and go with...'add the other two options'.

I have to say, I read all of your posts on your product lines and keep waiting for them to be available to try, but I've never pulled the trigger on purchasing any yet because you're constantly changing and revising everything. I can appreciate the approach of being meticulous to get it just right, but sooner or later many folks will just go with another product line after getting tired of waiting so long for yours to be finished and made available. Think of it this way...there's nothing worse than waiting patiently for a very long time for a product, let's say for example a car, to be available and then the manufacturer retools it the following year and yours is immediately outdated.
Click to expand...

I agree completely with the above post ... If you can not establish consistency in the product line, what have you really created?
 
Agent 99 said:
I agree completely with the above post ... If you can not establish consistency in the product line, what have you really created?
Click to expand...

The last change was over a year ago.. That change was to the medium only.. I took the COR up from 60 to 63.... The soft and hard have been the same for over 2 years... There will be no more changes to any grades aside from aesthetics...... I will simply add to the line instead of modifying the existing tips going forward....

I can still make the original medium for anyone out there like Smoke who bought over a year ago and likes them..

I had not considered that possibility as 3% points didn't seem like it was going to be anything other than a small tweak and I doubted anyone would notice the difference unless they could hit them side by side..

My understanding is that Smoke heard there was a change so decided against continuing the use... I do not think he tried the new medium and disliked it or felt it wasn't the same tip. I think he simply didn't like the fact that there had been a change and he felt that what he had was going to be way different than what he would get if he reordered.....

I have tons of reorders from the last several years and have yet to have someone come back and ask me what I had done to the medium to change it as the only place I can see the difference is on the COR tester... I had swapped the mediums out on one of my playing shafts after the change and on the table I really didn't notice much in the way of perceived difference....

I was an original morri medium guy and stopped trying them about moori3 or 4 since they were not the same from version to version... I do not intend to make any changes that drastically change the performance which is why the COR tester was developed... I wanted a way to test the tips for consistency so that you could depend on getting the same tip each time you purchased.....

As far as delays on the break tips and chalk... It's a function of cost as much as getting things perfect... If I order labels and they aren't right I eat the cost and have to pass that on... If I roll out the "Solid" before it's ready I am stuck with inventory that is not going to move off the shelf...

As what we create are consumables I will have to fade people going to other products while they wait... Eventually their break tip wears out or pops off.. Their chalk wears down to nothing and it's time to order again... Their playing tip has to be replaced... Their rack template can only take so much abuse.... I'd like to think that our attempts to only bring quality products to market will earn us a shot when these things happen....

One of the things I like about AZ is feedback from the members... Market research is a hard thing to come by in this industry... I appreciate all of the comments and the book is closed on the Soft Medium and Hard... I'll work on the MS and MH and add them for the people who fall between our existing grades.....

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
The last change was over a year ago.. That change was to the medium only.. I took the COR up from 60 to 63.... The soft and hard have been the same for over 2 years... There will be no more changes to any grades aside from aesthetics...... I will simply add to the line instead of modifying the existing tips going forward....

I can still make the original medium for anyone out there like Smoke who bought over a year ago and likes them..

I had not considered that possibility as 3% points didn't seem like it was going to be anything other than a small tweak and I doubted anyone would notice the difference unless they could hit them side by side..

My understanding is that Smoke heard there was a change so decided against continuing the use... I do not think he tried the new medium and disliked it or felt it wasn't the same tip. I think he simply didn't like the fact that there had been a change and he felt that what he had was going to be way different than what he would get if he reordered.....

I have tons of reorders from the last several years and have yet to have someone come back and ask me what I had done to the medium to change it as the only place I can see the difference is on the COR tester... I had swapped the mediums out on one of my playing shafts after the change and on the table I really didn't notice much in the way of perceived difference....

I was an original morri medium guy and stopped trying them about moori3 or 4 since they were not the same from version to version... I do not intend to make any changes that drastically change the performance which is why the COR tester was developed... I wanted a way to test the tips for consistency so that you could depend on getting the same tip each time you purchased.....

As far as delays on the break tips and chalk... It's a function of cost as much as getting things perfect... If I order labels and they aren't right I eat the cost and have to pass that on... If I roll out the "Solid" before it's ready I am stuck with inventory that is not going to move off the shelf...

As what we create are consumables I will have to fade people going to other products while they wait... Eventually their break tip wears out or pops off.. Their chalk wears down to nothing and it's time to order again... Their playing tip has to be replaced... Their rack template can only take so much abuse.... I'd like to think that our attempts to only bring quality products to market will earn us a shot when these things happen....

One of the things I like about AZ is feedback from the members... Market research is a hard thing to come by in this industry... I appreciate all of the comments and the book is closed on the Soft Medium and Hard... I'll work on the MS and MH and add them for the people who fall between our existing grades.....

Chris
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good plan, Chris .. I have to say again your tips produce spin better than any tip I have ever used. I highly recommend Ki-Tech to anyone looking for more spin at any stroke speed.

With a Ki-Tech I can make the cue ball look like a drag car racing down the table .. LOL

If I ever get control of it I will play John Force for anything he wants. :D
 
The Renfro said:
After running tests over the course of the last few weeks on lots of different tips I noticed trends in COR.. Soft tips usually fell between 50 and 58% energy transfer... Medium 58 to 65% and Hard ran from 62% to 73%....

I went back and looked at the transfer rates on the Ki-Techs and saw a large gap between the grades we offered....

Since the Ki-Techs do not really harden up the gap is going to stay there so if our soft is too soft you can't just beat on it to get it to a medium.....

My question is would you offer medium/soft and medium/hard to bridge the gaps or would you stick with the old soft/medium/hard plan...

My actual thought is to leave the gap between the hard and medium and add a medium/soft dead between the soft and medium....

I do have a single layered extra hard that is suited for a break tip that comes in at 80% but no one has really liked it for a playing tip so I am thinking it will be one of several break tip options we should have out by the US Open.....

My thoughts on the gap between the medium and hard is that it is smaller than the soft to medium gap and hard tip users tend to want as much transfer as possible with the tip still getting a ton of grip... That we have.....

Knowing we are a small company would you offer another playing tip while working on the break tips or would you wait for the market to ask for it? I am a soft user.... I never would have bet that would have happened as I was playing with synthetic hards when this started... I just took the medium/soft down for testing and I am super interested in trying it... Dunno how many other Ki-tech users or folks that tried them and hated them would be interested......

I'll do a drawing and send 20 people that say they are interested a free medium/soft in North America.... Just post what you are using here and that you are interested.... I will send 1 tip USPS no tracking and it will make it or not... If you want to track the package after your name is drawn, paypal for $3 will get you tracking.. As a note I have only ever had 1 package not delivered without tracking here in the US....

If you are overseas and still want to be included you have to pay shipping if you win.... Otherwise I will draw another person......

Will be doing a "blow out" sale this weekend... The Mustang had a blow out and I have no clue what a set of tires is gonna be but it wasn't in the budget after buying an industrial press this week......

Chris
Click to expand...

There are plenty of tip companies that offer just the 3 standard hardness ratings, and those actually change quite a bit with use. Yours does not. My Soft still feels like a Soft, and amazingly I have not had to burnish the thing to fix mushrooming once since putting it on months ago.

BTW, Mustang tires will probably be $150+ a pop depending on how high performance you are going and what model Mustang. I just peeked on the tire rack site. For an OEM tire for a 2012 GT (don't know what you have), the 18" tire is exactly $150.
 
Smoke said:
I no longer use your tips because I bought some mediums and then you go and change them.
If I ever try them in the future, I will wait till you are done testing them out.
I want a tip that is the same a yr from now.
Click to expand...

Seems like the change was 0.5%. Did you really notice that?

After using a Kamui Black Soft which I though was great, I found that the Ki-Tech Soft tips not only feel like a true Soft, they maintain the shape and hardness rating better than any tip I can remember in over 20 years of playing.

You should try them again.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Seems like the change was 0.5%. Did you really notice that?
Click to expand...

You put the decimal in the wrong place. It's actually a 5% change. But here is a thought to keep in mind. If the change was not enough that could be noticed, there would not have been any point in making the change.
 
Just put a Med on my playing cue and a soft on my friends cue. I have to say that I have never had a tip maintain it's shape as well the Ki-Tech's. Great product and I will be ordering more as well as the chalk and probably an Accu Rak as well... :)
 
The Renfro said:
The last change was over a year ago.. That change was to the medium only.. I took the COR up from 60 to 63.... The soft and hard have been the same for over 2 years... There will be no more changes to any grades aside from aesthetics...... I will simply add to the line instead of modifying the existing tips going forward....

I can still make the original medium for anyone out there like Smoke who bought over a year ago and likes them..

I had not considered that possibility as 3% points didn't seem like it was going to be anything other than a small tweak and I doubted anyone would notice the difference unless they could hit them side by side..

My understanding is that Smoke heard there was a change so decided against continuing the use... I do not think he tried the new medium and disliked it or felt it wasn't the same tip. I think he simply didn't like the fact that there had been a change and he felt that what he had was going to be way different than what he would get if he reordered.....

I have tons of reorders from the last several years and have yet to have someone come back and ask me what I had done to the medium to change it as the only place I can see the difference is on the COR tester... I had swapped the mediums out on one of my playing shafts after the change and on the table I really didn't notice much in the way of perceived difference....

I was an original morri medium guy and stopped trying them about moori3 or 4 since they were not the same from version to version... I do not intend to make any changes that drastically change the performance which is why the COR tester was developed... I wanted a way to test the tips for consistency so that you could depend on getting the same tip each time you purchased.....

As far as delays on the break tips and chalk... It's a function of cost as much as getting things perfect... If I order labels and they aren't right I eat the cost and have to pass that on... If I roll out the "Solid" before it's ready I am stuck with inventory that is not going to move off the shelf...

As what we create are consumables I will have to fade people going to other products while they wait... Eventually their break tip wears out or pops off.. Their chalk wears down to nothing and it's time to order again... Their playing tip has to be replaced... Their rack template can only take so much abuse.... I'd like to think that our attempts to only bring quality products to market will earn us a shot when these things happen....

One of the things I like about AZ is feedback from the members... Market research is a hard thing to come by in this industry... I appreciate all of the comments and the book is closed on the Soft Medium and Hard... I'll work on the MS and MH and add them for the people who fall between our existing grades.....

Chris
Click to expand...

I think the point you're missing is that in constantly making changes, it requires players/customers to constantly try something new because what they preferred is no longer available and while some of us don't mind that and like to try new products, it can be expensive at times and for folks that like to find something and stick with it, it can be a complete negative. I understand you, from a business standpoint can only gain more revenue by folks having to buy more new products, but it's a delicate balance you'll have to try to hold, especially in a sport that struggles off and on frequently, and where you have an awful lot of competition with other tips available that have been steady and haven't changed for many years.

Please don't get me wrong, I love following all of your research and all. I'm just not sure changing a product like a tip over and over is a good thing, market wise. It's not a product like chalk that you can, as a player, change on the fly. Tips are much more costly and cost again to have installed in most cases. It also creates downtime with your cue if your cuemaker isn't readily available. You want feedback, mine would be, figure out what you want to do with your tips, do it, and stop messing with them. They already seem to have a fan base started. Let it build, and focus your desire to fiddle with something on a different product. Changing a tip for a 3% gain on a meter somewhere probably isn't a real good marketing idea for the larger part of a customer base. If you do make such a minor change, then make it but don't make a big deal of it publicly where folks will say...."the product has changed, time to try something else". You're just giving them the incentive to try something else at that point. Hope some of this makes sense to you.

(As a side note I recently started trying some new tips since I've had some down time from leagues and tournaments, and I've yet to try yours because of this very same reasoning. I'm waiting for you to put one out there and say "this is it, it's finished".)
 
Last edited:
The Renfro said:
After running tests over the course of the last few weeks on lots of different tips I noticed trends in COR.. Soft tips usually fell between 50 and 58% energy transfer... Medium 58 to 65% and Hard ran from 62% to 73%....

I went back and looked at the transfer rates on the Ki-Techs and saw a large gap between the grades we offered....

Since the Ki-Techs do not really harden up the gap is going to stay there so if our soft is too soft you can't just beat on it to get it to a medium.....

My question is would you offer medium/soft and medium/hard to bridge the gaps or would you stick with the old soft/medium/hard plan...

My actual thought is to leave the gap between the hard and medium and add a medium/soft dead between the soft and medium....

I do have a single layered extra hard that is suited for a break tip that comes in at 80% but no one has really liked it for a playing tip so I am thinking it will be one of several break tip options we should have out by the US Open.....

My thoughts on the gap between the medium and hard is that it is smaller than the soft to medium gap and hard tip users tend to want as much transfer as possible with the tip still getting a ton of grip... That we have.....

Knowing we are a small company would you offer another playing tip while working on the break tips or would you wait for the market to ask for it? I am a soft user.... I never would have bet that would have happened as I was playing with synthetic hards when this started... I just took the medium/soft down for testing and I am super interested in trying it... Dunno how many other Ki-tech users or folks that tried them and hated them would be interested......

I'll do a drawing and send 20 people that say they are interested a free medium/soft in North America.... Just post what you are using here and that you are interested.... I will send 1 tip USPS no tracking and it will make it or not... If you want to track the package after your name is drawn, paypal for $3 will get you tracking.. As a note I have only ever had 1 package not delivered without tracking here in the US....

If you are overseas and still want to be included you have to pay shipping if you win.... Otherwise I will draw another person......

Will be doing a "blow out" sale this weekend... The Mustang had a blow out and I have no clue what a set of tires is gonna be but it wasn't in the budget after buying an industrial press this week......

Chris
Click to expand...

If you can figure out why my card won't work on your site I will help out buying tips so you can "retip" the mustangs rims.
Or I can send a check or money order. Up to you.
I don't want a free tip, so don't pick me.
 
measureman said:
If you can figure out why my card won't work on your site I will help out buying tips so you can "retip" the mustangs rims.
Or I can send a check or money order. Up to you.
I don't want a free tip, so don't pick me.
Click to expand...

Haha Bruce... I will ship your tips tomorrow... mail me a check or money order back when they get there...
 
Here is the toy I spent my mad money on before I blew the tire.....
I thought it was a brake when I saw it but after closer inspection it's flat bedded at around 10tons... I can add a few rams and run a secondary valve to different hydraulic lines and maybe get it to 40 based on the amount of overbuilding they did.....

$_12.JPG

Little more work area and press surface area than what I had cobbled together..... This weekend is going to be about organizing the basement... Have a South Bend 42" Lathe and this monster needing to find places out of the way... Will mean I have to finish the backing on my slates... Guess that will be one step closer to getting my table back together......
 
How many tips can this press at a go? :confused:

The Renfro said:
Here is the toy I spent my mad money on before I blew the tire.....
I thought it was a brake when I saw it but after closer inspection it's flat bedded at around 10tons... I can add a few rams and run a secondary valve to different hydraulic lines and maybe get it to 40 based on the amount of overbuilding they did.....

View attachment 347530

Little more work area and press surface area than what I had cobbled together..... This weekend is going to be about organizing the basement... Have a South Bend 42" Lathe and this monster needing to find places out of the way... Will mean I have to finish the backing on my slates... Guess that will be one step closer to getting my table back together......
Click to expand...
 
I'd be interested in trying the extra hard actually...

Is it the same formula you gave me at the Derby?? I've actually been using one of those for the last 4 months if so
 
ddadams said:
I'd be interested in trying the extra hard actually...

Is it the same formula you gave me at the Derby?? I've actually been using one of those for the last 4 months if so
Click to expand...

yeah the extra hard is the break version.... I am doing it in water buffalo this week end and will make up my mind on the final "Solid" Leather Break tip this coming week.... Will depend on which version, cowhide or water buffalo, has the higher COR rating... I intended on extended the testing to include smaller and smaller fiber sizes but that testing would culminate in a leather powder based phenolic and would have none of the resilience found in the material naturally so this is the last go around.....

I still have 2 more synthetics I am looking at for our synthetic offering... But no point in holding off on the leather version any more...

The medium/soft test run will be done as well over the week end... I will be very surprised if I have to do more than this test run as it is coming on the back of everything that came before.... I will likely be within 1 point on COR of what I am looking for if my calculations are right....

I thought you said the extra hard didn't have enough bite for a playing tip? LOL
 
The Renfro said:
yeah the extra hard is the break version.... I am doing it in water buffalo this week end and will make up my mind on the final "Solid" Leather Break tip this coming week.... Will depend on which version, cowhide or water buffalo, has the higher COR rating... I intended on extended the testing to include smaller and smaller fiber sizes but that testing would culminate in a leather powder based phenolic and would have none of the resilience found in the material naturally so this is the last go around.....

I still have 2 more synthetics I am looking at for our synthetic offering... But no point in holding off on the leather version any more...

The medium/soft test run will be done as well over the week end... I will be very surprised if I have to do more than this test run as it is coming on the back of everything that came before.... I will likely be within 1 point on COR of what I am looking for if my calculations are right....

I thought you said the extra hard didn't have enough bite for a playing tip? LOL
Click to expand...


I accidently had one from the Derby put on one of my shafts and it just stuck LOL


My stroke has gotten unbelievably better since the DCC thanks to actually using what Lee Brett taught me and I've gotten quite straight because of it.

Now the extra hard feels perfect LOL...


Chris please hit me up when you got a spare break tip and chalk too

I need about 20 tips, a break tip, and some chalk to try.
 
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