It would never be a good idea to use a touch of inside or outside on a long straight in. In most cases, I think your always better off shooting with as level a cue as you can over jacking up when your close to the rail or pocket.
Opinions?
- Thread starter ENGLISH!
- Start date
It would never be a good idea to use a touch of inside or outside on a long straight in. In most cases, I think your always better off shooting with as level a cue as you can over jacking up when your close to the rail or pocket.
I agree with you except for 'never' shooting a 'straight' in shot with english. I often do. I've been doing it for many, many, years. It's not that hard. How else does one change the CB path significantly on a 'straight' in shot? You cheat the pocket to one side & use english to further alter the CB path. I do do it with a nearly level cue. It is a very valuable technique for getting certain position that would not be readily obtained without it. I can not understand why so many seem to be afraid of it unless they have been brainwashed to be afraid of it. Maybe you can explain that to me.
I do not think I would continue to play for very long, if one day, I could no longer enjoy the results of using english. Although, I am going to give CJ Wiley's TOI a good go after I finish the league I'm now playing, but I doubt I will ever totally abandon the use of english when needed.
Regards,
I know EXACTLY what you mean. Juicing the CB can be a thing of beauty and can accomplish shape that can be obtained in no other way...except of course PERFECT position play on every single shot! (-:
I had a buddy who BUSTED his drives 280...back in the day when that was monstrous distance. Trouble is, he sprayed every third one into the bushes.
I told him if he'd just back off on his swing speed, he'd have a lot better scrore. To which he responded that if he couldn't hit his drives that way he'd quit the game in a heartbeat.
And with great respect to all TOI advocates....as those who have tried it know it takes a LOT of precision to pull it off. Well, if you can be that precise with TOI you can be just as precise with TOS (tons of spin) as anyone who has ever watched Reyes play knows for a fact.
Having said that, I am going to buy CJs video because it would be another great arrow in the quiver... and I would want to use TOI if I have layouts that don't require juice because I was on my game that day sufficiently to control the CB well and MAKE the layout straight forward enough to "shoot and float" all the way around.
For all other days there is the beauty and salvation of TOS.
(-:
EagleMan
EagleMan,
Can you explain to me why it seems so many are so afraid of a little spin.
Have they been brainwashed into total fear when they should learn it & use it sparingly until they are comfortable with it.
I know of no great player that could not use spin when they had to or wanted to use it for a breakout, etc.
Thanks in advance...I think,
Can you explain to me why it seems so many are so afraid of a little spin.
Have they been brainwashed into total fear when they should learn it & use it sparingly until they are comfortable with it.
I know of no great player that could not use spin when they had to or wanted to use it for a breakout, etc.
Thanks in advance...I think,
I spin the ball more than anyone I've ever seen play. I will also shoot long straight in shots with anyone that uses side spin on these shots. If you noticed CJ says a toi except for straight in. Also, no one is trying to cheat the pockets on long straight in's on anything but buckets. I think you have mistaken me for someone who can't play and now have me curious to your speed?
I'll try. First, I don't think too many are afraid of a "little spin" but of a LOT of spin...and for good reason.
The farther you get off the vertical center the more somthing other than "straight roll down the target line" and other issues related to spin come into play.
TONS of interest in CJ's TOI approach which I haven't studied yet but certaily will. But I would guess that at least one of the benefits of TOI is reducing spin-related variables and therefore, simplyfying the shots.
There is much to be said for simplifying.
But I certainly agree with you that some of the greatest players in history...including Reyes obviously...were MASTERS of SPIN. And spin is FUN and spin can save your bacon over and over again.
But with slower speed players...I BEG them to shoot their next ONE THOUSAND SHOTS with ZERO spin. Tip contact ONLY allowed in the vertical centerline. So you can play stun/stop/follow all you want but ZERO spin.
Why? Because if the lesser skilled players use side they CANNOT KNOW FOR SURE why they missed and they end up chasing their tails thinking their aim was wrong when they missed due to squirt...then thinking they missed due to squirt when their aim was wrong.
But once they have improved their mechanics and CONSISTENCY (and yes, accuracy because you have to be JUST as "accurate" to deliver the tip to the vertical center as anywhere else on the CB) then adding a LITTLE side and then when you're deadly with that amount...a little more...is fine with me...but ONLY fine for those fairly rare (top 25%) players who have exceptional eye-hand coordination.
People who don't should stay as close to center as they can...and study up on CJ's TOI.
Or, just spin for FUN and to hell with the rest of it!!!!!
OK?
EagleMan
Interesting.
I too have no idea what your 'speed' is either & I was not mistaking you for someone that can't play.
I was agreeing with you except for 'never' (please note that I but 'never' in single quotes) & I repeat 'never' shooting a 'straight' in shot, again I believe I put single quotes around straight, with no spin.
I'm sorry if I offended you in some way. (interesting timing)
I have been shooting straight & nearly straight in shots with CJ's TOI very well. You can even aim to one side a bit & deflect/squirt the cue ball to the other side a bit.
I have been cheating pockets for more than 45 years. CJ's TOI is 'cheating' the pocket. Why would you think that you can cheat a pocket on a cut shot & not on a 'straight' in shot? How else do you change the angle on the cue ball for position? Are you a slave to a straight in shot?
Again, I am sorry if I offended you.
Have a good evening,
Afraid of spin?
EagleMan,
Thanks for your explantion. I disagree a bit, but I understand your points & logic from your perspective of being a retired instructor.
I have coached the major three(3) sports from 5 years old to adults, as well as a bit of golf, & was offered a job coaching tennis when I was too young to 'real eyes' that I should have accepted the offer. I have found that one does not know one's ability or that of one that one is coaching if one holds back.
An example: I will never know if a baseball player is capable of hitting home runs if I never let him swing a home run swing in practice but only teach him to punch the ball to just put it in play. Same with golf, if someone is capable of working the ball both ways, (much harder with the new balls) why would I make them try to just hit 'straight' balls instead of working on 'perfecting' the control of moving the ball both ways?
Earl Strickland practiced for 16 hours a day every day when he was 16 yrs. old. I doubt that he never spun the ball during that time frame. I know there are not too many Earl Stricklands & the like but my point is you will never know who has the talent if they are not 'allowed' to try.
How many might be out there right now stuck on mediocrity because someone told them, you can't do that until you hit the center of the ball 3,000 times when there is no real need to hit the center of the ball if you know another way that is just as effective if not more so.
As to your point regarding knowing why they miss, they probably never really do. Was it their aim or did they hit slightly off center? Are they going to play with a practice ball all of the time & check it for center hit after every shot?
I just feel & think that one should learn about english & how to use it as soon as possible. Not too long ago I coached a middle aged mentally challenged man to win a game of call your exact shot 8 ball against his mentally normal friend using english on more than half his shots. It's just not that hard. How much one uses it is up to them & their success...or failure with it.
Sorry for spouting off but something got me started.
Regards & Best Wishes to All, Sincerely,
EagleMan,
Thanks for your explantion. I disagree a bit, but I understand your points & logic from your perspective of being a retired instructor.
I have coached the major three(3) sports from 5 years old to adults, as well as a bit of golf, & was offered a job coaching tennis when I was too young to 'real eyes' that I should have accepted the offer. I have found that one does not know one's ability or that of one that one is coaching if one holds back.
An example: I will never know if a baseball player is capable of hitting home runs if I never let him swing a home run swing in practice but only teach him to punch the ball to just put it in play. Same with golf, if someone is capable of working the ball both ways, (much harder with the new balls) why would I make them try to just hit 'straight' balls instead of working on 'perfecting' the control of moving the ball both ways?
Earl Strickland practiced for 16 hours a day every day when he was 16 yrs. old. I doubt that he never spun the ball during that time frame. I know there are not too many Earl Stricklands & the like but my point is you will never know who has the talent if they are not 'allowed' to try.
How many might be out there right now stuck on mediocrity because someone told them, you can't do that until you hit the center of the ball 3,000 times when there is no real need to hit the center of the ball if you know another way that is just as effective if not more so.
As to your point regarding knowing why they miss, they probably never really do. Was it their aim or did they hit slightly off center? Are they going to play with a practice ball all of the time & check it for center hit after every shot?
I just feel & think that one should learn about english & how to use it as soon as possible. Not too long ago I coached a middle aged mentally challenged man to win a game of call your exact shot 8 ball against his mentally normal friend using english on more than half his shots. It's just not that hard. How much one uses it is up to them & their success...or failure with it.
Sorry for spouting off but something got me started.
Regards & Best Wishes to All, Sincerely,
Last edited:
I don't think you're "spouting off" at all. This is an interesting and IMPORTANT topic.
(-:
EagleMan
I don't understand how it's possible to shoot without a bridge or apply english with a bridge. Or probably I don't understand what you're talking about.
I don't understand how it's possible to shoot without a bridge or apply english with a bridge. Or probably I don't understand what you're talking about.
Mad,
He's referring to bridging on the pocket as the cue ball was only about 4" from the pocket & I stated that you pretty much had to bridge on it or as I did farther back from off of the table frame to get the cue stick as low as possible.
Reagrds,
Big difference on cheating the pocket on cut shots compared to a long straight in like you were talking about with the cueball by the pocket. You didn't offend me, you just have me curious to the speed you play, when you make comments like cheating the pocket on super tough shots.
Hey, I did not say I would never mis (especially since my eye injury), but I'll make enough of them to make it a very viable option. Remember I chose to slow roll this one with a 12:00 high hit for the win. If it was not for the win or lose type shot & I would have needed to change the cue ball angle for the next shot I would certainly give shooting it with english or CJ's TOI all due consideration.
About 6 or 7 weeks while I was playing around with TOI, I wound up with a very similiar shot on the ball before the 8 ball with the 8 ball blocking nearly 1/2 the pocket on a bar table. I shot it with the TOI by aiming it outside the pocket & squirted the CB to cut it into the open side of the pocket & then followed with the 8 in the same pocket for the win. The TOI gives me another option to english. It's not that hard because it is all there right in front of you including the pocket. It allows you to fine tune it because you can see it all so easily in that 'staight' line CB, OB, & the pocket. Naturally this shot was easier because it was on a Valley bar table but, nearly 1/2 of the pocket was blocked.
Regards,
Last edited:
The problem with english is judging how much offset the aim should be, on short shots (OB 2 to 3 diamonds from pocket, and CB about 2 diamonds from OB) aim can be predicted and the margin or error is big. On long shots, the aim prediction becomes very sensitive to how much tip of english, cue squirt, throw, speed, elevation, ball condition, cloth, how much shaft pull, stroke, stay down...etc the less dependents the easier the shot;
so if you shoot center hit you eliminate few dependents, but will make say throw a bigger factor..
So knowing the 4000 shots possibilities in pool will certainly give you much better constancy and feel.
I don't understand how it's possible to shoot without a bridge or apply english with a bridge. Or probably I don't understand what you're talking about.
Read all posts please.
I totally agree with this. But ... today Patrick, everybody is a champeeen! So they just fire away, no problem. :frown:
I'd have to see where the cue ball is. If the rail or pocket is close enough to force me to jack up in order to play a stop shot, then I'm slow rolling it - better accuracy than a jacked shot.