Opponent played safe on me. What would you do and what I did

In the spirit of full disclosure

Kickin' Chicken said:
I kick. That's what I do.

I will make the 2 rail kick on the 4 ball the way they lay as illustrated in the op at about 75% success.

best,
brian kc
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I went to the dungeon and set this up and marked it with a chalk cube and I had at it.

The first 10 attempts with no warming up, I made the shot 4 times, hit the 4 ball 9 times. Four of my misses came in the first five attempts.

I dialed in a little better by the second series of ten attempts and made the 4 ball 6 times out of 10 and made contact on all 10.

The third series I made the 4 ball 7 times and completely missed the 4 ball once (by a whisker - but there's no stat for that :wink:).

In my first post on this thread I said the feather safety was the way I would play it in a meaningful match but that I figured I'm a favorite to make the 2 rail kick at about 75% success.

The number is actually less when shooting it cold then once dialed in, I'm comfortable to do it 70% of the time.

So, taking in to consideration that in a game situation you don't have the luxury of 'dialing in' then it makes an even better case for the feather safety attempt.

I shoot this shot, btw, at 1 o'clock on whitey, firm speed.

If the op feels that he's an 80% favorite to make his masse shot to pocket the 4 ball then my hats off to him, but again, he, as I, must consider is that percentage still 80% shooting it cold without the luxury of being able to get dialed in?

For iusedtoberich:

had we bet, you would have won.

cold I was at 40%.

then 60%

then 70%

I am still confident that I can make that shot at 75% but that would be at optimum, all dialed in with zero wiggle room for error.

Thought I should come back to report this.

best,
brian kc
 
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Nice job!
I don't even imagine what 2 rail kick you're talking about, I just don't see it and if I cannot see a shot in my head, I wouldn't even try it.
I just looked at the layout from a different perspective and if I had to kick at the ball, the only kick I see is a one rail kick( kicking the cueball to the short rail by the opposite corner pocket, having it come back at the object ball and pocketing it) It actually seems easier to me than trying the other alternatives that people told me about( a shot off the opposite side point or a safe shot, trying to hide the cue ball behind the 4)
If I practice that kick and warm up, I can probably make it on 50% of all attempts. The safety shot - I most likely not gonna make it and if I do I would be extremely lucky, the off the point shot is gonna be close to the kick percentage wise( I know my skills and what I can do and what I cannot)
So at my level of playing the masse stays the most favorable shot out of all of those.
 
madmiller said:
Nice job!
I don't even imagine what 2 rail kick you're talking about, I just don't see it and if I cannot see a shot in my head, I wouldn't even try it.
I just looked at the layout from a different perspective and if I had to kick at the ball, the only kick I see is a one rail kick( kicking the cueball to the short rail by the opposite corner pocket, having it come back at the object ball and pocketing it) It actually seems easier to me than trying the other alternatives that people told me about( a shot off the opposite side point or a safe shot, trying to hide the cue ball behind the 4)
If I practice that kick and warm up, I can probably make it on 50% of all attempts. The safety shot - I most likely not gonna make it and if I do I would be extremely lucky, the off the point shot is gonna be close to the kick percentage wise( I know my skills and what I can do and what I cannot)
So at my level of playing the masse stays the most favorable shot out of all of those.
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Madmiller, if you practice the 2-rail kick for a few minutes, you will have a good idea how to make it, depending on how close your ball is to the pocket. If it's within a few inches of the pocket, it's maybe a 50/50 to make the shot.
 
wouldn't it be easier to kick off one rail than off of two?? Every time the ball comes off a rail it means you can be prepared for surprise. I always thought that it's easier to make one rail kick than 2, 3, 4 or more rails.
 
madmiller said:
wouldn't it be easier to kick off one rail than off of two?? Every time the ball comes off a rail it means you can be prepared for surprise. I always thought that it's easier to make one rail kick than 2, 3, 4 or more rails.
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Not always Madmiller. One thing to consider is the angle that the cueball is hitting the first rail. If kicking straight into a rail, any slight english put on the cueball will have a relatively large effect on the rebound angle.

Whereas if your cueball is entering the first rail at a steeper angle, the rebound angle is influenced less by the english that you impart on the cueball.

Therefore, a long one rail kick is sometimes trickier than a 2-rail kick, sometime much more so. But this is already giving away far too much information! I could end up playing you in a tournament one day, and you might use this against me.
 
madmiller said:
wouldn't it be easier to kick off one rail than off of two?? Every time the ball comes off a rail it means you can be prepared for surprise. I always thought that it's easier to make one rail kick than 2, 3, 4 or more rails.
Click to expand...

in the case of the way these balls lay, the two rail kick toward the far corner pocket brings the cue ball back at a more favorable trajectory in order to pot the 4 ball.

going straight up and back is more difficult and a lower percentage shot.

best,
brian kc
 
ChrisBanks said:
Not always Madmiller. One thing to consider is the angle that the cueball is hitting the first rail. If kicking straight into a rail, any slight english put on the cueball will have a relatively large effect on the rebound angle.

Whereas if your cueball is entering the first rail at a steeper angle, the rebound angle is influenced less by the english that you impart on the cueball.

Therefore, a long one rail kick is sometimes trickier than a 2-rail kick, sometime much more so. But this is already giving away far too much information! I could end up playing you in a tournament one day, and you might use this against me.
Click to expand...

I don't think you're in any danger at this stage of my game:grin-square:
But pretty soon...pretty soon.... I am getting more confident during my practices ..:banghead:
but when I get a chance to practice on a real table- then everybody better watch out :bash::bash:
 
Kickin' Chicken said:
in the case of the way these balls lay, the two rail kick toward the far corner pocket brings the cue ball back at a more favorable trajectory in order to pot the 4 ball.

going straight up and back is more difficult and a lower percentage shot.

best,
brian kc
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do you hit the short or the long rail first?
 
madmiller said:
do you hit the short or the long rail first?
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short rail first coming around the table clockwise. You're cueball is contacting the rail only about 3/4 of a diamond from the corner pocket.

and as Chrs pointed out, going up and back one rail is tough action.

the two rail kick is actually much easier to achieve a good result.

btw, I like your attitude.

keep asking questions on az and keep practicing. You'll do well. :thumbup:

best,
brian kc
 
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You know how I look at these situations?...like I'm gambling.

If I decide to kick....I would NOT raise the bet.
If I decide on the grand masse....I would NOT raise the bet.
If I decide to roll off the 4-ball, go to the rail and lock back on the 4..
...thereby taking away his one-rail kick.
I WILL raise the bet,

I think this little mind exercise will work for any range of skills and will help
you make a good decision under pressure.
 
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