Opponent played safe on me. What would you do and what I did

I don't understand why all the replies are trick shots in this thread. The safety is a better percentage play, imo.

I'd hit the 4 to put it between the CB and the 8, forcing my opponent to kick. Depending on the exact angles the CB and 4 are at now, will determine how close the CB and 4 will be after the safety.

Hopefully the CB will end up close enough to the 4 that a curve shot or jump shot would be prohibited.

But the point is to force the opponent to kick the 8 ball in. No kick is automatic, especially with the 8 to the side of the pocket its on. If he misses hitting the 8 on the kick, its BIH and a win. If he hits the 8 but doesn't pocket it, most likely you will have a shot on the 4, or at least a way to play another good safe.

I think the chances of him missing that kick are greater than the chances of me coming up with some crazy trick shot to make the 4. Neither is a favorable position, but the kick is the greater percentage play for you to win.

My banger opinion:)
 
Patrick Johnson said:
LOL


About one in a million times.

pj
chgo
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Pat:

Actually, the "odds" are higher than you think with a little bit of practice -- and with a firm stroke to "flatten" the knuckle of that side pocket on impact. You don't "baby" it -- you have to hit it dead-center and with a good pop. After I've hit this shot a few times on an unfamiliar table, I know how those pocket knuckles are reacting, and can usually have that cue ball return within a ball's width of an angle back to my cue tip.

One of my "pet" aggressive 1p shots -- if I'm playing a "social" match with someone, and I'm in an exhibitionist mood -- is if they've glued me to the top of the pile, I'll slam the cue ball dead-center into the knuckle of the side pocket on the side of the table opposite my pocket, and have the cue ball return into the pile, sending balls towards my hole, and usually not sell-out any balls towards my opponent's pocket. Again, not to be done in any match that matters (i.e. tournament or high-stakes gambling), but it is an option.

I've also done this shot in 14.1 challenge runs, when after an unfortunately unproductive break shot (i.e. angle was too shallow and just glanced the rack), I found a dead ball in the pack, but it required I hit the pile on the opposite side from where the cue ball was located. The side pocket point was my answer, and it WORKED!

With practice, you can also semi-predict off angle rebounds, and Efren's known to play off the point in this manner:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uor0uM5x4WU
(Warning: cheesy soundtrack!)

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Pat:

Actually, the "odds" are higher than you think with a little bit of practice -- and with a firm stroke to "flatten" the knuckle of that side pocket on impact. You don't "baby" it -- you have to hit it dead-center and with a good pop. After I've hit this shot a few times on an unfamiliar table, I know how those pocket knuckles are reacting, and can usually have that cue ball return within a ball's width of an angle back to my cue tip.

One of my "pet" aggressive 1p shots -- if I'm playing a "social" match with someone, and I'm in an exhibitionist mood -- is if they've glued me to the top of the pile, I'll slam the cue ball dead-center into the knuckle of the side pocket on the side of the table opposite my pocket, and have the cue ball return into the pile, sending balls towards my hole, and usually not sell-out any balls towards my opponent's pocket. Again, not to be done in any match that matters (i.e. tournament or high-stakes gambling), but it is an option.

I've also done this shot in 14.1 challenge runs, when after an unfortunately unproductive break shot (i.e. angle was too shallow and just glanced the rack), I found a dead ball in the pack, but it required I hit the pile on the opposite side from where the cue ball was located. The side pocket point was my answer, and it WORKED!

With practice, you can also semi-predict off angle rebounds, and Efren's known to play off the point in this manner:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uor0uM5x4WU
(Warning: cheesy soundtrack!)

-Sean
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Several years ago someone showed me this shot. The first time I tried it I made the ball. If the ball is deep enough into the pocket it's a pretty good proposition. But as stated before...by others...there are better shots and a safety would probably be the most wise.
 
leehayes said:
Several years ago someone showed me this shot. The first time I tried it I made the ball. If the ball is deep enough into the pocket it's a pretty good proposition. But as stated before...by others...there are better shots and a safety would probably be the most wise.
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Oh, absolutely! In the scenario that the OP displayed, the safety is the higher-percentage shot, and since I play a lot of 1p, the touch required to lightly graze the 4-ball and have the cue ball snuggle up behind it on the rail is fairly easy to do.

-Sean
 
To the op, congrats on your shot to set up the win. :thumbup:

This game we all love is all about putting the best possible percentages we can in our favor.

In the scenario you showed in the op, playing a feather safety trying to get whitey to come back and marry the 4 ball def looks like the best percentage play to me. It's relatively uncomplicated and if done well, you're coming back to the table with an easy 4 ball.

Of course, if your just noodling around with nothing at stake you can take some lower percentage shots for the fun of it or for practice.

In a friendly practice game I'd probably 2 rail kick that shot as I'm probably making it at least 75% of the time. But the feather-safety, that looks like a better than 90% shot.

What would you say your percentage is for making the masse shot you played?

Then what would you figure is your percentage to play the feather safety shot?

The honest answers to those two questions will tell you what you should do if it ever comes up in a meaningful match. :wink:

best,
brian kc
 
Kickin' Chicken said:
What would you say your percentage is for making the masse shot you played?

Then what would you figure is your percentage to play the feather safety shot?

The honest answers to those two questions will tell you what you should do if it ever comes up in a meaningful match. :wink:

best,
brian kc
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I can make it maybe 7-8 times out of ten, maybe more.
As far as that safety, I never tried it before, so I don't think I would make it close to being a real safety. Maybe one -two times in twenty tries. When I get a chance to practice on a real table with rails, I will definitely try it!
 
I think you guys are not being realistic...

No one is making that 2 rail kick 75% of the time. Come on, most are doing well to HIT the ball 75% of the time.
No one is making that masse 8/10 times.

I'd bet against those percentages even in a practice type situation where you can mark the balls with donuts.

Then, if you are talking about a real game situation, where you don't have 10 tries to fine tune your aim on what the cushion or cloth does, the odds fall WAY worse.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I think you guys are not being realistic...

No one is making that 2 rail kick 75% of the time. Come on, most are doing well to HIT the ball 75% of the time.
No one is making that masse 8/10 times.

I'd bet against those percentages even in a practice type situation where you can mark the balls with donuts.

Then, if you are talking about a real game situation, where you don't have 10 tries to fine tune your aim on what the cushion or cloth does, the odds fall WAY worse.
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Maybe I should change my name to NO ONE?:)
 
madmiller said:
Thanks!
He didn't do it intentionally, he just missed the 8, the ball rattled and didn't drop and that's where the cue ball and my last ball wound up sitting.
I was thinking to play a safe first, but with my experience I couldn't come up with anything, especially knowing that 8 was a hanger and he could easily kick at it from just about anywhere on the table( he played pool for over 20 years)
So I decided to put a shot that I can do well and consistently to a good use instead of playing some safe that I don't know how to do! :smile:
I guess my floor practicing time wasn't spent in vein!!
I also improvised a "pool table" out of a long dresser that I have. it's about a foot and a half wide and 6 foot long and is very sturdy. I cover it up with a table cloth and practice long shots working on my stroke using that rig. I made a pocket out of a cardboard box and that's where I shoot the balls in!
My game is improving pretty quick. I can only imagine what it's like to have a real table at home to practice on!
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I play low A speed...I would never in a million years try the shot you did. However, you said one of the most important things in all of pool right here...to paraphrase: I tried to do what I can do well and consistently instead of doing what I don't know how to do. I think that is the greatest piece of advice any player could ever receive. Stick with that mentality and at very least you will not give much away! Good post!

KMRUNOUT
 
iusedtoberich said:
I think you guys are not being realistic...

No one is making that 2 rail kick 75% of the time. Come on, most are doing well to HIT the ball 75% of the time.
No one is making that masse 8/10 times.

I'd bet against those percentages even in a practice type situation where you can mark the balls with donuts.

Then, if you are talking about a real game situation, where you don't have 10 tries to fine tune your aim on what the cushion or cloth does, the odds fall WAY worse.
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I concur. Even if you don't miscue on the full masse' it's not guaranteed to fall then game over. Same with the kick. Safety is by far the best shot in a tourney or gambling session.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I think you guys are not being realistic...

No one is making that 2 rail kick 75% of the time. Come on, most are doing well to HIT the ball 75% of the time.
No one is making that masse 8/10 times.

I'd bet against those percentages even in a practice type situation where you can mark the balls with donuts.

Then, if you are talking about a real game situation, where you don't have 10 tries to fine tune your aim on what the cushion or cloth does, the odds fall WAY worse.
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I kick. That's what I do.

I will make the 2 rail kick on the 4 ball the way they lay as illustrated in the op at about 75% success.

best,
brian kc
 
Kickin' Chicken said:
I kick. That's what I do.

I will make the 2 rail kick on the 4 ball the way they lay as illustrated in the op at about 75% success.

best,
brian kc
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Well, if we were in the same area, I'd bet against you just to prove it to myself:) You have a strong kicking game, well done.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Well, if we were in the same area, I'd bet against you just to prove it to myself:) You have a strong kicking game, well done.
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I can vouch for Brian's kicking prowess. They don't call 'im the Kickin' Chicken for nothing!

-Sean <-- although, will go head-to-head with Brian on kicks that involve the points of pockets. ;)
 
Well, I just shot the 2 rail kick 10 times for the hell of it. I set up the shot by memory, and didn't mark it with donuts or anything. So each attempt could have been 1/2" to 1" off or so on ball placements.

Out of 10 attempts:

I hit the ball 4 times on the way in
I hit the ball 3 times on the back side (went long)
I missed the ball entirely 3 times
I pocketed the ball 0 times.

I'm just an average player, but I do play a lot of one pocket (at at avg level), so I'd say I have more kicking experience than the average C+/B- player, which is where I'd rate myself.

Equipment was GC4 with new 860 that still slides.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Well, I just shot the 2 rail kick 10 times for the hell of it. I set up the shot by memory, and didn't mark it with donuts or anything. So each attempt could have been 1/2" to 1" off or so on ball placements.

Out of 10 attempts:

I hit the ball 4 times on the way in
I hit the ball 3 times on the back side (went long)
I missed the ball entirely 3 times
I pocketed the ball 0 times.

I'm just an average player, but I do play a lot of one pocket (at at avg level), so I'd say I have more kicking experience than the average C+/B- player, which is where I'd rate myself.

Equipment was GC4 with new 860 that still slides.
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usetobe,

Do you use or adjust using any english or do you just adjust your aim? The reason I'm asking is that any mis hit off center will affect the shot. If you hit with a planned english, it is easier, for me, to fine tune a shot.

Regards,
 
I tried both slight aim adjustments and slight English adjustments. I found when I dug into the cb I got the closest. But all the hits were pretty close. I was just happy to hit the ball, but that is my level. I'll try again tonorrow maybe and mark the table with donuts.
 
ChrisBanks said:
Stop talking about game strategy, they don't allow that here.
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You mean your sharking strategies are not allowed. I have not seen one post from you that is actually about a true strategy.

You talk about not letting your opponent get in stroke because of a good break. Should you call a foul on yourself etc etc etc.

Come with something that is really pool related and not some cheesy shark move, and I am sure you will be received much better.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I play low A speed...I would never in a million years try the shot you did. However, you said one of the most important things in all of pool right here...to paraphrase: I tried to do what I can do well and consistently instead of doing what I don't know how to do. I think that is the greatest piece of advice any player could ever receive. Stick with that mentality and at very least you will not give much away! Good post!

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words! When I started to take pool seriously in the beginning of 2012, I used to think about all the time that I wasted my first couple of years of playing. And I won my share of tournaments, even though mostly if was luck, it's very hard mentally play against someone knowing that you picked up a cue when your were 40 and they when they were 14.
Now I realize that I learned to play backwards, learned to run before I could walk.
I learned how to masse, jump or rail-jump the ball before I learned how to shoot follow, stop or draw.
2012 was changed my game, I had a chance to go to SBE in PA to work there and then I worked almost for two months in Vegas during league nationals. There I was able to meet a lot of pro players, world champions and that experience changed my game.
Now I work on my fundamentals, the missing link in my game:smile:
As far as playing safe, I usually always look at what would I leave my opponent if I play a safety. I had a thought cross my mind to somehow try to hide the cue ball behind my ball, but decided not even try it because in that case if I was my opponent, I could always easily rail jump the cue ball into the 8. Rail jump was one of my first shots that I learned how to do consistently.
During my first APA match I was called a "sandbagger". I was a 3 according to their ranking system and I played someone who was a 7. I broke and ran all my balls but two( one solid and the 8) He didn't see a run out and played safe on me in such way, so the cue ball was buried behind a line of striped balls and it was no way to kick at my ball at all. I rail jumped my ball in and luckily had a perfect shape on the 8 and won. Everyone on their team couldn't believe it and thought that I was some kind of sanbagging semi-pro lol
 
Once your game has balanced out and you know "all" the shots you will realize the easy lock up safety is the best shot to shoot if you are playing for money. The rail jump is super low percentage for your opponent to MAKE the eight especially if he is cueing over your ball. As soon as he misses you have a duck then the eight. Enjoy your journey.

Btw, while practicing that safety try finding the balance point of your cue and hold it there. It will make the cue feel super light. Then use a super short bridge and move the cue ball 4 inches. It will feel like you have a ton of control.

Try it, I think you will like it.
 
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