Our top US players

Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's time to give some recognition to the top US players.

I am fully willing to acknowledge that the European players are deeper with top talent than the US. I agree there is simply no way that the US players are going to compete at the world stage playing one international event a year and spending the rest of the time sitting out or playing bar table events. Not when the European players are playing their own tour and hitting all of the majors. Unfortunately our lack of an organized domestic pool tour and the resulting small prize money keeps players like Justin home and I don't see this changing any time soon.

I also understand that the criticism for the US players is somewhat constructive in the sense that we all yearn to see some of our top guns follow this path and represent us at the highest levels. So I get that while much of it is presented abrasively, it comes from a place of wanting more for them, not less.

Yet I feel it is important to recognize just how strong our players do play.

First let's talk Mosconi Cup. Here's the thing. Everyone looks bad when they're playing bad, and everyone struggles to deliver their best game when they're in a losing match up. I acknowledge that team Europe is better than team US. US has almost no shot to win. So yes, there is a skill difference. But the skill difference isn't as big as the score indicates. When you know you can't win it makes an impact and so it's not a surprise that our players perform towards the bottom of their range. This in turn results in a lopsided loss, which just makes it harder for next years team. Now, if our players all played their best it would still be hard for them to win. My point is only that judging someone from how they perform when they are in a spot where they have no chance is pretty harsh.

I am out here at the US Open Bar Table Championships live and had the pleasure of watching the hotseat match between Sky and SVB in the 10 ball. The level of play was absolutely stellar. I play pretty sporty and sometimes I wonder where the difference is between myself and the top tier. Watching this match it was obvious. There were many, many shots they executed that simply wouldn't have been in my arsenal. Jump shots. Finesse two rail kicks to lay up on a ball and not leave an easy return. Two rail kick cuts thinning a ball along the end rail into the corner. Beautiful safeties that got frozen to the backs of two balls preventing any reasonable return. They had some moving battles that would've been the end of me on each turn, and they kept coming with shots inning after inning. Then they got the break working and starting trading run outs with superb shot making and intricate position play in tight quarters. Sure it was on 7 foot tables, but striking the exact part of a ball when jumping and kicking isn't much easier just because the end rail is a foot less wide, and in short sets with any error being almost a guaranteed sell out the pressure is ever present.

Look. I want the US to do well. I'd love to see our players compete internationally and strive to represent us on a global scale.

But I can't fault them for not spending tens of thousands of dollars they don't have to pursue something they might not achieve that wouldn't recoup their investment even if they were able to get there. I'm in Vegas as I said and pool reminds me of the slots. You put a lot of money in and hope that maybe you get most of it back, all with the dream that something amazing might happen if you're truly blessed. There are a couple of individuals including SVB that were able to make it happen, but for many, many others they went broke and spent much of their life chasing a dream that was out of reach.

None of us on the forums are doing it. But then we play our local handicapped tournaments or our leagues and type on a keyboard. We say 'well, we don't pretend to be professional pool players, if we were we'd do it different'. Suppose Oscar and Justin and Sky and Billy weren't interested and able to become internationally dominant due to the challenge and the lack of payoff. This doesn't make them terrible people or terrible players. Why can't they be allowed to simply say 'it's too tough and not enough reward' and allow them to enjoy doing their best with the substantial skill sets they have where it is economically feasible? It's funny, when you are a moderate player like me people see you win a set off a pro and give you a compliment, because they compare you to other weekend warriors and you look favorable. But when you win a few tournaments people start comparing you to the top 10 in the world and berating you over the fact that you're not the best.

Sorry I couldn't find a way to express my thoughts more clearly. I guess what I'm saying is that while I hope that pool changes and look forward to our next international star, I respect the heck out of our top players and think they play an amazing game of pool.
 
I read this post to my roommate and he added that while some people may understand what I've written, they just feel our top players represent them personally and feel entitled to having them spend their lives chasing glory.
 
Very well written and I like to believe I feel similar n don't do to much negative judging. Pool is a game that many get good at but very very few ever get great and even low tier pros have put more practice n work into this game than many even can fathom
 
I know a top player that tells about his income from making donations to sperm banks. He claims he is making money hand over fist. Players are pounding out a living any way they can. They claim it actually builds up wrist muscles, strengthens fingers for making a solid bridge and breaks you of the habit some have in throwing their elbow out on the final swing. "Stroking to make cash" is what the hustlers call it. With much practice and professional coaching, you can become an ambidextrous shooter and never have to use a bridge.
This player told me he always makes a large deposit in the bank every Friday because of his job. “Yea, I carry a wad of money too and when I play pool, I don’t let people lowball me on a bet either.” It’s not as if you can let this kind of money slip right through your hands.”These are the players that you can find yourself in a sticky situation with in any game.
I declined to shake his hand and I put my chalk back in my pocket after every shot.
Personally, I think some people are whacked out.

I wrote this in 2015
 
This is an excellent post. And as bad as it is in the U.S., it is worse for the pros in Ontario.

Your comments on the difference between a player of your caliber and the top US pros are interesting. They mesh with my own observations of seeing players of about your Fargo Rating go up against top pros - the "lower" player runs out 95% of the time the top pro would (so there is an occasional miss or missed positional/strategic error, but it is rare), so if that's all I saw I would think they play pretty even. But is the safety and kicking/jumping game that is a clear distinction. The "good" players play good safeties and make "good" kicks and jumps, but they don't play "lock-up" safeties as often or kick back into an excellent safety (maybe because they aren't used to playing players that will punish you for failing to play the perfect safety). Those differences add up to a couple of games over a race, which is enough.

And, of course, there is just the experience/confidence to NOT make a mistake when it is hill-hill...
 
Hey guys. I'm sorry to disappoint. I was in a weird spot. I came out here with Jesse and we are chopping on the tournament. We had a deal coming out that if we played each other I'd let him go through as he is a better player than I am and has a better chance to cover our expenses. Most of all though we are very close and have a really hard time playing each other for money.

I would never do this if there was a calcutta or others were involved. But in this format it didn't seem like it would impact anyone else. We had them stream a different match. I certainly don't mean to disrespect the tournament or show any type of lack of appreciation for Mark and CSI for the opportunity to compete.

Once I found out that people were rooting me on from the forums and that I was scheduled for the stream table I felt mixed about our arrangement. I hope you guys understand. I love pool and the more we can win back the more often I can go to these types of tournaments where I'll have more opportunities to test myself in battle. I'll be railing Jesse and look forward to fighting my hardest in the 8 ball.
 
I'll give you credit for honesty, but does that make it right? I feel the same way about Oscar and Ernesto.

I've met you before and consider you a quality and classy individual, but is this the right thing to do? I guess it's better than putting on a dog and pony show.
 
Of coarse it is the right thing to do...He had an agreement with his road dog, that being

if and when they played he would forfeit. Does it suck? Yes. Is it right? Probably not. But

the man all ready feels bad about it, and doubt he will make that verbal contract again.

Jesse better watch out next time. I understand it, when so agreement occured neither knew

that they would be playing on a stream table with #TinManFans rooting him on. It sucks,

but integrity is holding himself to the original agreement, which he did. Even though it

hurt him that he let some people down. Guarantee he will not do it again.
 
Tin Man, I would venture to guess you have it within you to play the kick and safety game to high standard but you are a working man. You’d have to live and breathe pool like the top tier in order to reach that standard consistently. Just my opinion
 
Tin Man said:
It's time to give some recognition to the top US players.

I am fully willing to acknowledge that the European players are deeper with top talent than the US. I agree there is simply no way that the US players are going to compete at the world stage playing one international event a year and spending the rest of the time sitting out or playing bar table events. Not when the European players are playing their own tour and hitting all of the majors. Unfortunately our lack of an organized domestic pool tour and the resulting small prize money keeps players like Justin home and I don't see this changing any time soon.

I also understand that the criticism for the US players is somewhat constructive in the sense that we all yearn to see some of our top guns follow this path and represent us at the highest levels. So I get that while much of it is presented abrasively, it comes from a place of wanting more for them, not less.

Yet I feel it is important to recognize just how strong our players do play.

First let's talk Mosconi Cup. Here's the thing. Everyone looks bad when they're playing bad, and everyone struggles to deliver their best game when they're in a losing match up. I acknowledge that team Europe is better than team US. US has almost no shot to win. So yes, there is a skill difference. But the skill difference isn't as big as the score indicates. When you know you can't win it makes an impact and so it's not a surprise that our players perform towards the bottom of their range. This in turn results in a lopsided loss, which just makes it harder for next years team. Now, if our players all played their best it would still be hard for them to win. My point is only that judging someone from how they perform when they are in a spot where they have no chance is pretty harsh.

I am out here at the US Open Bar Table Championships live and had the pleasure of watching the hotseat match between Sky and SVB in the 10 ball. The level of play was absolutely stellar. I play pretty sporty and sometimes I wonder where the difference is between myself and the top tier. Watching this match it was obvious. There were many, many shots they executed that simply wouldn't have been in my arsenal. Jump shots. Finesse two rail kicks to lay up on a ball and not leave an easy return. Two rail kick cuts thinning a ball along the end rail into the corner. Beautiful safeties that got frozen to the backs of two balls preventing any reasonable return. They had some moving battles that would've been the end of me on each turn, and they kept coming with shots inning after inning. Then they got the break working and starting trading run outs with superb shot making and intricate position play in tight quarters. Sure it was on 7 foot tables, but striking the exact part of a ball when jumping and kicking isn't much easier just because the end rail is a foot less wide, and in short sets with any error being almost a guaranteed sell out the pressure is ever present.

Look. I want the US to do well. I'd love to see our players compete internationally and strive to represent us on a global scale.

But I can't fault them for not spending tens of thousands of dollars they don't have to pursue something they might not achieve that wouldn't recoup their investment even if they were able to get there. I'm in Vegas as I said and pool reminds me of the slots. You put a lot of money in and hope that maybe you get most of it back, all with the dream that something amazing might happen if you're truly blessed. There are a couple of individuals including SVB that were able to make it happen, but for many, many others they went broke and spent much of their life chasing a dream that was out of reach.

None of us on the forums are doing it. But then we play our local handicapped tournaments or our leagues and type on a keyboard. We say 'well, we don't pretend to be professional pool players, if we were we'd do it different'. Suppose Oscar and Justin and Sky and Billy weren't interested and able to become internationally dominant due to the challenge and the lack of payoff. This doesn't make them terrible people or terrible players. Why can't they be allowed to simply say 'it's too tough and not enough reward' and allow them to enjoy doing their best with the substantial skill sets they have where it is economically feasible? It's funny, when you are a moderate player like me people see you win a set off a pro and give you a compliment, because they compare you to other weekend warriors and you look favorable. But when you win a few tournaments people start comparing you to the top 10 in the world and berating you over the fact that you're not the best.

Sorry I couldn't find a way to express my thoughts more clearly. I guess what I'm saying is that while I hope that pool changes and look forward to our next international star, I respect the heck out of our top players and think they play an amazing game of pool.
Click to expand...

Tin Man, no question that the Team USA players did not perform at a high level of play. Shooting overall .700's is very mediocre for professional level players. The fact that they can move forward and play well a week later on bar tables is telling to me. I think your explanation of what can happen when a good player encounters a better one is excellent. I saw it happening first hand and this year it became difficult to watch our annual meltdown.

I agree that the skill level of our top players is close to the skill level of the top European players and why that does not translate to closer matches is in my opinion more mental than physical. Not only did they get outplayed (by a European team not at their best either), they showed a loss of focus and concentration on many shots. It almost seems like some kind of pool virus infects their brains when they get to the MC.

I give them credit for hanging in there during a lost cause. It must have been hard for them to keep going out there each day and getting beat on. It's like a prizefighter who has lost his edge and becomes a punching bag for other fighters.

But to say that they don't have the opportunity to compete Internationally is one excuse I won't buy. Shane has been competing all over the world for years and Oscar has done his share of traveling as well. Billy and Sky are both young, but the backing is there for them to travel if they want to. If you truly want to be the best player you can be, you'll find a way and make the necessary sacrifices to compete in all the major events. There are dozens of good players traveling all over the world on a shoestring to improve their skills against the best competition available.

I will give you one thing though. The timing couldn't have been worse for the MC players to race to Qatar immediately after playing a grueling event in Vegas.
 
noMoreSchon said:
Of coarse it is the right thing to do...He had an agreement with his road dog, that being

if and when they played he would forfeit. Does it suck? Yes. Is it right? Probably not. But

the man all ready feels bad about it, and doubt he will make that verbal contract again.

Jesse better watch out next time. I understand it, when so agreement occured neither knew

that they would be playing on a stream table with #TinManFans rooting him on. It sucks,

but integrity is holding himself to the original agreement, which he did. Even though it

hurt him that he let some people down. Guarantee he will not do it again.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn’t he do it again? I see nothing wrong with forfeiting to your partner. To me it’s not much different than chopping g the finals. I’d rather watch the set play out, but to each their own.
 
Nice heartfelt post!!

I'd root for you if I knew who you are. I was in the same
'Road dog' situation with a friend on the local level... and we
Could have easily done the same as you without regretting it.

I knew a 'tin man' other than you... wish I knew where he was,
And how he was doing... if you know him have him contact me.

Td
 
easy-e said:
Why wouldn’t he do it again? I see nothing wrong with forfeiting to your partner. To me it’s not much different than chopping g the finals. I’d rather watch the set play out, but to each their own.
Click to expand...

Your right, he may. I sensed some remorse from letting down the people rooting for him.

I might be wrong, either way I have no problem with it. I retract my 'guarantee' !!!
 
Tin Man you did the right thing. You made a deal and you stuck to it. Nothing wrong with it. As far as the US players not going to Qatar, I don't blame them one bit. I'd stay in my own backyard too if possible. Especially after just playing the Mosconi cup. As far as the Mosconi cup goes, about half a dozen shots go a different way and things look different. They had some uncharacteristic misses in some hill games that would have changed the match count. They make those shots and the momentum can swing and then who knows what happens.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top