Outside english helps pocketing balls near the rail?

[Luxury]

Me and my practice partner were debating this. If I'm shooting a 30 degree cut to the left into the corner pocket along the side rail for instance I like to use right english to cinch the money ball. I know a lot of good players like to throw balls in cause they can aim fuller but I also mentioned to him that by doing so I'm also transfering english onto the object ball (clockwise spin) which helps pocket the ball because if it hits the side rail it will widen the angle that the object ball comes off and help it head towards the pocket.

he feels that inside english (left in this case) would actually help because when it hits the jaws the object balls counter clockwise spin would launch it into the pocket.

He feels that my counter clockwise spin would cause it to rattle in the pocket more and I can see where he is coming from.

But I remember reading that only 2% of the english is transferred from the cue ball to the object ball so I mentioned that the transferred english would do the important job of widening the angle if the ball hits the side rail before entering the pocket and that the english may have worn off enough by the time it hits the jaws to keep it from rattling.

I have read many many pool books and don't recall this being discussed. I would love to hear from Bob Jewitt on this one.

 

[Jaden]

hitting the ball right makes it go in best

I heard you say that if you're using outside English you can aim fuller to the ball? Well if that's how you aim then that means you adjust for English by feel, and if that's the case you're better off not using any english when shooting in a ball off the rail. regardless of what system you use to adjust for spin, aiming correctly initially is the best way to make a rail shot.

The fancier you get the less likely you are to hit the ball in the right spot with few exceptions.

you are right in that it imparts opposite spin which will help throw it into the pocket if it does go a little wide, but deoending on the cut of the rails at the pocket and the width of the pocket, it is a negligible help when compared to the liklihood of hitting the ball off due to miscalculation of squirt, throw etc when imparting the extra spin, so in other words, if you don't need the spin, you'll be better off not using it.

 

[Luxury]

Oh I always throw balls in using english and it is a feel thing. I would shoot a 30 degree cut in the middle of the table that had no chance of scratching using running english and I believe a lot of pros do as well judging by the running english that is on the cue ball after they shoot.

 

[Drew]

Outside english will help you pocket the ball. Start drilling with this shot. Use all different kinds of spin. You'll notice that outside english helps a lot. But don't neglect the other forms of english, you need to be able to pocket these balls regardless of how you shoot it.

 

[poolplayer2093]

in my opinion i use english on some shots because i feel more cumfortable shooting the shot that way. if i make the shot more times out of ten shooting it a certan way than i'm probably going to try to shoot it that way unless it has a possitional advantage to shoot it differently

 

[Colin Colenso]

The main advantages of using OE on rail shots is that it helps prevent undercutting, which is the usual cause of a miss, and it benefits positional play in many circumstances.

But when using OE on these shots, it's most likely that the gearing effect will put almost no spin onto the OB. Playing the shot as a soft stun will convert the most pocketing spin onto the OB, but it will tend to result in undercutting of the shot.

I also prefer this shot with OE, but it's important to be able to shoot it with whatever spin is required to gain position.

Colin

 

[Cameron Smith]

English should only be used for positional purposes or pocketing balls that would otherwise be impossible to make, not just hard to make.

You need to learn how to make balls consistently using both left and a right hand spin as well center ball. If you don't your progress will freeze eventually.

 

[Luxury]

English should only be used for positional purposes or pocketing balls that would otherwise be impossible to make, not just hard to make.

You need to learn how to make balls consistently using both left and a right hand spin as well center ball. If you don't your progress will freeze eventually.[/QUOTE

Am I taking crazy pills or am I not correct when I see every pro on tv shoot the nine ball in with outside english when cutting it around 30 degrees? You can see the spin. You can see the cue ball go 2 rails. I know it's easier to shoot the last ball with english once you are good at it cause I've been doing it for years and have watched hundereds of hours of pros play and they do it too.

 

[Luxury]

I would like to note that I was specific in the original thread that we are talking about "cinching the money ball" of course I have learned to shoot with inside english as well. God knows I wouldn't use inside on the last ball on the table though.

 

[Jaden]

English should only be used for positional purposes or pocketing balls that would otherwise be impossible to make, not just hard to make.

You need to learn how to make balls consistently using both left and a right hand spin as well center ball. If you don't your progress will freeze eventually.[/QUOTE

Am I taking crazy pills or am I not correct when I see every pro on tv shoot the nine ball in with outside english when cutting it around 30 degrees? You can see the spin. You can see the cue ball go 2 rails. I know it's easier to shoot the last ball with english once you are good at it cause I've been doing it for years and have watched hundereds of hours of pros play and they do it too.

it's never EASIER to shoot a ball with english, it's only better for position, avoiding a scratch, etc....

When using english, depending on the adjustment method you use, there is still always a tendency to not want to stroke it straight through, which raises the chances of throwing off the shot. Pros are at a level of concentration and practice that the chance of missing them are negligible but if you watch when they DO miss it is almost always while putting shit tons of english on the ball

 

[Luxury]

You couldn't be more wrong. Put up a new post if you like. Using english to make the last ball on the table is commonly used by pros because you can aim for a fuller hit and use the spin to "throw" the ball in. Ask some real pool players.

 

[Thunderball]

it's never EASIER to shoot a ball with english, it's only better for position, avoiding a scratch, etc....

Agreed.

Are you shaping the rack shot?

In or out english on 30% rail shots is one discussion..money balls are another imo.

 

[Drew]

Agreed.

Are you shaping the rack shot?

In or out english on 30% rail shots is one discussion..money balls are another imo.

It could be psychological then. All I know is these are virtually 100% shots if I use outside.

 

[Jaden]

Agreed.

Are you shaping the rack shot?

In or out english on 30% rail shots is one discussion..money balls are another imo.

on the break in nineball I shoot a feww inches off the side rail and use outside english with a little draw. The spin helps to stop the cue ball and throw the one ball into the side.

 

[gmcole]

The transfer of spin to the object is very small and is, in most shots, gone by the time it gets to the pocket. It does not "spin " itself into the pocket. Using outside english on near/on rail shots is the one of the most common shots in pool ( for position). Because it is so common, it can become your way of "cinching" that shot. If the ball is frozon to the rail, for the novice player, outside english can be easier. If you hit the ball and rail at the same time a slight amount of outside is needed to run the ball down the rail. Otherwise, throw, from the 30 or so degree angle of approach will cause the ball to be thrown into the rail. However, as previously said, you must be able to pocket balls on/near the rail with all types of english in order to get position.
all IMHO -thanks-jeff

 

[Luxury]

Well no one has really answered my question about the interplay between the balls.

 

[Jaden]

ok

Well no one has really answered my question about the interplay between the balls.

The interplay between the balls is thus, if you use outside english the OB will move faster off of the CB and go farther. You have to adjust either with BHE or feel or some other way for the squirt throw etc, and that makes making the shot slightly more difficult but with the right technique and practice a negligible difference.

Other than that, using spin will give you no more greater liklihood of making the ball. Outside english will impart opposite english on the OB and might, stress might, give the OB a better chance of rolling off the rail toward the pocket thereby hugging the rail if the shot is a little off. Your best bet would be to practice the fundamentals, learn how to use BHE to adjust for squirt etc, and practice to where you can make any shot with almost any english and you won't have to worry about whether it's easier or not.

 

[Luxury]

Other than that, using spin will give you no more greater liklihood of making the ball. Outside english will impart opposite english on the OB and might, stress might, give the OB a better chance of rolling off the rail toward the pocket thereby hugging the rail if the shot is a little off.

Okay you just said that it will give me no more greater liklihood of making the ball but then you said that It MIGHT give the ob a better chance of rolling off the rail toward the pocket. So which is it?

Either you know if it will or you don't. I don't need to hear if it might. If somebody knows for sure I would like to hear it.

I know that it's easier for me to make the ball with outside. I know that I know how to use inside english and center ball if I need to get shape on another ball of course but that has nothing to do with my question.

Then you comment on how I should practice so I don't have to worry about whether it's easier or not? I want to know what is easier in every scenario whether I can make it both ways or not. I guess I'm just more detail oriented.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The interplay between the balls is thus, if you use outside english the OB will move faster off of the CB and go farther. You have to adjust either with BHE or feel or some other way for the squirt throw etc, and that makes making the shot slightly more difficult but with the right technique and practice a negligible difference.

Other than that, using spin will give you no more greater liklihood of making the ball. Outside english will impart opposite english on the OB and might, stress might, give the OB a better chance of rolling off the rail toward the pocket thereby hugging the rail if the shot is a little off. Your best bet would be to practice the fundamentals, learn how to use BHE to adjust for squirt etc, and practice to where you can make any shot with almost any english and you won't have to worry about whether it's easier or not.

Hi Jaden,
Can you empty your PM box....trying to reply to your PM

Colin

 

[Jaden]

Other than that, using spin will give you no more greater liklihood of making the ball. Outside english will impart opposite english on the OB and might, stress might, give the OB a better chance of rolling off the rail toward the pocket thereby hugging the rail if the shot is a little off.

Okay you just said that it will give me no more greater liklihood of making the ball but then you said that It MIGHT give the ob a better chance of rolling off the rail toward the pocket. So which is it?

Either you know if it will or you don't. I don't need to hear if it might. If somebody knows for sure I would like to hear it.

I know that it's easier for me to make the ball with outside. I know that I know how to use inside english and center ball if I need to get shape on another ball of course but that has nothing to do with my question.

Then you comment on how I should practice so I don't have to worry about whether it's easier or not? I want to know what is easier in every scenario whether I can make it both ways or not. I guess I'm just more detail oriented.

alright man, maybe I didn't illustrate it well enough. If it is close enough to the right amount being off the spin will help it hug the rail on the way to the pocket, but it is not enough to use it every time the OB is near the rail.