outside english vs inside english
- Thread starter swest
- Start date
As usual, Stan is right on the money. Regarding Dave's post a couple back - one is not necessarily harder than the other, but we rarely "spray" an outside english shot. I think Stan's explanation of the cue angling could be a great answer as to why this happens. I still have to be conscious of this, it's easy to get lazy and almost just parallel the stick over when using inside english and introduce more deflection than anticipated.
I know for me, playing a lot of 3 cushion really helped get more familiar with the sight picture, adjustments, and effects of inside english, since most "normal" 3 or 5 rail shots are shot with inside english with various combinations of follow, center, or draw and different proportions of each. That will either help you get over your anxiety quickly or drive you even crazier...
Scott
I know for me, playing a lot of 3 cushion really helped get more familiar with the sight picture, adjustments, and effects of inside english, since most "normal" 3 or 5 rail shots are shot with inside english with various combinations of follow, center, or draw and different proportions of each. That will either help you get over your anxiety quickly or drive you even crazier...
Scott
As usual, Stan is right on the money. Regarding Dave's post a couple back - one is not necessarily harder than the other, but we rarely "spray" an outside english shot. I think Stan's explanation of the cue angling could be a great answer as to why this happens. I still have to be conscious of this, it's easy to get lazy and almost just parallel the stick over when using inside english and introduce more deflection than anticipated.
I know for me, playing a lot of 3 cushion really helped get more familiar with the sight picture, adjustments, and effects of inside english, since most "normal" 3 or 5 rail shots are shot with inside english with various combinations of follow, center, or draw and different proportions of each. That will either help you get over your anxiety quickly or drive you even crazier...
Scott
I think Stan is correct. My cue may very well be angled differently. I haven't hit a ball since his post, but I've been ticking on his comment for a day.
doh! thanks for not telling me that 'search is your friend'. I just found the sticky (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=64559)
Well, that's a bummer. I found the instructions, but now I'm having shockwave problems... I've reinstalled everything I can think of (firefox, shockwave, I even tried using IE), and I can't get things to work properly.
Eventually, I'll be back here to post a layout I wanted to use to describe the back hand english (BHE) epiphany that allowed me to shoot shots with extreme inside english that I would have had problems with before the light went on.
Hopefully, more later.
Eventually, I'll be back here to post a layout I wanted to use to describe the back hand english (BHE) epiphany that allowed me to shoot shots with extreme inside english that I would have had problems with before the light went on.
Hopefully, more later.
Ok, so I'm getting to the party a little late... apparently cuetable posting is passé (or, at least, no longer in high favor). But screenshotting cuetable layouts is the way to go, so, here we are:
This shot, where a lot of high inside english is required to get the cue ball down to the other end of the table, used to give me fits. I would normally miss it, and normally overcut it (failure to properly account for deflection).
After I discovered back hand english, and found the pivot point for my playing stick, I never missed another one. Now, the inside english issue that is the subject of this thread, is, at least for shots where I can use BHE, a non-issue. It doesn't even enter my mind that this is a difficult shot (because of the inside english), because I line it up as a center ball shot, and then I don't even think about it any more after pivoting.
This shot, where a lot of high inside english is required to get the cue ball down to the other end of the table, used to give me fits. I would normally miss it, and normally overcut it (failure to properly account for deflection).
After I discovered back hand english, and found the pivot point for my playing stick, I never missed another one. Now, the inside english issue that is the subject of this thread, is, at least for shots where I can use BHE, a non-issue. It doesn't even enter my mind that this is a difficult shot (because of the inside english), because I line it up as a center ball shot, and then I don't even think about it any more after pivoting.
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I think Stan just said it's a matter of familiarity, like I suggested.
Inside english shots are thinner and throw less, so the shots have to be aimed differently - but different isn't harder.
pj
chgo
And you didn't you have the same problem with hard outside draw on similar shots?
pj
chgo
I would say no. And I think the reason is that I would use outside draw even when it wasn't needed... so in a way I was constantly practicing that shot.
I remember, as a kid, that I just liked the way the cue ball behaved when I would shoot a hard outside draw. You know, the way it would just arc back and down table... whether I needed it or not :wink:
This thread is interesting to me. I too see inside and outside differently. I'm not sure if its a perception thing, or a physics thing. Note: I'm a feel player.
I'm a high C/low B player. I feel my inside english shots are actually one of my strengths, compared to players the same speed as me. I feel very comfortable shooting them.
The thing is, to my brain, when I hit an inside english shot, I can clearly see my stick angled at the address, and that I'm visualizing a much fuller hit on the OB, knowing through experience that the CB will deflect over.
But in contrast, when I'm shooting with outside english, instead of aiming thinner and having the deflection bring the CB to the correct contact point on the OB, my eyes actually tell me the CB is actually aiming to hit the OB fuller than the GB contact point.
To try to clarify the above two paragraphs, for both inside and outside english shots, the picture my brain sees is that I'm hitting both scenarios fuller than the GB contact point. This doesn't make sense to me when I think about it. I never really focused on this to try to understand it in my own game, I just went with it.
I'm a high C/low B player. I feel my inside english shots are actually one of my strengths, compared to players the same speed as me. I feel very comfortable shooting them.
The thing is, to my brain, when I hit an inside english shot, I can clearly see my stick angled at the address, and that I'm visualizing a much fuller hit on the OB, knowing through experience that the CB will deflect over.
But in contrast, when I'm shooting with outside english, instead of aiming thinner and having the deflection bring the CB to the correct contact point on the OB, my eyes actually tell me the CB is actually aiming to hit the OB fuller than the GB contact point.
To try to clarify the above two paragraphs, for both inside and outside english shots, the picture my brain sees is that I'm hitting both scenarios fuller than the GB contact point. This doesn't make sense to me when I think about it. I never really focused on this to try to understand it in my own game, I just went with it.
I can see that as well. if by fuller, you mean thicker?
When using inside english, I aim a bit thicker to compensate for the squirt that sends the CB away from the aim line.
When using outside english, when the CB and OB are far apart, I aim a bit thicker to compensate for the swerve and throw.
Don't think about it if it works for you.
Be well.
This is why I started shooting with my head a tad more erect and now block out much of my stick line from my conscious attention...stick line will lie to you everytime if you let it, which is why when you naturally get down on the shot it looks wrong to you, then you adjust, you end up missing...you had it right the first time but screwed it up because the stick line looked wrong--when in fact it was that way accounting for throw, swerve, deflection, etc...Of course I still pay attention to where my tip's going, but I pay A LOT less attention to the overall shaft. Works better for me.
I think it's both and, Patrick is correct that we shoot inside and top less often by necessity, and the lines of sight as well as calculating rail action and etc. are tougher with inside.
For me
Inside English creates issues with cue ball deflection
Very hard to compensate
Outside often creates object ball throw, or in other words increases cut of object ball
I find throw so much easier to deal with , it's almost instinctual after awhile
But deflection is a demon of it's own
As far as draw versus follow
No real difference in preference.
Mostly position related
Although who doesn't love draw
It's our first magic trick
Inside English creates issues with cue ball deflection
Very hard to compensate
Outside often creates object ball throw, or in other words increases cut of object ball
I find throw so much easier to deal with , it's almost instinctual after awhile
But deflection is a demon of it's own
As far as draw versus follow
No real difference in preference.
Mostly position related
Although who doesn't love draw
It's our first magic trick
Of course the cue ball has no clue whether it's inside or outside spin, so it squirts the same both ways. Maybe the difference is in how the CB/OB interact.
With outside english:
- squirt produces undercut
- spin throw produces overcut
- tend to cancel each other
With inside english:
- squirt produces overcut
- spin reduces counteracting throw
- tend to overcut
pj
chgo