Overheard from two money players:

jjinfla

Banned
Player #1 approaches player #2 and says let's play for xxxx a set. I get the breaks, ball in hand after the break and if you make any ball on the table you win.

Player #2 says to player #1: I have a better deal. I get the break, I get ball in hand after the break and if you make any ball you win.

They decided not to gamble.

Thinking about this points out just how lousy of a pool player I and most players really are and it tells me that I should never, ever gamble on pool.

Jake
 
That proposition is about 15% easier than playing the ghost. Cause if the player doesn't run out after the break, they could either play a safe or get lucky with a safe.

So a player who can play say 7-9 against the ghost, should beat a pro under this bet. Gotta be a fairly decent player to do that, but it's far from pro-level as good 9-ball pros should beat the 9-ball ghost about 9-5 or better on average.

Colin
 
Right Colin. And that is what scares me. That there are players so good.

And it took me 9 years to figure that out. How easy it is to underestimate a really good pool player.

That means my chances of beating a pro are not slim and none. They are none and none. zip. nada.

No wonder the women did so poorly in the IPT. They really are not at the level of the real pros.

Jake
 
<<No wonder the women did so poorly in the IPT. They really are not at the level of the real pros.>>

"REAL PROS?????" Sorry Jake but that was a condescending and ignorant remark. In your mind, only a man can be a "real professional" ?

8 Ball is clearly a game that requires more physical break power than 9 Ball but there is no law saying that you can only be considered a professional if you are an 8 Ball player.

Take Rotation for example. If you pick that game then to be a professional you would have to be not only a male but also a Philipino male.

Allision Fisher is one of the greatest POOL PLAYERS of all time. Have you ever seen her play? How can you beat someone who doesn't miss...male or female???

Sure, the very best half dozen or dozen male pros would likely beat her...say 10-7 on average although she can AND HAS beaten many of them on a given day....even in 8 Ball....but wait....last time I looked there were A LOT more that a dozen male players and those players beat their MALE counterparts the majority of the time. So, are you saying that the only "real pros" are males on the Top 12 money list and the rest of the males aren't "real pros"?

You pick any one of the male touring 9 Ball pros not on the top 12 prize money list and I'll take Allision...Race to 9, alternate break.....(winner break being about the dumbest rule in all of professional sports)....and bring cash pardner....a LOT of cash.

Jim
 
av84fun said:
<<No wonder the women did so poorly in the IPT. They really are not at the level of the real pros.>>


You pick any one of the male touring 9 Ball pros not on the top 12 prize money list and I'll take Allision...Race to 9, alternate break.....(winner break being about the dumbest rule in all of professional sports)....and bring cash pardner....a LOT of cash.

Jim

I know you are making a point, but, you are insane, Sir :) She would get owned by touring pros not in the top 12. Sure, she would win a couple sets but she would lose far more often. She is very good, but not that good. remember there are big differences in the gaps between high level play. There is really, really good, and then their is world beater... I'll take your bet ;)


What does this have to do with the IPT, BTW?
 
AV84fun,

I suggest you go watch the videos that Tate posted and tell me that Allison can do that.

Actually, I know that Helena Thornfeldt can, she showed up here one night and tried to get people to bet against her playing the ghost and couldn't get any takers.

I understand that Karen gets beat by shortstops on the Joss tour and Allison does not play on any tours except the WPBA but she did get beat by Grady about 10 years ago when she was in her prime when they went on tour. But of course that was most likely more PR than actual combat.

Alternate break is a handicap to the better player. The WPBA did it to slow down Allison.

Jake
 
The language is poor but the essence is correct. Arguing that they women play on par with the men is just plain silly. AF plays great. Can she beat anyone in the world on a given day...yup. Will she beat a TOP 50 male pro on most days? No. The bookies don't think so. The stats don't indicate so. The Top 5 women are in a class by themselves. They are at least a full ball and a half better than the next 10, never mind the rest of the gals.

I would say that 8 ball is a better game for the women. More dry breaks and as such equals more table innings. The game also requires less strength to move the ball around because of the infinite options and patterns.

After two events (arguably not a lot of data) she is ranked 86th and has won 48% of here games. Good numbers and nothing to be ashamed of but not Top 20. I think over time she would probably trickle up to about 60~70 in the rankings. The balance would trickle down from there.

Alison came along and slapped the women in the face and brought them all up a big notch. Small men play with the big boys all the time (AP etc) and I don't believe it's size. A women may come along and be world champ but today she doesn't exist. None of the current Women could win a major Men's event. It is what it is.

Nick "The Big AF Fan" Beretanos
 
Captive Bred..."I know you are making a point, but, you are insane, Sir" Oh, OK. So anyone whose opinion you don't agree with is "insane"? Right. I guess that settles it then.

<<What does this have to do with the IPT, BTW?>>

Absoultely nothing. If your reading skills were more advanced, you will see that I was responding to a direct quote from another forum member.

<<She is very good, but not that good.>>

THANKS for that comment. I LOVE a good joke ROFLMAO!
Jim
 
Jake...<<I suggest you go watch the videos that Tate posted and tell me that Allison can do that. Actually, I know that Helena Thornfeldt can, she showed up here one night and tried to get people to bet against her playing the ghost and couldn't get any takers.>>

Ummm...Jake my man. Allision is currently ranked #1 in spite of one of her lesser seasons so far and Helena is ranked #8. What....exactly...leads you to believe that Allision is a less capable player than Helena?? Amd BTW, what the He!! does beating the Ghost have to do with winning 9 Ball matches? You see Jake, there are a couple of rules in 9 Ball that are fairly important. One, you don't get ball in hand after the break...including after scratching on the break and two, some advanced pros are pretty good at a shot called a "safety."

<<Alternate break is a handicap to the better player. The WPBA did it to slow down Allison.>>

First, MANY MALE pro events including nearly all that are televised on ESPN use the alternate break format. But that isn't the point. The point is that winner breaks is a STUPID way to conduct a sporting contest. Are you in favor of
1. The team scored upon kicking off to the scoring team?
2. The scoring basketball team getting to throw the ball back into play?
3. The tennis player who just won a game getting to keep the serve?
4. The scoring hockey team getting guaranteed possession of the puck after the goal?
5. The bowler rolling a strike to just get to keep his/her turn until he rolls a spare?
6. The scoring soccer team getting to put the ball back into play?

The "winner breaks" mentality is nearly unique to pool and thankfully, is becoming more and more out of favor because it is so STUPID! What EXACTLY does it prove to have two world champions playing each other and one of them sitting in his chair watching the other guy put on a "six pack" to win a tournament??? Especially since the VAST majority of such runs are a COMBINATION of great play and GREAT ROLLS???

<<Allison does not play on any tours except the WPBA
but she did get beat by Grady about 10 years ago when she was in her prime>>

And that proves exactly WHAT?? The FACT of the matter is that at the IPT Vegas her win percentage was 50% which equals ONE HALF where I went to school and SHE DID NOT HAVE A SINGLE MATCH AGAINST ANOTHER WOMAN AND PROBABLY HADN'T PLAYED 100 RACKS OF COMPETITIVE 8 BALL IN HER LIFE BEFORE THAT TOURNAMENT!!! And oh, by the way, she turned in that spectacular performance in spite of having a significant physical strehgth disadvantage vs. the men in 8 Ball...a disadvantage that is much lower....WAY lower in the game of 9 Ball because of the physical laws of moving 15 balls with a single stroke vs. moving 8 Balls.

In her prime TEN YEARS AGO? Have you been living in a cave? She only arrived in the U.S. 11 years ago Since then she has won more 9-Ball tournaments than the total wins of all her pro competitors combined, and over 5 times as many titles as the player with the 2nd most wins in that span.

You sound like Sigel who utterly disprespects female players...which is, of course, why he contracted to play LJJ in the Masters of the Hill tournement and DUCKED playing Allison. No disprespect to LJJ who was a GREAT champion but she was ranked about 64th out of 66 on the WPBA tour at the time of that match!
Jim
 
BTW Captive, check out the Vegas IPT stats. Allison won FIFTY PERCENT of her matches...ALL AGAINST MALES...playing a BRAND NEW game to her.
Jim
 
av84fun said:
The "winner breaks" mentality is nearly unique to pool and thankfully, is becoming more and more out of favor because it is so STUPID! What EXACTLY does it prove to have two world champions playing each other and one of them sitting in his chair watching the other guy put on a "six pack" to win a tournament??? Especially since the VAST majority of such runs are a COMBINATION of great play and GREAT ROLLS???


Alternate break may end the same way if everyone is going to break and run. The person winning the lag or the flip would always win hill-hill then huh? Jake, you must have wanted to start something, mentioning something about women and men. Allison is a great player, but hey, Captive bred, can I get part of your action? Please!!!

P.S. If I put up someone who is not in the top 50 or not an IPT member, can we get a little spot or maybe odds on our money?
 
Hi Rossaroni...<<Alternate break may end the same way if everyone is going to break and run. The person winning the lag or the flip would always win hill-hill then huh? >>

Maybe so but in a race to say, 9, then both players would have at least one shot (at least the break) in no less than 4 games so there would be something at least resembling a "contest." As I noted, defending the winner breaks rule is no different that playing "loser kicks off" in football.

Its just a ridiculous rule.

As for "taking the action", it is just TOO funny that so many people....like Mike Sigel are so disrespectful of female players. How can you be so cock sure...to use an acceptable but bad pun that you would win when Allision beat 50% of the IPT qualified MEN in Vegas in a game she has hardly played???? That is a FACT.

But here is MY guarantee...which is a whole lot better than certain other guarantees discussed is this thread. The WPBA won't allow its players to engage in gambling but tell ya what. If there IS another IPT tournament, I will BE there...with CASH...and if there is a match involving Allision and ANY player not ranked in the Top 12 money stats then I'll post $2,000.00 per match with a ONE game spot to make up for 8 Ball not being her game.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
You pick any one of the male touring 9 Ball pros not on the top 12 prize money list and I'll take Allision...Race to 9, alternate break.....(winner break being about the dumbest rule in all of professional sports)....and bring cash pardner....a LOT of cash.

Jim

I have an even better idea. You go get Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Kelly Fisher, or any other top female player, and tell them that they can get huge weight from Ronnie Alcano or Dennis Orcullo. Lee Van Corteza is a possibility also. This is no BS either. A close friend of mine represents these Filipino players and a couple more. He told me that any of the three Filipinos I mentioned above will give the either the 6 out or the 6,7, and the last two, depending on the female player. Onepocketchump, if you are reading this, this is an open offer to Kelly Fisher, you might be interested.

I won't be the one doing the staking, they have their own backers for this. But I would definately like to do some sidebetting if it were to happen. If any of you are serious about this, let me know and it can be arranged...IF the amount the females are willing to bet make it worth the Filipino players' time and energy.
 
Just a tidbit of info about football. When a team scores, the special teams unit comes on and the scoring team is on offense. The receiving team is the defense. Kinda like a winner breaks...lol

Alcano or Orcollo would beat Allison giving her the 6,7, and could probably have Busta break for her. Well, maybe as long is it was on a table with smaller than 5 and a half inch pockets... :)

I think that the Women aren't allowed to gamble that are on tour, because if they got with some of those guys they wouldn't have enough money to make it to the next tourney. Just a thought. lol
 
jjinfla said:
Player #1 approaches player #2 and says let's play for xxxx a set. I get the breaks, ball in hand after the break and if you make any ball on the table you win.

Player #2 says to player #1: I have a better deal. I get the break, I get ball in hand after the break and if you make any ball you win.

They decided not to gamble.

Thinking about this points out just how lousy of a pool player I and most players really are and it tells me that I should never, ever gamble on pool.

Jake


I heard Shannon Daulton offer a similar game once. The difference being, the guy only needed to make a good hit to win.
 
Anyone that thinks the women can beat any of the tourning men on a consistent basis, has ALOT to learn about pool. There are atleast 10 top mens players that can give AF the 7. So, if they can give it to her, they can give it to the rest of the women too. And since this is an IPT thread, and 8 ball is a little easier game than 9 ball, how come you havent seen any of the women finish in the top 10 in an IPT event (not that they would have gotten paid or anything...)? No disrepect to the women...I know alot of the pro ladies, but this is just a fact. JMO.

Southpaw
 
Alcano, Ronato
Feijen, Niels
Owen, Gabriel
Williams, Charles
Chamat, Marcus
Hundal, Raj
Sambajon, Santos
Strickland, Earl
Putnam, Shawn
Robles, Tony
Schmidt, John
Van Boening, Shane
Pinegar, Jonathan
Jones, Jeremy
Basavich, Daniel
Archer, Johnny i would bet the ranch against allison with johnny all day
i would also back any of these other players against allison and im sure there would be alot of other people that would too...
so how much you talking here....
 
Ha Ha Ha.

Didn't mean to imply that alternate break is bad, just that it gives an advantage to the weaker player. I would like to see a format like in bowing where each player breaks twice.

Maybe ESPN should set up a challenge match with Allison and Earl. Cuetec would love that.

Is he a top 12 money earner?

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Ha Ha Ha.

Didn't mean to imply that alternate break is bad, just that it gives an advantage to the weaker player. I would like to see a format like in bowing where each player breaks twice.

Maybe ESPN should set up a challenge match with Allison and Earl. Cuetec would love that.

Is he a top 12 money earner?

Jake


That's a great idea! I don't know who I would like there. :confused:
 
av84fun said:
. But here is MY guarantee...which is a whole lot better than certain other guarantees discussed is this thread. The WPBA won't allow its players to engage in gambling but tell ya what. If there IS another IPT tournament, I will BE there...with CASH...and if there is a match involving Allision and ANY player not ranked in the Top 12 money stats then I'll post $2,000.00 per match with a ONE game spot to make up for 8 Ball not being her game.Regards,Jim


Jim, I have to give you credit. You really seem like you would bet and are not just talking about something you have no intention of doing. I think you would probably get a lot of takers with your bet. Do you mean top 12 in the IPT or are you basing the top 12 on nine ball. Just think of all the players. Efren, Francisco, Dennis, Alex, Ronnie, Lining, Lee, Kiamco. There are eight right there who I think would play like that. Now let's see, I need four more. Ok- Ralph, Thorsten, Ortmann, Engert. Ok there's the twelve. I could list some Americans who might like the game, or even Taiwanese. Cliff(not top 12 right?) gave Allison the 6 ball I think it was, and she did not like it! I know that Allison and some of the other ladies play great. They could beat most men out there. However, I do not think people realize how much different many of the men play. Allison may never miss, but neither do the professional men. I hope there is another IPT tournament, cause I think you will be getting some action. In no way am I trying to change your thinking, but you got to realize that bet may not seem as good you think it is.
 
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