Patent Law Help

class act

class act

as class-less as it gets
Silver Member
Hello all...


I was approached by Mike G. from Baby's Pro Shop at a recent show... He more or less got in my face and demanded that I stop selling or building break cues with a one-piece ferrule design or face prosecution. His main claim was a recently filed patent, which he proceeded to waive in my face.

I was under the strong impression that a US patent does NOT apply if you can prove that you've been making the patented item PRIOR to the patent's filing date.

Have any of you ever run across this issue (or similar) before? Am I doing anything illegal?
 
As a non lawyer(and glad of it) this is only my opinion. If he has a patent, you are out of luck. You can either fight his patent, or should have fought his attempt to get it patented. Prior usage could be used to void a patent, but not violate it. I figure 10k minimum to fight it, so probably not worth the effect. And by the way, you are responsible to make sure you are not violating patents. Theoretically he could go after you for every one you made after the date of the patent. Best bet would be to get a copy of the patent and make sure it applies exactly to what you are doing.
Or just come up with a better design. It is now in the hands of the legal system and becomes a matter of who has the deeper pockets.
Just remember the old saying. Free legal advise is usually worth what you payed. I used a patent attorney over 10 years ago and he was 265.00 an hour. An I hate to say it, but he was worth every penny of it. The insurance company hated him which was almost worth it up front. Good luck, I had heard a rumor that Mike had a patent, so guess we will see some new jump tip designs.
 
IIRC, it's whoever has brought their product to public awareness first and has been publicly documented. Verifiable dated documentation such as magazine ads, interviews about the product, product reviews, etc. can help determine who the originator is. Somebody at one time mention mailing the design documents to himself to get a dated postmark but I doubt that this'll work as the contents aren't date stamped by the postal service.

Some idiot has been flaunting holding a trademark on my ER marking and threatening to ... Unfortunately for him, my trademarks have been published in magazines well before he even started thinking about cues. Just waiting for him to act on his boasting.
 
class act said:
Hello all...


I was approached by Mike G. from Baby's Pro Shop at a recent show... He more or less got in my face and demanded that I stop selling or building break cues with a one-piece ferrule design or face prosecution. His main claim was a recently filed patent, which he proceeded to waive in my face.

I was under the strong impression that a US patent does NOT apply if you can prove that you've been making the patented item PRIOR to the patent's filing date.

Have any of you ever run across this issue (or similar) before? Am I doing anything illegal?
Click to expand...

Screw him, it is civil law and he has to hire a lawyer as well as prove damages. What are his damages, you have made a few hundred ferrules worth $10.00 each, it would be ridiculous. The suit would be deemed frivolous in almost any court just due to the lack of real damages and you could sue him for any expenses he may cause you.

The entire burden is on him, any lawyer he would talk to would tell him he could end up owing you and it is not worth pursing. He is just learning the reality of the worthlessness of patents on a product with a very limited market that has very little value. He wasted his money getting such a patent that would be so easy to get around anyway.

What next he wants to claim the patent on wood for a shaft? They give patents now for almost anything as long as you will spend the money and go through the process.
 
bandido said:
IIRC, it's whoever has brought their product to public awareness first and has been publicly documented. Verifiable dated documentation such as magazine ads, interviews about the product, product reviews, etc. can help determine who the originator is. Somebody at one time mention mailing the design documents to himself to get a dated postmark but I doubt that this'll work as the contents aren't date stamped by the postal service.

Some idiot has been flaunting holding a trademark on my ER marking and threatening to ... Unfortunately for him, my trademarks have been published in magazines well before he even started thinking about cues. Just waiting for him to act on his boasting.
Click to expand...

The phenolic tip/ferrule combo goes back years to when a guy was making the "Pipe" jump cue and has been commonly used by cue makers for over 20 years. In a real challenge it would be determined to be common knowledge and not enforceable. He didn't actually invent anything.

It would be like trying to claim to have invented a common item like a dinner plate and expecting to be the only person now allowed to make dinner plates.
 
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He does have a patent on it, ( http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...XT&s1=7097570.PN.&OS=PN/7097570&RS=PN/7097570) however, what about making a phenolic ferrule, and gluing a phenolic tip to it. Would still look like one piece, with the two surfaces being the same, you should not have to worry about them breaking loose, and you avoid his patent. At least until I patent the process, Muahahahahaha! Oh, sorry, just kidding.

Plus you have the added bonus of it still looking like one piece, so he comes back whining and waving his paper, and you have the pleasure of waiting until he takes it to court, and you can explain to the judge how you changed the process. Then collect on the countersuit.
 
i was told by my brother, who is an attourney, if there's a patent you are out of luck. no matter how long you've been doing this you have to stop or deal with a possible law suit. he said it's not how long you've been doing it but who has the "legal" rights to. i would say, figure out a way to improve it or make a small change to it and you might have a leg to stand on.
 
macguy said:
The phenolic tip/ferrule combo goes back years to when a guy was making the "Pipe" jump cue and has been commonly used by cue makers for over 20 years. In a real challenge it would be determined to be common knowledge and not enforceable. He didn't actually invent anything.

It would be like trying to claim to have invented a common item like a dinner plate and expecting to be the only person now allowed to make dinner plates.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the 747, 16 to 18 inches long and 0.625" in diameter?
You're right that that was in existence close to 20 years ago. I'm just commenting to give an idea on how to prove that he was ahead of Mike G.'s in introducing the product or, then again, for Mike to prove that he's ahead.
 
skins said:
i was told by my brother, who is an attourney, if there's a patent you are out of luck. no matter how long you've been doing this you have to stop or deal with a possible law suit. he said it's not how long you've been doing it but who has the "legal" rights to. i would say, figure out a way to improve it or make a small change to it and you might have a leg to stand on.
Click to expand...

I just read the whole thing and it is a joke he wasted his money on that patent. The object is to have the ball jump and break better then a conventional tip. This can be accomplished in so many ways he has nothing. Just glue a phenolic tip on a phenolic ferrule does the trick. He is specific that it is one piece so make it two piece.

Take a neutral phenolic material and sleeve it or make it in any of a hundred different ways as long as you accomplish the same thing. He has what is a silly patent. The best thing to do is to improve on what he has anyway maybe a different material or design. It is funny if I read it correctly it says the common cue tip is made of wood.
 
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Do a search on this forum

This topic has previously been discussed.

In that thread I made statements of fact showing that he patented something that had already been in use for a minimum of a 100 yrs. A pool stick.....LOL..........Actually if you read the patent PENDING( it is still pending ) it does not state what the material is if i recall. All it states from memory is that the material is of "one-piece construction". So bottom line cues at one point in history did not have a ferrule or a tip, and where does this stand to a frivulous patent.



Edited section---------after reading the patent. I see where is states not only phenolic, but basically any material including leather. Humorously even the way the cue is built is patented. I might add built with only a few different touches than any normal cue.

So what truly is he trying to patent? The cue stick? The game of pool? The 100yrs of cue making history? The cue makers before him that tried phenolic as a ferrule?

LOL
 
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Snap9 said:
This topic has previously been discussed.

In that thread I made statements of fact showing that he patented something that had already been in use for a minimum of a 100 yrs. A pool stick.....LOL..........Actually if you read the patent PENDING( it is still pending ) it does not state what the material is if i recall. All it states from memory is that the material is of "one-piece construction". So bottom line cues at one point in history did not have a ferrule or a tip, and where does this stand to a frivulous patent.

Oh well, let him sue me or attempt to. My lawyers would enjoy getting paid by someone other than me. LOL
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What is described as a jump break cue was already patented many years ago. If you look at the pictures accompanying the patent you are looking at a jump break cue. It was originally designed to be a cue where the butt unscrewed a ways down from the joint so you could shoot when a wall or other obstruction was in the way.

I have a copy of the patent along with a bunch of other patents. I am sure you could find it but I will look it up and show the number. I have it in a box somewhere but I can find it pretty easily.
 
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I heard about this a few weeks ago from my friend in North Carolina. He said Mike G. came into a pool hall he was at and was telling him something to the effect of he was gonna go after any of the big companies that used this style of ferrule on the cues they sold. I guess to more or less try and get a nice settlement check out of the deal....Just passing along what I heard... I say just alter the design a little..........Dave



http://members.cox.net/albrechtcustomcues/
 
macguy said:
What is described as a jump break cue was already patented many years ago. If you look at the pictures accompanying the patent you are looking at a jump break cue. It was originally designed to be a cue where the but unscrewed a ways down from the joint so you could shoot when a wall or other obstruction was in the way.

I have a copy of the patent along with a bunch of other patents. I am sure you could find it but I will look it up and show the number. I have it in a box somewhere but I can find it pretty easily.
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I found it in my file. The number is 4231574 below is a link. I don't know if it shows the drawings I have but it is essentially a jump break cue and was patented years ago. I didn't know it would be so easy to look up, I have a bunch of pool related patents that are really nuts. I'll post the numbers. It's fun to look at some of this stuff, you wonder what was in these peoples minds.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=4231574.PN.&OS=PN/4231574&RS=PN/4231574
 
macguy said:
I found it in my file. The number is 4231574 below is a link. I don't know if it shows the drawings I have but it is essentially a jump break cue and was patented years ago. I didn't know it would be so easy to look up, I have a bunch of pool related patents that are really nuts. I'll post the numbers. It's fun to look at some of this stuff, you wonder what was in these peoples minds.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=4231574.PN.&OS=PN/4231574&RS=PN/4231574
Click to expand...

That sounds like a patent for a uniloc type joint...
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Patents

A professor of mine in college had a patent for the extraction of sulphur compounds using steam pressurized wells. It was a simple idea, and basically was injecting steam into well, softening the soil and sulphur bearing compounds, and extracting the liquid with pressure.

Another individual, who looked at this patent, made a simple change, added a chemical compound to make the liquid less viscous, and therefore changed the process enough that the first patent was no longer valid since it was now a obsolete process.

If you can show that your idea is different from what is out there, you should be good to go, regardless of a patent. If it is worth that much money to you, then by all means hire a lawyer.

Brian
 
Rangercap said:
A professor of mine in college had a patent for the extraction of sulphur compounds using steam pressurized wells. It was a simple idea, and basically was injecting steam into well, softening the soil and sulphur bearing compounds, and extracting the liquid with pressure.

Another individual, who looked at this patent, made a simple change, added a chemical compound to make the liquid less viscous, and therefore changed the process enough that the first patent was no longer valid since it was now a obsolete process.

If you can show that your idea is different from what is out there, you should be good to go, regardless of a patent. If it is worth that much money to you, then by all means hire a lawyer.

Brian
Click to expand...
It would be very easy to tweak it and make MGs useless patent even more useless....;) :D :D
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patents are a wonderful thing

Patents are a wonderful thing, if you have millions to defend them and the people violating them have millions to win. Otherwise the only winners on either side are the lawyers. A friend had almost 90 patents, he made money on less than five. Having worked in R&D I could go on forever about patents but it is easier to get to the heart of the matter. Make a 10 or 15% change and you can get your own patent on his product which overrides his patent.

Anyone here want to define what constitutes what percentage of change? Normally color doesn't. After that you start getting on shaky ground. The patent lawyers love this, tons of gray area so that they can burn up endless hours in research and litigation. It really comes down to a court opinion so it is whoever can best argue their case.

It isn't the material I use or even that it is or isn't one piece, it is the multi-stage curing process I use to prepare the tip for use. This is highly proprietary and a trade secret so I don't have to disclose it. However it clearly represents a major change from anything anyone else may have patented. Disagree? Prove it!

Hu
 
He had told me at an event I was working at that I couldn't make my owne phenolic ferrules and install them. But if I purchased them from him it was ok to put them on.
What next? He will be able to tell the companies that make this product who they can and can't sell it to.
OH MY GOSH Probition of Phenolic Rod.
 
Macguys first post was right on imo. The patent is worthless.

Forget about if the patent should have been granted or not. That is irrelevant. The thing is, he won't sue anyone. What for? If you are a custom guy, and you installed 100 phenolic break/jump ferrules last year, you made $3500 (Assuming you charged $35 each). That means the most his damages could be is $3500. Do you really think ANYONE will go to the trouble of suing for this? No lawyer would even take the case. The only possible exception is if one of the big production companies were using the product. Then it would probably be easiest just to sell them the rights to the patent, rather than sue them.

On the same note, I think almost any pool related patent is worthless. There just isn't enough money in it to first: spend money to get a patent, and second: spend money to protect it from violators.

I work in R&D at an consumer's product company. We don't even bother suing people in direct violation of our patents, unless they are a major competitor. A little guy, we will just ignore.

Its all about the lawyers getting the money.

Disclaimer 1: I am not a lawyer.
Disclaimer 2: Your ethics may vary.
 
A little off subject so please forgive me but after working with the new white diamond tip, I don't understand why anyone would still want to do phenolic ferrules. On the subject of this thread, I wouldn't do a solid phenolic ferrule/tip out of respect for Mike.
 
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