Patent Law Help
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http://cgi.ebay.com/12-Phenolic-Tip...2QQihZ011QQcategoryZ21210QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Wonder about this ebay seller...
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-PHENOLIC-FER...3QQihZ017QQcategoryZ75188QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Or this one....
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Wonder about this ebay seller...
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-PHENOLIC-FER...3QQihZ017QQcategoryZ75188QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Or this one....
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i just "skimmed" over all that patent stuff.......lol.....and people get PAID to write that bs ???
in the last few minutes, i "invented" 3 new improvements to his patent.
but i ain't tellin you guys till i get patents on it.......so.......
i just gotta hit a big lotto to come up with about $50,000 that i can just p/away. and then waint bout 5 years or so.......
lol..........yeh right
in the last few minutes, i "invented" 3 new improvements to his patent.
but i ain't tellin you guys till i get patents on it.......so.......
i just gotta hit a big lotto to come up with about $50,000 that i can just p/away. and then waint bout 5 years or so.......
lol..........yeh right
Abs???
<quote>What is claimed is:
1. A jump/break cue for jumping a cue ball and for breaking a rack of pool balls, said jump/break cue comprising: a shaft having a striking end region and a second end, wherein said shaft is progressively tapered so as to be more narrow towards said striking end region than said second end, said shaft comprising a tenon extending in one direction from said striking end region; and a one-piece ferrule-tip permanently disposed on said tenon of said striking end region of said shaft, said ferrule-tip comprising a cylindrical body extending in the one direction to form a hemispherically rounded crown and bore for permanently attaching said ferrule-tip to said tenon, said crown serving as the striking tip for a selected one of striking a cue ball and causing the cue ball to jump in response to the cue being inclined relative to a table where the cue ball is resting or driving the cue ball into a rack of balls to break the rack, wherein said ferrule-tip is made of a material having a hardness of 100 on the Shore-D scale.
2. The jump/break cue according to claim 1, wherein said material is ABS.
3. A jump/break cue according to claim 1 wherein said tenon has a threaded pin extending from the shaft, the bore of said ferrule-tip is threaded to mate with said threaded pin to permanently attach said ferrule-tip to said tenon.</quote>
Thank you for posting a copy of his patent!!! Please refer to claim #2... Did anyone else notice that this patent applies specifically to ABS for use in the ferrule design? ABS is a SOFT, extruded plastic, and is nothing like the canvas phenolic that I have been using. I think I found my leg to stand on...
<quote>What is claimed is:
1. A jump/break cue for jumping a cue ball and for breaking a rack of pool balls, said jump/break cue comprising: a shaft having a striking end region and a second end, wherein said shaft is progressively tapered so as to be more narrow towards said striking end region than said second end, said shaft comprising a tenon extending in one direction from said striking end region; and a one-piece ferrule-tip permanently disposed on said tenon of said striking end region of said shaft, said ferrule-tip comprising a cylindrical body extending in the one direction to form a hemispherically rounded crown and bore for permanently attaching said ferrule-tip to said tenon, said crown serving as the striking tip for a selected one of striking a cue ball and causing the cue ball to jump in response to the cue being inclined relative to a table where the cue ball is resting or driving the cue ball into a rack of balls to break the rack, wherein said ferrule-tip is made of a material having a hardness of 100 on the Shore-D scale.
2. The jump/break cue according to claim 1, wherein said material is ABS.
3. A jump/break cue according to claim 1 wherein said tenon has a threaded pin extending from the shaft, the bore of said ferrule-tip is threaded to mate with said threaded pin to permanently attach said ferrule-tip to said tenon.</quote>
Thank you for posting a copy of his patent!!! Please refer to claim #2... Did anyone else notice that this patent applies specifically to ABS for use in the ferrule design? ABS is a SOFT, extruded plastic, and is nothing like the canvas phenolic that I have been using. I think I found my leg to stand on...
I thought the same thing, but if you keep reading he elaborates later in the patent description:
"Ferrule-tip 12, having a threaded screw 20 discussed below, has a threaded bore to be screwed onto screw 20, as also discussed below. Ferrule tip 12 is a cylindrical member comprising a phenolic ferrule combination, such as a C-grade phenolic. Of course ferrule-tip 12 can alternatively comprise any other resilient material, which can be a plastic such as polyethylene, polypropylene, polycarbonate, acrylic, DELRIN.RTM., acetal, Teflon.RTM., nylon, phenolic, such as C-grade phenolic, ABS, vinyl, PVC, VIVAK.RTM., a hard, rubber, or leather, all of which are conventional in the art. The only time leather would work is if it were very thin and covers a hard ferrule so that the energy being transferred is from the ferrule underneath the leather. Ferrule-tip 12 comprises a cylindrical outer surface 12a having a longitudinal centerline being in alignment with the longitudinal centerline of shaft 14, thereby causing outer surface 14a and outer surface 12a to be aligned. Screw 20 is preferably 1/2 inch long with 5/16--18 threads, and the bore of ferrule tip 12 has mating threads. Ferrule-tip 12 can be permanently affixed to shaft 14 without a threaded screw as well, such as by securing ferrule-tip 12 to a tenon extending upwardly from shaft 12 in the same manner as threaded screw 20 and stabilizing ferrule-tip 12 thereon by any manner conventional in the art, such as by glue. Such a method of permanently securing a ferrule to the shaft is known in the art and so a more detailed description thereof is herewith omitted for the sake of brevity."
Now he does reference a "cylinder", so if you tapered the ferrule tip at all, you come up with a "conic section" which may void the patent. Having said this he does mention having the same centerline as the shaft which may take care of this little loophole as well, it's a little too much for my head this morning.
"Ferrule-tip 12, having a threaded screw 20 discussed below, has a threaded bore to be screwed onto screw 20, as also discussed below. Ferrule tip 12 is a cylindrical member comprising a phenolic ferrule combination, such as a C-grade phenolic. Of course ferrule-tip 12 can alternatively comprise any other resilient material, which can be a plastic such as polyethylene, polypropylene, polycarbonate, acrylic, DELRIN.RTM., acetal, Teflon.RTM., nylon, phenolic, such as C-grade phenolic, ABS, vinyl, PVC, VIVAK.RTM., a hard, rubber, or leather, all of which are conventional in the art. The only time leather would work is if it were very thin and covers a hard ferrule so that the energy being transferred is from the ferrule underneath the leather. Ferrule-tip 12 comprises a cylindrical outer surface 12a having a longitudinal centerline being in alignment with the longitudinal centerline of shaft 14, thereby causing outer surface 14a and outer surface 12a to be aligned. Screw 20 is preferably 1/2 inch long with 5/16--18 threads, and the bore of ferrule tip 12 has mating threads. Ferrule-tip 12 can be permanently affixed to shaft 14 without a threaded screw as well, such as by securing ferrule-tip 12 to a tenon extending upwardly from shaft 12 in the same manner as threaded screw 20 and stabilizing ferrule-tip 12 thereon by any manner conventional in the art, such as by glue. Such a method of permanently securing a ferrule to the shaft is known in the art and so a more detailed description thereof is herewith omitted for the sake of brevity."
Now he does reference a "cylinder", so if you tapered the ferrule tip at all, you come up with a "conic section" which may void the patent. Having said this he does mention having the same centerline as the shaft which may take care of this little loophole as well, it's a little too much for my head this morning.
patent - FYI
A patent can contain as much additional information as you want. The description and additional information are only meant to provide background or further examples of the said product. It does not mean that this info is directly relevant to the patent. The real "meat" of the patent is found within the "claims" section. These are the only points that can really be argued in court.
A patent can contain as much additional information as you want. The description and additional information are only meant to provide background or further examples of the said product. It does not mean that this info is directly relevant to the patent. The real "meat" of the patent is found within the "claims" section. These are the only points that can really be argued in court.
Just remember, in America if you are sued in Civil Court, it's up to you to prove your innocent. This isn't Judge Judy junk. If he has a lawyer on retainer it's pretty cheap to file a suit against you and then serve you with papers. You have to provide your own attorney to defend yourself and that ain't cheap. And don't think damages are limited to what you have sold. They can get real creative on damages. It's not how much you made, but how much they think they lost by you damaging their patent. As per what Mike Webb said, I won't do any out of courtesy to Mike. And as he also said their are other ways to skin a cat. You can talk all about changing things and beating the patent, but for what little you will make out of it and the possible down size. Heck do the arithmetic.
As I said in an early post, I'm not a lawyer, but I have been thru several patent law suits(golf industry related) several years ago. I can tell you personally, being served papers will ruin your day. Fortunately the Corporation I was president of had errs and admissions insurance and they ate most of the fees. And yes they were B.S. patents and no I didn't think we were violating them, but tell that to the judge.
As I said in an early post, I'm not a lawyer, but I have been thru several patent law suits(golf industry related) several years ago. I can tell you personally, being served papers will ruin your day. Fortunately the Corporation I was president of had errs and admissions insurance and they ate most of the fees. And yes they were B.S. patents and no I didn't think we were violating them, but tell that to the judge.
I am doing a treated leather tip that is almost as hard as phenolic so I have no reason to continue making combos. But I have little respect for this patent, because I am one of those who built the jump rods with one piece combos long before Mike made the Sledgehammers. It is not worth trying to prove this in court as I have found something I feel is better, so why bother. Others always say they heard so and so did it before Mike did. Well I am not working off of what I heard as I 100% definitely built a one piece ferrule tip combo several years before Mike did it. I told him this a few years ago also. So the idea is not original to him or I as others did it before me.Michael Webb said:
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
cueman said:
Hi Chris
A lot of people did the jump rod including myself. Mike is the one who got the patent on it and as his friend, I respect him for it and act accordingly.
You don't think Predator was the first one to hollow out a shaft do you, there were doing in the 50's in Canada but who's got the patent. My point to all of this is:
If we don't respect each other as craftsmen in the things we do, why should our customers. This entire forum especially has gotten so disrespectful. People think nothing about coming on here and trashing someone or the products they are selling or making a small modification so they can sell something too, just to short change the guy who was smart enough to market it. I could run off a list in this industry but that would really make some people jump and scream, would it solve anything, NO SIR it wouldn't, would it make me feel better, It's possible! Most importantly, would it make me a better person, Absolutely not, which is why I don't do it.
Mike (and Chris),
I think the anonimity of the internet has caused much of the disrespect and rudeness that you see on forums and emails. I doubt if we were all physically in a room that we would treat each other with such nastiness. I'm actually becoming numb to it, much like violence on television. It causes me some concern that I am losing some of my humanity. I don't have the answers.
I'm in full concurrence to respecting craftsmen and thier craft. On this forum, I consider you veteran cue makers both craftsmen and artist, whose art and craft deserve respect. You have mine. You are also correct to point out that if an innovator doesn't protect thier creations, someone will copy it and claim it for themselves. Patents, trademarks and copyrights are the tools for that, and should be used. The Founders of this country recognized that and included it in the Constitution
Anyway . . . let's talk patents! (without getting into the specifics of the MG patent) The U.S. patent office has issued over 7 million patents. At the Federal Circuit level, about 50% of those patents challenged have been found invalid. The reasons vary, but one fairly common theme is that the patent office isn't staffed with experts in every field. The patent examiner relies upon the applicants statements of novelty, unobviousness, inventiveness, etc., and will issue a patent unless they can PROVE otherwise. It's a fairly high standard, so patents are frequently issued that probably should not have been. You'd be surprised what I've seen slip through the patent office.
By analogy, if I were your neighbor, and I built a fence (in good faith) between our yards, but later it was found out that I actually built the fence deep into your yard, would you respect the fence? Am I entitled to that portion of property between the fence and the actual property line? If I know for certain that I put my fence where it didn't belong, am I wrong to claim it anyway? An invalid patent claim is a claim to 'property' that the patent holder is not entitled.
Alan
I think the anonimity of the internet has caused much of the disrespect and rudeness that you see on forums and emails. I doubt if we were all physically in a room that we would treat each other with such nastiness. I'm actually becoming numb to it, much like violence on television. It causes me some concern that I am losing some of my humanity. I don't have the answers.
I'm in full concurrence to respecting craftsmen and thier craft. On this forum, I consider you veteran cue makers both craftsmen and artist, whose art and craft deserve respect. You have mine. You are also correct to point out that if an innovator doesn't protect thier creations, someone will copy it and claim it for themselves. Patents, trademarks and copyrights are the tools for that, and should be used. The Founders of this country recognized that and included it in the Constitution
Anyway . . . let's talk patents! (without getting into the specifics of the MG patent) The U.S. patent office has issued over 7 million patents. At the Federal Circuit level, about 50% of those patents challenged have been found invalid. The reasons vary, but one fairly common theme is that the patent office isn't staffed with experts in every field. The patent examiner relies upon the applicants statements of novelty, unobviousness, inventiveness, etc., and will issue a patent unless they can PROVE otherwise. It's a fairly high standard, so patents are frequently issued that probably should not have been. You'd be surprised what I've seen slip through the patent office.
By analogy, if I were your neighbor, and I built a fence (in good faith) between our yards, but later it was found out that I actually built the fence deep into your yard, would you respect the fence? Am I entitled to that portion of property between the fence and the actual property line? If I know for certain that I put my fence where it didn't belong, am I wrong to claim it anyway? An invalid patent claim is a claim to 'property' that the patent holder is not entitled.
Alan
Mike,Michael Webb said:
The point is that in order to get a patent you have to proclaim that your idea is original. If it is not original it is not supposed to be patentable. His idea was not original. So he basically stole something away from all the other cuemakers who had done it before him. Why in the world should I respect that?
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
cueman said:
I agree 1,000 percent. I started to comment on Mikes analogy but decided to leave it alone an let someone else bring up this fact.
What would you think if 2 guys invent something and then one of them sneaks out and gets a patent on the item and then comes back and tells his partner that he cannot any longer produce this invention since he got the patent? Would you say that he is an upstanding individual who deserves respect from his ex-partner or would he be considered a typical low-life looking out for #1 at his partners expense.
Patent
It would seem to me that innovation would protect the innovator. If someone wants to pattent a phenolic cylinder, then good luck. It is quite another issue if he is truly an inovator. Concerning woodworking, there are few truely new innovations, thus common knowledge is just that, common! At some point, someone has to say the emporor has no clothes. The real question is: "Does this serve the billiard industry, or myself?" I truely hope that in the end we may all be known as serving the industry or else we are no different than any other con man. I do, however, thank all the different poeple for expanding on the issue of patents. Sincerely, Kent
It would seem to me that innovation would protect the innovator. If someone wants to pattent a phenolic cylinder, then good luck. It is quite another issue if he is truly an inovator. Concerning woodworking, there are few truely new innovations, thus common knowledge is just that, common! At some point, someone has to say the emporor has no clothes. The real question is: "Does this serve the billiard industry, or myself?" I truely hope that in the end we may all be known as serving the industry or else we are no different than any other con man. I do, however, thank all the different poeple for expanding on the issue of patents. Sincerely, Kent
I have stepped away from using them Myself anyway, before I even heard mention of a patent. I was more concerned with the breaking ability then the jumping ability, so I have moved towards a treated leather tip also. I have been breaking with a solid ferrule/tip combo for a while, and personally I'm not really impressed. They seem to depend on the speed of the break too much for My taste, and My cueball control afterwards is not very good IMO. To put It simply I don't care for the May West break (all Bust and no balls), they spread the balls well, but due to the loss of control, It's anyones guess when they will find a pocket, not to mention cueball control after the break. The inconsistency is an issue for Me, altough sometimes I had good luck with the one piece, just never know what to expect. I can spread the balls full table with almost every break, moving the majority of the rack on the headstring side, and still not make a ball at times, other times I'm pocketing several balls, altough have no cueball control, and that's just not enough for me. I still like the hard phenolic as a ferrule, just prefer a good leather tip for breaking, and feel more in control with them. I have done some this way for a few customers, and all were very satisfied with the results as far as I know of. Some have Me convert their one pieces in this way also. I have not used the white diamonds but have heard for sometime that they are good, altough I have no personal experiences with them. I'm not saying the one piece is a bad design, because they do move the balls well, just that I have given It more then a fair shake,put My time in with it, and personally It's not for Me.
I first did one the way I am now as a customer request, and that person liked it so much they practically made Me try it out in league. I broke and ran the rack the first time I tried It. I felt bad though Because the customer was on the opposing team, but I am so glad they talked Me into trying It, because it works better for My style of break. I still have to make one for Myself though. My next break stick will be built with one. I've done several of them. but still have'nt put one together for Myself.
Greg C
I first did one the way I am now as a customer request, and that person liked it so much they practically made Me try it out in league. I broke and ran the rack the first time I tried It. I felt bad though Because the customer was on the opposing team, but I am so glad they talked Me into trying It, because it works better for My style of break. I still have to make one for Myself though.
My next break stick will be built with one. I've done several of them. but still have'nt put one together for Myself. Greg C
cueman said:
I would say the problem is more with the system and I certainly respect your veiws, Maybe I'm just to easy on the subject of phenolic in general. I do everything with my one cue and shaft.
I think you nailed it
I think you nailed it. Hard to blame anyone for using the system the way it is set up to be used.
However this is the other side of the coin. I had an idea stolen from me a few years back. Fortunately the proto-type that the idea was stolen from was only a partial unit and a simplified version. When and if I decide to, I will build the full version and dare the jackass that stole it to sue if he feels lucky. I had the screaming reds about it for a few months though and would have probably seen how many teeth I could remove with one shot had I met the guy face to face at an event during that time period. I still see a little red when I read a glowing review of "his" innovation.
Hu
I think you nailed it. Hard to blame anyone for using the system the way it is set up to be used.
However this is the other side of the coin. I had an idea stolen from me a few years back. Fortunately the proto-type that the idea was stolen from was only a partial unit and a simplified version. When and if I decide to, I will build the full version and dare the jackass that stole it to sue if he feels lucky. I had the screaming reds about it for a few months though and would have probably seen how many teeth I could remove with one shot had I met the guy face to face at an event during that time period. I still see a little red when I read a glowing review of "his" innovation.
Hu
Michael Webb said: