Pausing at the cue ball vs pausing on the back stroke

[lfigueroa]

I just got back from Q-sharks, where I spent four hours watching players and looking for backstroke pauses.

I watched...

Brandon Shuff
Warren Kiamco
Stevie Moore
Beau Runningen
Karl Boyes
Rodney Morris
Rory Hendrickson
Darren Appleton
Dennis Orcullo

and others

Plenty of set and finish pauses, but no backstroke pauses --with the possible exception of Appleton, who may have had a slight one...

I also watched Stevie Moore pretty carefully for a couple hours looking for any evidence he does any kind of pivot-to-aim method. Negative.

Right. After all the many tournaments I've attended I have a real hard time squaring this SPF thing with what I've personally seen. It's just not there in the real world of excellent pool players.

And on the Stevie Moore observation: that confirms what I recall watching at the US Open 10ball in Vegas this year. I was wondering how that sync'd up with the lip service he gives to CTE...

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The conscious pause at the end of the final backstroke is a technique that has been employed by enough major players that players who are developing their game owe it to themselves to give it a serious try. If, after a serious try, it doesn't work then discard it the same as one might try and discard the slip stroke... or the technique of letting go of the cue during the forward stroke.

I think this is a fair approach: try it and if it works great. Because, clearly, it can help some. But if it doesn't, throw it away. Because just as clearly, it's not for everyone.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mikepage]

Right. After all the many tournaments I've attended I have a real hard time squaring this SPF thing with what I've personally seen. It's just not there in the real world of excellent pool players.

And on the Stevie Moore observation: that confirms what I recall watching at the US Open 10ball in Vegas this year. I was wondering how that sync'd up with the lip service he gives to CTE...

Lou Figueroa

My point about SPF, though, is that the two key pauses are at S and F,

kinda like SET, "PAUSE," FINISH

If you listen to the key SPF proponents, they will say that EVERYBODY pauses at the backstroke. By their use of the word, pause is somethig you must do transitioning from backward to forward motion. So in this sense, I was watching several pretty good SPF strokes.

 

[sfleinen]

SPF waters muddied by dual meaning of the word "pause"

My point about SPF, though, is that the two key pauses are at S and F,

kinda like SET, "PAUSE," FINISH

If you listen to the key SPF proponents, they will say that EVERYBODY pauses at the backstroke. By their use of the word, pause is somethig you must do transitioning from backward to forward motion. So in this sense, I was watching several pretty good SPF strokes.

Folks:

Maybe I'm missing something (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), but I always thought SPF stood for:

• et -- at the cue ball
  [*][P]ause -- at the cue ball
  [*][F]inish -- at your stroke's conclusion / final resting place (on the cloth) through/past the cue ball

If my understanding is correct, it goes from pausing at the cue ball (for the purposes of doing the final subconscious "all systems go" checks) before pulling the trigger, ending up at the finish position, and staying there in the final finish position to "check your work" while still in that position (i.e. not popping up). Nowhere do I see the pause referring to any step in the backstroke itself.

I've not heard any instructors advocating an intentional lingering pause on the backstroke (a la Allison Fisher, Buddy Hall, or Cliff Joyner). The only requirement I've ever heard them advocate is a "smooth transition from backstroke to forward stroke," which I think is tantamount to a good cue delivery.

Now granted, some SPF instructors are misinformed as to the definition of what the word "pause" means in that backstroke instance. I.e. that precise moment in time when backward motion ends and forward motion begins, to them, is a "pause," which is an incorrect understanding of that word's meaning. To them, that precise moment in time is a "pause" if you were to stop time to see it -- but that in itself is flawed, because by stopping time, the "pause" is then introduced artificially, because time itself doesn't stop, hesitate, or stall. I've mentioned in the past in this thread (here and here) that it's entirely possible to have NO PAUSE in the transition from backward motion to forward motion if the stroke itself is elliptical (even slightly), which is more common than many people think. And it's a shame, because these instructors themselves are guilty of muddying the waters for their own SPF definition by even using the word "pause" to describe something in the backstroke action.

Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[mikepage]

Folks:

Maybe I'm missing something (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), but I always thought SPF stood for:

• et -- at the cue ball
  [*][P]ause -- at the cue ball
  [*][F]inish -- at your stroke's conclusion / final resting place (on the cloth) through/past the cue ball

If my understanding is correct, it goes from pausing at the cue ball (for the purposes of doing the final subconscious "all systems go" checks) before pulling the trigger, ending up at the finish position, and staying there in the final finish position to "check your work" while still in that position (i.e. not popping up). Nowhere do I see the pause referring to any step in the backstroke itself.

You are not right. P refers to the backstroke "pause."

I've not heard any instructors advocating an intentional lingering pause on the backstroke (a la Allison Fisher, Buddy Hall, or Cliff Joyner). The only requirement I've ever heard them advocate is a "smooth transition from backstroke to forward stroke," which I think is tantamount to a good cue delivery.

Now granted, some SPF instructors are misinformed as to the definition of what the word "pause" means in that backstroke instance. I.e. that precise moment in time when backward motion ends and forward motion begins, to them, is a "pause," which is an incorrect understanding of that word's meaning. To them, that precise moment in time is a "pause" if you were to stop time to see it -- but that in itself is flawed, because by stopping time, the "pause" is then introduced artificially, because time itself doesn't stop, hesitate, or stall. I've mentioned in the past in this thread (here and here) that it's entirely possible to have NO PAUSE in the transition from backward motion to forward motion if the stroke itself is elliptical (even slightly), which is more common than many people think. And it's a shame, because these instructors themselves are guilty of muddying the waters for their own SPF definition by even using the word "pause" to describe something in the backstroke action.

Thoughts?
-Sean

It's possible to have no pause even if the stroke is not elliptical.

Some instructors advocate a distinct pause at the backstroke for training purposes. That is, when a student is learning the elements of the stroke, it's good to be able to break it down and assess certain elements at different phases.

My point is these same instructors are less concerned about the pause remaining later provided there is a smooth transition.

 

[randyg]

Folks:

Maybe I'm missing something (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), but I always thought SPF stood for:

• et -- at the cue ball
  [*][P]ause -- at the cue ball
  [*][F]inish -- at your stroke's conclusion / final resting place (on the cloth) through/past the cue ball

If my understanding is correct, it goes from pausing at the cue ball (for the purposes of doing the final subconscious "all systems go" checks) before pulling the trigger, ending up at the finish position, and staying there in the final finish position to "check your work" while still in that position (i.e. not popping up). Nowhere do I see the pause referring to any step in the backstroke itself.

I've not heard any instructors advocating an intentional lingering pause on the backstroke (a la Allison Fisher, Buddy Hall, or Cliff Joyner). The only requirement I've ever heard them advocate is a "smooth transition from backstroke to forward stroke," which I think is tantamount to a good cue delivery.

Now granted, some SPF instructors are misinformed as to the definition of what the word "pause" means in that backstroke instance. I.e. that precise moment in time when backward motion ends and forward motion begins, to them, is a "pause," which is an incorrect understanding of that word's meaning. To them, that precise moment in time is a "pause" if you were to stop time to see it -- but that in itself is flawed, because by stopping time, the "pause" is then introduced artificially, because time itself doesn't stop, hesitate, or stall. I've mentioned in the past in this thread (here and here) that it's entirely possible to have NO PAUSE in the transition from backward motion to forward motion if the stroke itself is elliptical (even slightly), which is more common than many people think. And it's a shame, because these instructors themselves are guilty of muddying the waters for their own SPF definition by even using the word "pause" to describe something in the backstroke action.

Thoughts?
-Sean

Sean, looks like you have it pretty close:
SET: What am I doing at the cue ball? Need to know three things.
PAUSE: How was my transition? Jerky or fluid?
FINISH: Did I complete my stroke?


SPF Instructors use the word "pause" to describe the transition! Whether or not one has a definite pause or a un-noticeable pause makes no difference to a SPF Instructor. It's the quality not the time!!!!!

In school we use the word pause to identify part of your stroke.

PAUSE: From the dictionary.
"A time interval during which there is a temporary cessation of something"

Thanks
Randyg
Father of the SPF Family

 

[randyg]

You are not right. P refers to the backstroke "pause."



It's possible to have no pause even if the stroke is not elliptical.

Some instructors advocate a distinct pause at the backstroke for training purposes. That is, when a student is learning the elements of the stroke, it's good to be able to break it down and assess certain elements at different phases.

My point is these same instructors are less concerned about the pause remaining later provided there is a smooth transition.

Well stated Mike....thanks.
randyg

 

[JoeW]

I am clearly in the minority here as an advocate of the “back pause” but let me throw one more into the mix. Pausing at the cue ball is primarily about checking the tip position. Pausing at the back of the stroke is about checking the total alignment from the back of the cue stick to the contact point.

I have no problem with the idea that the duration of the pause varies for each shot. At times it is, or appears to be, non-existent. The brain processes that are used for checking the total shot line from the back position may be something the pros have learned over time and subsequently minimized as they develop. Then again perhaps some learn this shift in brain processing and never do pause.

I realize that is an unfair statement as it cannot be verified. None-the-less, in my experience there is a change in brain function when I learn to focus on, be aware of, or allow my subconscious to enter this final aiming and stroking process. Because I can see a real improvement I use words that attempt to convey the feeling of what is going on. The archer analogy and the new dance step routine are but ways to say that something changes in the brain processing. Perhaps the pause is or can be learned and then discarded once the aiming process is learned.

I think the essence of the issue is the shift in aiming perspective, the pause can be minimized as needed. I can only say, from the position of an n of 1, that it is worth some effort to learn this step.

Someone noted that pros tend to have a slower back stroke on the final stroke relative to other players. Perhaps this slow final back stroke replaces the pause or has been learned in lieu of the pause.

 

[lfigueroa]

Next time you see Buddy, don't forget to tell him he's doing it wrong. :wink:

For some it's great, for some it's not. To each their own.

I couldn't have said it better.

Oh, wait... I did: "I think this is a fair approach: try it and if it works great. Because, clearly, it can help some. But if it doesn't, throw it away. Because just as clearly, it's not for everyone."

Lou Figueroa

 

[JimS]

I didn't start playing until 10 years ago.. except for a couple years as a teen.

When I started at age 57 I had taken golf lessons for a few years and I KNEW the importance of having the fundamentals done correctly... pre shot routine, set up, back swing, position at the top, dropping the club to the inside line, follow through, etc.

Building on that understanding I figured I probably had learned the game wrong back in 1955 and I decided to begin as a beginner. I took lessons and I was right... I didn't know squat about the right way to approach a pool shot. I drove to Madison Wi, 4.5 hours each way, to see Jeff Carter, as he was the only teacher mentioned by my local mentor, and Jeff taught me the proper fundamentals. I've noticed since that he doesn't always take all of his own advice as he's learned how to adapt those fundamentals to his physical and mental needs and desires. He can do that he's a top pro.

What Scott and Randy, and other teachers are trying to do, (imo) is to show those who are beginning pool how to learn the game and how to construct a solid foundation on which to build their pool game and then when they become more expert they can adapt some parts of those fundamentals to fit their needs and wants. It's a lot more fun to be able to do things reasonably well right from the git-go and fun translates to more play for them.

Like my friend Jeff Carter not all good players follow the spf. They've adapted those fundamentals to fit their game. They have constructed the stance, stroke, aiming technique(s), etc, that fit their needs/wants and they don't necessarily need or want to do everything exactly as it was taught to them back in the day.

Beginners NEED to learn to do it right and then they can adapt those foundation skills to build the game they want to use. They'll pick up ideas from here and there and try them and discard or keep them, and they'll keep doing that as long as they play the game, no matter how good they become, because that's what good players do. They learn and grow and adapt to the needs of their mind and body.

Not all good players will have an intenional pause at the end of the back swing but it's a good fundamental to teach. SPF is an aid to building a stroke/basic game that is under control and repeatable and consistent. As the student's game grows they'll pause even more than they were taught or maybe they'll pause less... even imperceptively.

I applaud the spf guys for getting together and building a set of foundational beginning behaviors for people wanting to learn the game and whose ego is rational to the extent that they can be taught to learn it right.

SPF just rocks as a foundation for newer players to build on. :groucho: :groucho: :groucho: (3 Groucho's trumps 3 taps!... :wink

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, looks like you have it pretty close:
SET: What am I doing at the cue ball? Need to know three things.
PAUSE: How was my transition? Jerky or fluid?
FINISH: Did I complete my stroke?


SPF Instructors use the word "pause" to describe the transition! Whether or not one has a definite pause or a un-noticeable pause makes no difference to a SPF Instructor. It's the quality not the time!!!!!

In school we use the word pause to identify part of your stroke.

PAUSE: From the dictionary.
"A time interval during which there is a temporary cessation of something"

Thanks
Randyg
Father of the SPF Family

Randy:

Thank you for the clarifying explanations of SPF. And you don't need to continually insert the "Father of..." type reminders -- I know who you are.

The bolded part in your post above is what I was getting at. "A time interval" means just that: a measurable length of time during which the cessation "lasts." The "interval" part is KEY. If the action (reversal of, specifically) is instantaneous -- as in an elliptical stroke, there is no interval, and thus there is no pause. Perhaps we're getting into semantics here, but I think it's important, for in most people's minds, when you say to "insert a pause" into something, it means for that cessation of movement to linger for a period of time. If you were to tell me to "pause" at the backstroke, I certainly wouldn't take it to mean that my mere reversal of movement from backstroke to forward stroke "has an automatic pause built-in precisely because of the motion's reversal." (If that were true, *everyone* automatically has a pause in their backstroke no matter their ability, right?) Rather, I'd take it to mean you want me to linger there for a measurable/noticeable period of time, right?

Just something to ponder when using words that have an automatic built-in meaning, like the word "pause."

-Sean

 

[mikepage]

Randy:

Thank you for the clarifying explanations of SPF. And you don't need to continually insert the "Father of..." type reminders -- I know who you are.

The bolded part in your post above is what I was getting at. "A time interval" means just that: a measurable length of time during which the cessation "lasts." The "interval" part is KEY. If the action (reversal of, specifically) is instantaneous -- as in an elliptical stroke, there is no interval, and thus there is no pause. Perhaps we're getting into semantics here, but I think it's important, for in most people's minds, when you say to "insert a pause" into something, it means for that cessation of movement to linger for a period of time. If you were to tell me to "pause" at the backstroke, I certainly wouldn't take it to mean that my mere reversal of movement from backstroke to forward stroke "has an automatic pause built-in precisely because of the motion's reversal." (If that were true, *everyone* automatically has a pause in their backstroke no matter their ability, right?) Rather, I'd take it to mean you want me to linger there for a measurable/noticeable period of time, right?

Just something to ponder when using words that have an automatic built-in meaning, like the word "pause."

-Sean

Yes this is an important point. Here's a mathematics analogy for what we mean by "pause," and the importance of the "time INTERVAL" phrase in the definition.
PAUSE (interval of time) is like LINE SEGMENT (interval of space). We all know a line segment can be an inch long or a millimeter long or a micrometer long or a nanometer long, etc. In other words, a line segment can get as short as you want it, and it's still a line segment. You can blow it up and it would look the same as a longer line segment. It has a direction, like east-west.

A POINT in space is not a short line segment. It's a completely different animal. You blow it up and it's still a point--still has no direction.

The turning point of a pendulum has the velocity go through zero as the object switches from going backward to going forward. But that going through zero is at a POINT in time, not a short line segment in time. There is no TIME INTERVAL.

This isn't important to pool, but it is important to us communicating clearly.

 

[Siz]

PAUSE (interval of time) is like LINE SEGMENT (interval of space). We all know a line segment can be an inch long or a millimeter long or a micrometer long or a nanometer long, etc. In other words, a line segment can get as short as you want it, and it's still a line segment. You can blow it up and it would look the same as a longer line segment. It has a direction, like east-west.

Not convinced. Surely in its normal usage, the word pause cannot be sensibly equated with the mathematical defn of a line segment?

As you say, a line segment can be made arbitrarily small without a mathematician ever stopping thinking of it as a line segment. But if you keep shrinking a pause, then for any observer there will come a point when he does not recognize it as a pause. That point may vary according to the observer (and on what position he has taken in an argument!) but it is there nevertheless.

The definition may be fuzzy but terms such as Sean's 'lingering' are probably as useful as any in discussions around this area

 

[JoeW]

OK so we can all probably agree that a pause means to linger. As Mike implies, how long one lingers depends on the person. For me the important point is what goes on during this lingering? BTW, I think the Pros slow final stroke and the back hand pause may be kissing cousins

I think that much neurological shifting and processing is occurring. Some may have learned to shift gears more quickly than others. Those who have not learned to shift gears (so to speak) are at a disadvantage.

It seems to me that this is a topic that is difficult to discuss because it appears to be based more on introspection than on observable phenomena. Some one in another thread stated that they did not understand how you can aim with the back hand because the back of the stick and the back hand can not be seen. To me this suggests that the person has not learned how to shift gears.

You can’t see your feet when you are dancing but you know where they are. If you have a little coordination you "aim" your feet so as not to step on the other peson. Something similar is available in the area of fine motor coordination and it needs to be learned. It can be learned out of awareness or you can spend some time with the back hand pause or you can learn to draw the stick back slowly on the final stroke.

BTW Set, Linger, Finish just doesn't have the right ring to it

 

[Siz]

OK so we can all probably agree that a pause means to linger. As Mike implies, how long one lingers depends on the person. For me the important point is what goes on during this lingering? BTW, I think the Pros slow final stroke and the back hand pause may be kissing cousins

I think that much neurological shifting and processing is occurring. Some may have learned to shift gears more quickly than others. Those who have not learned to shift gears (so to speak) are at a disadvantage.

It seems to me that this is a topic that is difficult to discuss because it appears to be based more on introspection than on observable phenomena. Some one in another thread stated that they did not understand how you can aim with the back hand because the back of the stick and the back hand can not be seen. To me this suggests that the person has not learned how to shift gears.

You can’t see your feet when you are dancing but you know where they are. If you have a little coordination you "aim" your feet so as not to step on the other peson. Something similar is available in the area of fine motor coordination and it needs to be learned. It can be learned out of awareness or you can spend some time with the back hand pause or you can learn to draw the stick back slowly on the final stroke.

BTW Set, Linger, Finish just doesn't have the right ring to it

I agree that for those who pause ('Set pause' and/or 'back pause') it is what goes on during the pause that is important; in my experience it is no use just going through the motions (although of course in this case the issue may just be a lack of external focus).

And I also agree that it can be difficult to describe what is going on during the pause. It is intangible and can be a little difficult to pin down. It might also vary from individual to individual. (For example, your description of checking alignment during the back pause does not ring any bells with me: For me it is more about settling the mind - almost switching off.)

But I would be a little surprised if having a variable length pause (back or Set) would do anyone any favors in the long run. I have no problem with the pause length condensing or expanding if the overall tempo of of the stroke changes. But otherwise IMHO consistency, and thereby rhythm, is the thing to aim for.

 

[JimS]

But otherwise IMHO consistency, and thereby rhythm, is the thing to aim for.

.... for you. For me the pause is pretty long (a couple seconds) no matter the speed of the rest of the practice strokes or final stroke.

"So which to you prefer? " That was the initial question.. pausing at the cb or at the back of the stroke "So which to you prefer?" Not which is right or which is best.. just a question about preference.

 

[JoeW]

For me both pauses are used and they are used for slightly different things:

The set position is when my arm is perfectly still (not stroking) and I am adjusting the aim of the cue tip through the center of the cue ball relative to the pre-established contact point. Next I adjust for the needed English during this phase. On simple shots aim and English adjustment are nearly simultaneous.*

The back pause is when I am aiming (evaluating) the whole cue stick and everything in front of it.

While I try to turn this entire process over to subconscious control, I am aware of the idea that during the back pause I have little awareness of the adjustments that are or are not made. I simply “linger,” let the brain figure it out and fire when ready. I guess this would be called feel. I have learned that my brain "likes" to linger and this is OK with me as it seems to be a more accomplished shooter when I let it have its way. Of course I had to introduce the concept of lingering before my sub-conscious could say -- "I like it."

It should be understood that this is simply the best verbal report I can give of a process that is non-verbal and thus difficult to describe.

* As I remember the SPF school teaches a variation of my set position. I dare not attempt to state their way of using the Set position because it has been far too long since I attended Randy’s class !

BTW I left out all of the visualization stuff because it is not relevant to this discussion.

 

[JoeW]

I think that one of the reasons the back pause or slowed down final stroke is needed is because the emphasis is on smooth stroking and power estimation during the stroking phase. That is, when we stroke our attention is on other matters. The final stroke with a pause or slowed down stroke is when we again check the aim line to be sure we haven’t moved off of it and to adjust as needed. A slightly more comprehensive description might be set (aim), stroke, pause (to check aim), and finish with a full stop.

It is like I am saying here is the aim, here is the stroke, now put them both together on that last swing.

Hey -- it sounds good and then there is reality

I think that one of the reeasons the brain initially does not like the back pause is based in the idea that initially it feels like there is a loss of power, smoothness, and coordination. With sufficient experience it is learned that none of these things are lost excepting with extreme draw which requires maximum fluidity.

 

[GetMeThere]

Just for the record, I'd like to clearly state my stand on this issue, and have it all in one post:

1) I don't think there exists any good cognitive or sports performance based REASON for anyone to say that an intentional "backstroke pause" MUST be (from fundamental principles) an advantage to the pool player in general.

1a) And btw, golf and pool have substantial differences (from what I understand, I know pathetically little about golf). As I understand it, merely shooting a straight shot/drive in golf in a considerable accomplishment. Whereas I could teach someone who had never seen a pool table how to shoot a CB in basically a straight desired direction in less than five minutes.

2) I don't think a pause MUST BE necessarily bad. I think it's just an EXPRESSION of an individual's cognitive method and process. There is certainly nothing wrong in someone TRYING it, if they feel they could be doing better cue work.

3) Another bit of evidence that it's likely not fundamentally necessary: lots of pros don't do it or vary in their use of it. There ARE some things about stroke that you could probably identify that almost ALL pros have in common (pausing or "setting" with tip near CB is one). From that it would probably be reasonable to conclude that setting is probably "fundamentally necessary" to playing well.

4) The MOST IMPORTANT THING is not being discussed here--and that situation is almost always true on forums, for some reason I'll never fathom--WHY do people miss shots, i.e., what EXACTLY are they doing wrong? The answer is simple. It's one (or a combination) of two things a) They don't know exactly WHERE to hit the CB-OB to pocket the shot (or they don't know how to aim at that spot), b) They aren't able to deliver the CB to the spot they want to.

A fundamental principle of sports performance is to BREAK DOWN a process into it's components. Yet how many people take the few minutes necessary to break down a miss to find out WHY they're missing? It's simple: pick a shot you miss, set it up and shoot it over and over (and over) with concentration--making your best effort to make the shot (oh, and it wouldn't hurt to step away from the table between each trial--so you have to set up from scratch). If, after a short while, you get so you can make that shot near 100%, then the problem isn't your stroke--it's your aim (i.e., you finally figured out exactly where to hit the OB). If you can't seem to make it consistently (but you could easily imagine a pro making it consistently), then your problem IS your stroke: you are UNABLE to send the CB exactly where you want to.

From that point, it's easy to continue breaking down the process in order to locate where exactly the problem lies.

IMO, a lot more effectiveness can be found in that kind of process vs the constant search for a "packaged solution to all your problems," such as "pause after the backstroke."