I really enjoy the fact that neither Randy G or Scott Lee have "bit" during this whole thread. They have their beliefs and their followers, of which I am one, and then there is another concept that has its own followers. I don't think that 7 pages of posts have made many, if any, leave their "camp" of choice.
'Pendulum' Stroke 'Sweet Spot' ?
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I think the biggest issue is that the grip is never discussed in conjunction with the pendulum stroke... It took watching players closely for me to finally understand the importance of letting the grip hand work properly to keep the cue level...
Coming from Baseball prior to pool my grip was always firm on the cue so I naturally ended up with the elbow drop to keep the cue level... I never could understand how the pendulum could keep a cue level for any length of time...
Once I understood the relationship I didn't have a problem making the stroke work pretty well... By then I had too many years doing it the other way to change but I quit arguing about which was better... They both work... If they both work I don't know that either is inherently better it's just which one works better for the individual player.....
Chris
Coming from Baseball prior to pool my grip was always firm on the cue so I naturally ended up with the elbow drop to keep the cue level... I never could understand how the pendulum could keep a cue level for any length of time...
Once I understood the relationship I didn't have a problem making the stroke work pretty well... By then I had too many years doing it the other way to change but I quit arguing about which was better... They both work... If they both work I don't know that either is inherently better it's just which one works better for the individual player.....
Chris
I agree that once a player develops their stroke, they can product similar results.
I think we both would be hard pressed to find an instructor here who would advocate that a player switch strokes if what they are using is working or needs some adjustments.
Because of its simplicity, a pendulum is easier to learn and quicker to master (except for you). This benefits the novice student in being able to develop their stroke and the rest of their game quicker. This is why many here promote the pendulum stroke, and students prefer to learn it.
Gary,
If you read the conclusion in my reply to Beiber, I said, 'To each his own & that is how it should be'.
It was not & is not ever my intent to get someone to leave someone's 'camp'. There should be no 'camps'.
It is about correct & objective information that is real. When someone has ALL of the objective information one can make their own determination.
I am very glad that Neil & Chris/Renfro took the time to get me to see what took Chris many years to understand which seems to have resulted in him choosing something other than the a pendulum stroke. I have had several PM's of similiar stories. That is not to say that 'a' pendulum stroke as I now understand it is the cause. It just means that for some reason, maybe the wrong 'grip action', it was not for them. Before now, I could have seen why, based on what I would have called a 'pendulum' stroke with all of the arcing going on.
Hence, there should be no cookie cutter approach. One size & stroke does not fit all. One should have a choice & understand that there is a choice as everyone is not of the same opinion. I believe Fran Crimi & others teach more than one(1) type of stroke & does not dictate that one is better than the other. I will say that I believe that straight is better than curved when it comes to hitting a specific spot. Hence randyG's assertion peaked my curiousity.
If the strokes of Oyster & Mr. Green are 'pendulum' strokes by definition then my opinion of a 'pendulum' stroke has changed. Those are good strokes with the cue & tip traveling straight for more than a couple of inches. Before this thread I would not have called them 'pendulum' strokes. I would have said they were piston like.
For me the defining factor is the path of the cue stick & the tip. In those strokes they are moving 'straight' with no arcing. I would call that a piston like motion or a hybrid if the tip arcs downward after contact. One could make the same arm movements of a pendulum & have the cue & the tip arcing all over the place. To me that would not be preferrable. That is what my understanding of a true pendulum stroke was. That is why I asked for an explanation for the assertion that randyG made. I have now gotten an explantion & the answer is in the 'grip action'. I have been doing that for many, many years. My stroke may actually be a 'pendulum' stroke in many instances by my new understanding but I have NEVER given any thought to my elbow. If it drops to get or keep the cue & tip moving straight either before, during, or after conact, then that is what I want. My mind & body will do what ever is natural to do to accomplish what is the focus of my desire, which is to send the cue straight into & through contact of the cue ball.
I was not baiting anyone... but I would have thought that randyG would have supported his assertion with what seems to be a simple explanation that I have not seen in my 11 months on AZB. To simply say one should have a loose grip does not get it done in my opionion. I & others can have the cue sit in the 'craddle' of my fingers with no closure around the cue at all, as loose as can be & shoot with a fixed elbow of a 'pendulum' stroke & not get the same cue path as did Oyster & Mr. Green.
The fact that you are in a 'camp' is part of the problem that I see on AZB. Simple misunderstandings or disagreements turn into factions of 'war' because some want a 'following' & others want to defend being a follower. I believe Mr. Lee has changed his opinion as to where one should look last when making the stroke. Was he correct before or is he correct now. It his merely his opinion based on what he as deduced or was told to him & he has made his determination.
This thread was productive, at least for me, as I now know that what I would have called a piston like stroke is what 'most' would seem to call a 'pendulum' stroke. As I believe Neil & some others have said the focus should not be on keeping the elbow still when playing & I would agree. Well if that is the case, then why is the elbow the focus when defining the stroke? Personally, I think the resuting path of the cue should be what defines the 'name' of a stroke. There is no straight line movement in a true pendulum.
In golf, one can say he made a fade type swing or he made a draw type swing due to the path that the club was put through during the swing. Why does 'pool' define a stroke by the non movement of one anatomical part & then call it a 'pendulum' when the desired effect has nothing to do with a true pendulum motion which is to curve on an arc with NO straight line motion?
As I have said depending on one's 'grip action' there can be & are many different 'pendulum' strokes as long as the elbow does not drop or move it is a 'pendulum' stroke by definition. Some can be very good & others not so good.
I hope this thread has helped someone to determine what if any problem they may have been having with thier 'pendulum' stroke.
That has always been my intention, to help whenever possible. I am probably misunderstood & thought of, as you seem to, as having some ullterior motive. What could that be? I have no ulterior motive. I would think that the underlying purpose of this site & especially this sub forum is for people to learn to play better. I think everyone shoud have as much objective information as possible before making any decision that will effect them.
So... in a sense, I may have joined the 'Camp of the Pendulum' even if I am not a full fledged convert. I will probably be part of an off-shoot of the 'religion' that may be called the 'Straight Line Enigmas of the Pendulum'.
I hope you & others have a better understanding of my position & true intentions.
Regards,
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Chris,
Thanks again for your help in getting me to my new understanding.
It amazes me too that in my 11 months here on AZB that the performance of the 'grip action' has not been talked about in its relationship to 'a' 'pendulum' stroke. At least I have not seen it done in the way it was here in this thread.
I agree with you that it should be whatever stroke works better for each individual & no cookie cutter approach should be applied to say that this one will work better for 'you' than that one. The truth is no one can know that & it would only be an opinion for a reason that may or may not be applicable.
However, I will stick to my belief that a straight line is better suited to hitting a very small 3 mm spot on a cue ball rather than an arcing movement, at least for consistency AND repeatability. I also think that straight line approach allows for more room for any error in the set up. With a straight line approach the set up is not so vitally crucial.
Just how one gets that straight line approach is irrelevant, all other things performing equally well.
Thanks Again & Best Wishes,
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Rick, I'll do my best to answer your main question about the sweet spot of 2-3" of level cue that RandyG was talking about.
At contact, the arm is at 90 degrees and the cue is level. As the cue goes "through" the CB, it's important to bend the wrist slightly, and this is what keeps the cue level.
I'm sure you've seen this video before, but pay very close attention to how his wrist bends right after contact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlmhEqTikYI
At contact, the arm is at 90 degrees and the cue is level. As the cue goes "through" the CB, it's important to bend the wrist slightly, and this is what keeps the cue level.
I'm sure you've seen this video before, but pay very close attention to how his wrist bends right after contact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlmhEqTikYI
Mr. Avlon, Sir,
How do you know whether or not I have mastered a 'pendulum' stroke or not & why do you suggest that I have not done so without knowing so for a fact? Also why is it that some so often think themselve to be omniscient?
I would totally agree with you that change for the sake of change with no real reason or need for change would be a bit foolish.
As I have said in my earllier response to you, easier & quicker is not always what is best.
However, if that is what one wants then by all means one should do what one wants. That being said one should also know that there may later on be consequences for taking the easy & quick way.
I quess it comes down to one's goals & expectations.
As I have said before, I have no oppostion to anyone doing & learning whatever one wants to do, learn or use. Why would I?
I would just hope that they have ALL of the objective information available to them so that they can make an informed decision & be responsible for their decision & not just simply be led by a Pied Piper & have regrets latter on as some have relayed to me in PMs.
I would think that there are more that were unsatisfied than just those few that have PM'd me just as I am sure that there are many that are totally happy with learning 'a' 'pendulum' stroke. If they are happy then I am happy for them, especially if they learned one similiar to those portrayed by Oyster & Mr. Green.
I am not the reason for those that have buyer's remorse regarding paying to 'learn' 'a' 'pendulum' stroke.
I have sold insurance in the past & I never wanted a client to have buyer's remorse because the simple non payment of a premium cancels a policy & my commission. I always wanted my clients to be fully informed of ALL of their options. Secrets, distortions, & deceptions never work well in the long haul. I know this through stories told me & not by personal experience as I have always believed in the truth, the whole truth, & nothing but the truth.
In your business there is not a cancellation & loss of commission. There is only reputation & the word of mouth good or bad will that former clients will put out. To think that there is 100% success would be a bit foolish. A couple of those that have PM'd me have said that they don't speak out on this forum for the abuse that they have seen others get & know that they would also. I believe it is human nature to praise the benefits that one feels they have gained by their decisions than it is to speak out against anything where they feel that they made a mistake or a bad decision.
I have refused to sell products to clients until I was positively sure that they were buying from me because they wanted to do so & with a full understanding of what they were buying & not just because of my enthusiasm for the product that I was selling. I have found that full disclosure & honest answers to all questions was the best policy. I may have lost some sales but I did not lose any sleep at night due to my conscience questioning anything that I did or did not do.
It seems to me that you are trying to convince yourself of something rather than trying to convince me. Naturally I could be wrong but that is my take on your posts to me. They are short simple statements in a declaritive form with no supporting 'argument'. I hope you see my point & take no offense as non is intended. It is just that your statements to me bring up more questions than answers for me as to why are you saying what you are saying.
If I am wrong in my take then I apologize for making the suggestion. It just seems to me that you are not sure about something.
Regards & Best Wishes, Sincerely,
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Rick, I'll do my best to answer your main question about the sweet spot of 2-3" of level cue that RandyG was talking about.
At contact, the arm is at 90 degrees and the cue is level. As the cue goes "through" the CB, it's important to bend the wrist slightly, and this is what keeps the cue level.
I'm sure you've seen this video before, but pay very close attention to how his wrist bends right after contact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlmhEqTikYI
Beiber,
Thanks.
I have a new understanding of what most consider to be 'a' 'pendulum' sroke. Many of those strokes I would have considered & called them a piston like stroke.
As ususal much of the contention here on AZB comes down to misunderstandings or different vernaculars.
During the course of this thread I deduced that a non-natural wrist action could contribute to the leveling out for a small distance of travel. It is similiar to CJ Wiley's hammer action but without the power to which CJ eludes due to a 'loose' grip. AS Dr. dave is in that postion that wrist cock would have the effect of contouring the tip wanting to move upward off of the bridge if the grip was 'tight'. The same or simliar thing would happen without that wrist action if the elbow were allowed to drop. both lesson the tip wanting to raise up. So...which one is more simple & easier to time?
IMHO opinion co-ordinating that action for the purpose of leveling out just before & during contact would be a bit more cmplex than just letting the elbow drop when it wants in order to get or keep the gue travleing 'straight'. Or...perhaps a bit of both might be good. I personally would not care which one or whatever else happens so long as the cue & tip are traveling as straight as possible.
I have often said here on AZB that one change or difference begets another or a change in effect ocurs. This is a similiar situation.
I would think that a combination of 'grip feathering action' &/or 'reverse' unnatural wrist action &/or the elbow dorpping can get & keep the cue moving in a straight line.
Thank you for trying to help & the actual help.
I now understand that a 'pendulum' stroke is & can be anything so long as the elbow does not move.
As I have said in another post that I do not doubt that some of my strokes may well be a 'pendulum' stroke or a hybrid of some sort as I do not prescribe to any set limitation or requirements as how I obtain the different speeds that I want. I do not perform a full stroke for every shot. I am very much a feel player & will do whatever I feel is correct for the result that I want.
Thanks again & shoot well with whatever stroke you are using.
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first let me say im not an instructor
and i think i really have a "j" stroke (scott would you agree??)
watch the girls grip hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CWGMRbO0I
in the back stroke she opens her hand and and ulnar flexes her wrist slightly
on the forward stroke after contact she radial flexes her wrist slightly as she comes forward
she keeps the cue rather level and minimally drops her elbow
thats how you keep a "level stroke" and pendulum swing'
as mentioned before
imho
if you watch most of the pros i think you will see regardless of their type of stroke an opening of the hand on the back swing
and a radial flex of the wrist on the forward swing
with the wrisr neutral bending towards the pinky side is ulnar deviation
bending it towards the thumb side is radial deviation
this happens naturally in a pool stroke (imho)
when exaggerated its a "wrist snap"
and i think i really have a "j" stroke (scott would you agree??)
watch the girls grip hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CWGMRbO0I
in the back stroke she opens her hand and and ulnar flexes her wrist slightly
on the forward stroke after contact she radial flexes her wrist slightly as she comes forward
she keeps the cue rather level and minimally drops her elbow
thats how you keep a "level stroke" and pendulum swing'
as mentioned before
imho
if you watch most of the pros i think you will see regardless of their type of stroke an opening of the hand on the back swing
and a radial flex of the wrist on the forward swing
with the wrisr neutral bending towards the pinky side is ulnar deviation
bending it towards the thumb side is radial deviation
this happens naturally in a pool stroke (imho)
when exaggerated its a "wrist snap"
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Hi Larry,
Persoanlly, I see very little wrist flex in her stroke in either direction. But...think about what you are saying regarding the wrist flexes & the directions at the times that you say they occur.
If the wrist flexes toward the pinky on the back stroke with a fixed grip, that would take the tip down if the cue were not supported by the bridge. If the wrist flexes toward the thumb on the forward stroke with a fixed grip it would take the tip up off of the bridge. Those wrist flexes would increase the slope angle of the cue & not decrease them. It is the opposite wrist action, which I would call an unnatural or reverse wrist action as they would be in the opposite direction of the arm swing that would decrease the slope of the cue. If those were done as in the picture of Dr. Dave's wrist then they would decrease the slope angle of the cue.
She does feather open her grip which allows for the cue to stay more straight as it changes the angle within the hand. I hate to critique her stroke, but I think I see a very little bit of wrist roll in & out.
But now here's the thing. You say a minimal elbow dorp. By definition if the elbow drops then it is not 'a' 'pendulum' stroke. So... what would it be if the stroke has some elbow drop? How much elbow drop can there be before one says that it is no longer a 'pendulum' stroke? There have been other example videos posted in other threads of strokes that were suppose to be 'pendulum' strokes & I noticed elbow drops on quite a few shots when ever a bit of power was put onto the shot.
By definition 'a' 'pendulum' stroke is one with a stationary elbow. So... by definition if the elbow drops then it is not 'a' 'pendulum' stroke.
What do you think?
Edit: In a sense, the fixed elbow seems to cause things that need to be overcome by other biomechanics. To me it would seem that the lowering of the elbow on the back stroke like a scissor might be better than a fixed elbow. But that too would reguire a grip action to prevent the same accentuation of the slope that the cue would want to take.
So... it would seem to me that the MOST important aspect of ANY stroke is the grip & what action is allowed by it, regardless of whether the elbow is stationary or is allowed to move.
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Hi Rick,
How much does the elbow have to drop to be considered a Piston stroke?
Thanks
Rufus
english my point is there is no fixed grip
the hand opens and closes in tune with some ulnar and radial deviation
for those not familiar with those terms its keeping the wrist neutral ie not in or out but towards the pinky side (ulnar deviation) or thumb side(radial deviation)
my un scientific opinion is most pros open and close their hands as they stroke to some degree
a "fixed grip" is not as common because as you said it would cause the tip to deviate too much
jmho
icbw
and what the heck do i know
:wink:
anyones thoughts on this
regards to type of stroke and wrist action/grip??
or whatever else i am probably missing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHQEgE6YTQ
going to bed
hope we all get to reach our potential
:thumbup:
regards to type of stroke and wrist action/grip??
or whatever else i am probably missing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHQEgE6YTQ
going to bed
hope we all get to reach our potential
:thumbup:
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Larry,
I would agree regarding the grip 'action' & what it would allow or not allow & that is why I think it is the most important part & as Renfro has said seems to have a been a bit neglected. I had thought that a 'craddle' grip where the cue sits in it was the prescribed grip for a pendulum stoke & that may have been causing some confusion, at least for me.
Regards,
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Hi Rufus,
You tell me. I was just asking Larry for his opinion.
I would say that by definition if there is any movement of the elbow then it would not be 'a' 'pendulum' stroke.
So...what would it be then, if the elbow moves?
Would it be a piston stroke or would it be a hybrid of some sort?
As I have said several times, to me the path of the cue stick & tip should be the defining elements of what a stroke is & not the motion or non motion of a part of the anatomy as it relates to a simple gravitational machine. A true pendulum does not cause any straight line movement. So why call a stroke in which straight line movement of the cue & tip is the goal a 'pendulum' stroke?
If the cue & tip move in a straight line, as a piston does, then I would call it a piston like stroke.
If they are arcing up & down as the swing of a true pendulum does, then I guess that the term 'pendulum' could fit it.
However, as I have also said previously, since a true pendulum has no straight line movement, to call a stroke that results in a straight line movement of the cue & tip a 'pendulum' stroke certainly seems counterintuitive to me.
So... you tell me. How much does the elbow have to move before I or anyone else can refer to it as a piston stroke?
It would seem that some want to have it both ways. If the elbow stays stationary it is 'a' 'pendulum' stroke & if the elbow drops it is still 'a' 'pendulum' stroke.
Why can't it be a mini piston stroke? Or... is it a hybrid as I have suggested might be more truthful by 'definition'.
As I have said, I think it should be the cue & tip path that are the defining elements. If the cue & tip travel straight back & straight throught that would be a Piston Type Stroke. If the cue & tip travel in an arc back & an arc through then I guess 'pendulum' might be a suitable name. If the cue & tip go back straight & arc through then perhaps a piston/pendulum hybrid might be good. If the cue & tip arc back & go through straight then perhaps pendulum/piston hybrid might be good or the J stroke as it seems to be known.
So you tell me if the elbow moves what is it?
Regards,
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Drunk post alert
"Know clue"(my play on words like real eyes) as to the bio-mechanics....but when I have the swing thought of nothing is going to move above my elbow, I get good results. I do not care if my elbow drops or stays perfectly still. I do not care if my swing goes perfectly level for 2 or more inches. I do not care if it is called a piston, a pendulum or a j. I just know if I concentrate on freezing my body above the elbow rather than starting my stroke at the shoulder, I get better results.
"Know clue"(my play on words like real eyes) as to the bio-mechanics....but when I have the swing thought of nothing is going to move above my elbow, I get good results. I do not care if my elbow drops or stays perfectly still. I do not care if my swing goes perfectly level for 2 or more inches. I do not care if it is called a piston, a pendulum or a j. I just know if I concentrate on freezing my body above the elbow rather than starting my stroke at the shoulder, I get better results.
It's difficult to answer this seeming easy question isn't it Rick? I"m not going to answer it for you because I asked you and the question remains. If you don't know then just say you don't know.
Please note there's some humor in this.One thing that I think is often overlooked and to me, perhaps no one else, it seems that if one focuses too much thought on exact definitions of what makes a pendulum stroke, or a piston stroke, they are likely going to hinder their game. At some point players have to take theory to the table and execute. I could easily call a stroke the Blue Stroke and you know what it might help someones game. Someone could come along and ask me to define it. One of the challenges of teaching, which I'm sure you know, is being able to explain something in multiple ways.
I wouldn't get far with most pool students if I drew out some mathematical equations representing the "Blue Stroke", Even if I said that the stroke represented a vector accelerating in the direction of the cueball with the assumption that it had no other movement. That level of explanation would be over some of the students heads and they would not grasp the concept, others would point out that the explanation did not account for every variable in play during the stroke. They would be technically correct yet if they tried to focus on every possible variance in the stroke they in my opinion would not advance their pool game very far.
Sometimes, theoretical concepts must be simplified to the point where the student grasps the concept and begins to work with it on their own.
It's all well and good to ask questions, and to keep seeking a "truth" or an exact science but it may not be productive in the long run. Some, like to take everything literally and in the end I believe it can impede their advancement.
If one draws a circle with a pencil using a compass, some will say it is definitely a circle, some will say it is a perfect circle, if someone magnifies it 100X they will see that the circle has edges which means it's not a circle at all but an approximation of a circle. At the end of the day it is the student who sees the circle as a circle that can move on and use the circle. Approximations are a part of life as are metaphors.
When I teach the "pendulum" stroke, I often will say it's "like" a pendulum to give the student a visual representation or approximation of what it looks like on the surface. I'm not going to draw arcs and vectors out to explain it to them. In my opinion, that would defeat the point of trying to help them enjoy the game of pool, which at the end of the day, is what most instructors are trying to help their students achieve.
That's just my two cents, for what it's worth. It's been an interesting thread to read with the potential of paralysis by analysis.
Hey,
That's all that really matters for any individual. As long the balls are going into the pockets AND the cue ball is going where I want it, I could not care less what any part of my anatomy is doing.
Thanks for putting a little perspective back into the converstaions.
Regards,
It's difficult to answer this seeming easy question isn't it Rick? I"m not going to answer it for you because I asked you and the question remains. If you don't know then just say you don't know.
One thing that I think is often overlooked and to me, perhaps no one else, it seems that if one focuses too much thought on exact definitions of what makes a pendulum stroke, or a piston stroke, they are likely going to hinder their game. At some point players have to take theory to the table and execute. I could easily call a stroke the Blue Stroke and you know what it might help someones game. Someone could come along and ask me to define it. One of the challenges of teaching, which I'm sure you know, is being able to explain something in multiple ways.
I wouldn't get far with most pool students if I drew out some mathematical equations representing the "Blue Stroke", Even if I said that the stroke represented a vector accelerating in the direction of the cueball with the assumption that it had no other movement. That level of explanation would be over some of the students heads and they would not grasp the concept, others would point out that the explanation did not account for every variable in play during the stroke. They would be technically correct yet if they tried to focus on every possible variance in the stroke they in my opinion would not advance their pool game very far.
Sometimes, theoretical concepts must be simplified to the point where the student grasps the concept and begins to work with it on their own.
It's all well and good to ask questions, and to keep seeking a "truth" or an exact science but it may not be productive in the long run. Some, like to take everything literally and in the end I believe it can impede their advancement.
If one draws a circle with a pencil using a compass, some will say it is definitely a circle, some will say it is a perfect circle, if someone magnifies it 100X they will see that the circle has edges which means it's not a circle at all but an approximation of a circle. At the end of the day it is the student who sees the circle as a circle that can move on and use the circle. Approximations are a part of life as are metaphors.
When I teach the "pendulum" stroke, I often will say it's "like" a pendulum to give the student a visual representation or approximation of what it looks like on the surface. I'm not going to draw arcs and vectors out to explain it to them. In my opinion, that would defeat the point of trying to help them enjoy the game of pool, which at the end of the day, is what most instructors are trying to help their students achieve.
That's just my two cents, for what it's worth. It's been an interesting thread to read with the potential of paralysis by analysis.
Rufus,
I typed out a long response picking at your post but instead can you simply tell me what was the point & purpose of your post in literal language?
I saw no humor in it.
What exactly are you trying to mitigate with it?
Is it that the 'pendulum' stroke is not exactly as simple as it is often made out to be if one wants to get any straight line tip travel.
Because to get any straight line tip travel with a 'pendulum' like arm swing one would seemingly have to accompany it with a feathered grip action &/or an unnatural different direction wrist action.
I think my question has been answered first by Chris/Renfro & then with the help of the videos posted by Neil & I thank them again, as well as all others that contributed in an attempt to provide some sort of an answer.
I don't really care what my elbow does or does not do during my stroke as long as my tip goes straight into & through contact with the cue ball.
It is mostly some of the instructors & others that espouse the 'pendulum' stroke that make the elbow staying still at least until contact a big important factor. I have explained several times how & what I would use as the determining element to define both the piston, pendulum, & hybrids. The amount of elbow drop means nothing to me. But apparently by the accepted definiton if the elbow moves at all, it is not a pendulum stroke. I would guess that is because the center of a true pendulum does not move as the pendulum swings along its arc.
Apparently you have a set amount of elbow drop to differentiate between a piston & a 'pendulum' stroke or at least you suggested such, but for some reason you are withholding that information. Can you at least tell all that may be reading this thread why you are doing that?
Regards,
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Quite simply I'm asking "you" to define how far must the elbow drop for "YOU" to consider it a piston stroke. You refuse to answer the question.
I am asking the question of "You" not answering it, because I do not know how far the elbow must drop to be a piston stroke according to "YOUR" definition.
Maybe it doesn't matter or any amount of elbow drop makes it a piston, or half piston or 1/64th of a piston. Define it as you do. I am seeking your opinion/your definition. I can't tell you what your definition of a Piston stroke is. Maybe a piston stroke for you is anything that isn't a perfect pendulum? I don't know that's why I am asking you to define it based on your criteria.
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