Phillipine imports

R

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member


Have any of you guys done much work on any of these Philipine import cues that are all over e-bay at very low prices? For the last year or so I've worked on about a half-dozen of them and they certainly are not what they seem.

A little over a year ago, a pretty good player came down from Dayton to have me re-taper a couple of these shafts. The cue looked pretty good with lots of ivory inlays and so forth. I turned both shafts down to 12.5mm and lengthened the tapers. These nice white shafts were brown under the bleach or whatever and were full of suger and grain run-out. About three months later he had me make him two more shafts as the originals warped so badly. Last week he brought the cue in and wanted me to refinish it. The butt wood had shrunk, there were giant glue lines now visible around the inlays and the butt was warped. I told him that I didn't want to mess with it and to send it back to where he bought it and see if they could do anything with it.

These cues look to give a bang-for the-buck but in the long run it sure is false economy. I could hardly believe how that cue de-graded in such a short time. You get what you pay for.

Dick
 
I know Edwin has a room to keep the humidity low enough to age his woods and cues.
The rest, I have no clue.
A friend of mine brought in a few cues here from there to sell . They all warped after a few weeks.
 
rhncue said:


Have any of you guys done much work on any of these Philipine import cues that are all over e-bay at very low prices? For the last year or so I've worked on about a half-dozen of them and they certainly are not what they seem.

A little over a year ago, a pretty good player came down from Dayton to have me re-taper a couple of these shafts. The cue looked pretty good with lots of ivory inlays and so forth. I turned both shafts down to 12.5mm and lengthened the tapers. These nice white shafts were brown under the bleach or whatever and were full of suger and grain run-out. About three months later he had me make him two more shafts as the originals warped so badly. Last week he brought the cue in and wanted me to refinish it. The butt wood had shrunk, there were giant glue lines now visible around the inlays and the butt was warped. I told him that I didn't want to mess with it and to send it back to where he bought it and see if they could do anything with it.

These cues look to give a bang-for the-buck but in the long run it sure is false economy. I could hardly believe how that cue de-graded in such a short time. You get what you pay for.

Dick
Click to expand...

Dick,
We had a Jazz Cue come in from a friend, and it looked just like this cue.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Custom-Ivory-Amboyna-Burl-cue-cues-Amazing_W0QQitemZ7229551098QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

All I know is if they are doing these with pantographs, they are pretty talented. But I did give the cue back to this guy because I found out where it came from I yanked it immediately.

Joe
 
I have a guy that plays in my pool room with one. I have played with it, checked it out. No sir, I wouldn't own one.

Whoever makes them sure does like inlaying. I'll give em that.
 
classiccues said:
Dick,
We had a Jazz Cue come in from a friend, and it looked just like this cue.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Custom-Ivory-Amboyna-Burl-cue-cues-Amazing_W0QQitemZ7229551098QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

All I know is if they are doing these with pantographs, they are pretty talented. But I did give the cue back to this guy because I found out where it came from I yanked it immediately.

Joe
Click to expand...
They are more talented than you think because most don't even own a pantograph. They use dremel tools, knives and chisles and such. There is one of my inlay machines over there and a Bludworth CNC Mill. So far I have not seen any cues done with those, but most of the others do it with a lot more hand crafting than most Americans do. Sure the quality on most cues coming from over there are not all that high of quality, but my hat is off to them for being able to do as good as they do with the tools they use. I don't think there would be very many American cuemakers today if we all had to chisle in our inlays and turn our cues on wood lathes.
 
Problem with bringing cues over to the US or foreign country is that the conditions (climate etc) in these countries are very much different from the Philippines. The only chance for the cue not to warp is to stabilize and/or control moisture content of the cues prior to sealing and finishing. The idea is what is inside the wood should be almost or exactly the same as what is outside the wood (environment). Of course you can also make it "immune" to the external environment by resin impregnation.

The other factor is the wood/materials used for these low priced cues are not as well treated and seasoned. Wood is not a consistent material. Different parts of the wood (even on a small piece) will have different reactions to enviroment and tempreture.

In some instances however, warping can also happen when US or improted cues are brought into the Philippines. In this case, the wood swells up once it begins to absorb moisture.

So JoeyInCali is very correct.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
I know Edwin has a room to keep the humidity low enough to age his woods and cues.
The rest, I have no clue.
A friend of mine brought in a few cues here from there to sell . They all warped after a few weeks.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth I received my ER cues about 7 months ago and they are still straight and beautiful.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I know Edwin has a room to keep the humidity low enough to age his woods and cues.
The rest, I have no clue.
A friend of mine brought in a few cues here from there to sell . They all warped after a few weeks.
Click to expand...

I still have three Linds and three Viattorres in USA. They are perfectly fine. I've bought some cheap Philipino cues on eBay and yet they were piece of s**t.

I'd hate to lump all Philipino cues together as this tends to create a negative stereotype.
 
I guess I'm the most qualified to speak about experiences since I've crafted cues in both continents and this is actually my 20th year in cuemaking (10 in USA and 10 in the Philippines). I don't mind sharing as long as this doesn't turn into a flamewar (any hint of such and I'm gone). Hopefully this will be looked upon as a learning experience or reason to strive for the better.

I don't profess to be an expert in the craft nor have need to be considered as such. I do hit a lot of snags too but I do strive to find solutions or find better ways to improve a system. I don't look for approval but from myself as this is my passion though simple praises are very very heart-warming and extremely appreciated.

I will share what I have personally noticed and worked on. Almost a who's who in cuemaking although I have refused on some brands but did recommended alternatives that can be beneficial to the owner (high$ classic cues). I'm sure that you'll wonder why I get all these different brads...One reason is the strict enforcement of US FWS laws. I'll start by responding to posts.
 
rhncue said:

These cues look to give a bang-for the-buck but in the long run it sure is false economy. I could hardly believe how that cue de-graded in such a short time. You get what you pay for.

Dick
Click to expand...
Even much more so if it is a high dollar US custom cue that de-grades. Can you imagine people from 3rd world economies working hard and saving as much as they can so that they can purchase a percieved high quality custom cue to later on just feel disappointed? At least, with the low cost ebay Philippine cues, you can say "You get what you pay for"! In all the cues that have gone through my shop, there are only 4 current brands that have survived the test of time.

Mr. Neighbors, it goes both ways. There's shoddy work coming from both ends and a lot are, as I see it since I lived in both lifestyles(economy), due to economic reasons.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
I know Edwin has a room to keep the humidity low enough to age his woods and cues.
The rest, I have no clue.
A friend of mine brought in a few cues here from there to sell . They all warped after a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Thanks Joey. It's not just a matter of "the room" but a systematic scheduling of all the processes that the materials go through. It's not fool proof but it does give a higher batting ave.:)
 
classiccues said:
Dick,
We had a Jazz Cue come in from a friend, and it looked just like this cue.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Custom-Ivory-Amboyna-Burl-cue-cues-Amazing_W0QQitemZ7229551098QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

All I know is if they are doing these with pantographs, they are pretty talented. But I did give the cue back to this guy because I found out where it came from I yanked it immediately.

Joe
Click to expand...
Yes, Tony Bautista/Jazz is pretty talented but unfortunately they all are greatly affected by the economic conditions and buyer syatems here. Buyers squeeze every penny that they can from the makers price. These buyers leave the shops so content and laughing that they have cut the makers profit down to almost nothing but what they don't know is that they're the ones who will suffer later because these cuemakers WILL save capital expense on every aspect of their cue. Some of these buyer/dealers wil even purchase the woods to use and push to have his cues completed in a month and a half all the while thinking that he's getting the best of the cuemaker. Got news for you bumblebee!LOL This practice greatly affected these cuemakers products, reputation and attitude towards the craft.:-(

There's even a foreign ?cuemaker? here who transfers from one local cuemaker to another (you can tell when he transfers, the style changes). He gets bad feedback from a customer so he transfers to a different local cuemaker. First from Angeles City makers then Linds then Guagua makers, now discussing with Tony but keeps getting rejected. Last I heard was that he's trying to convince Tony to take the measly amount that he offers and put his brand on the cues that Tony'll make. Good Luck! Tony knows his story.
 
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PetreeCues said:
I have a guy that plays in my pool room with one. I have played with it, checked it out. No sir, I wouldn't own one.

Whoever makes them sure does like inlaying. I'll give em that.
Click to expand...
Inlaying quantity used to be the competition between makers here as local buyers like all that dazzle. At least now their moving, albeit, slowly to quality and quantity. Also now they try to come up with original designs. I remember when I first came back for a visit in the early 90's, they were reproducing McD and Meucci designs as their high-end! Now they reproduce custom cue brands!LOL

When I first hooked up with Linds in 96 when he came over to ask me to help them out, my first lesson to them was about cue levels. They should perfect a low level first in every aspect before moving up to the next. But this was easier said than done because of how the buyers market and demand was. Currently, I think that lesson is starting to sink in.
 
cueman said:
They are more talented than you think because most don't even own a pantograph. They use dremel tools, knives and chisles and such. There is one of my inlay machines over there and a Bludworth CNC Mill. So far I have not seen any cues done with those, but most of the others do it with a lot more hand crafting than most Americans do. Sure the quality on most cues coming from over there are not all that high of quality, but my hat is off to them for being able to do as good as they do with the tools they use. I don't think there would be very many American cuemakers today if we all had to chisle in our inlays and turn our cues on wood lathes.
Click to expand...
Thank you for recognizing such talents Chris. I do hope though that their slowly improving economic condition will cause them to cast their attention to other aspects of the craft. Not just all show and no go.
 
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monski said:
Problem with bringing cues over to the US or foreign country is that the conditions (climate etc) in these countries are very much different from the Philippines. The only chance for the cue not to warp is to stabilize and/or control moisture content of the cues prior to sealing and finishing. The idea is what is inside the wood should be almost or exactly the same as what is outside the wood (environment). Of course you can also make it "immune" to the external environment by resin impregnation.

The other factor is the wood/materials used for these low priced cues are not as well treated and seasoned. Wood is not a consistent material. Different parts of the wood (even on a small piece) will have different reactions to enviroment and tempreture.

In some instances however, warping can also happen when US or improted cues are brought into the Philippines. In this case, the wood swells up once it begins to absorb moisture.

So JoeyInCali is very correct.
Click to expand...

Differing climatic conditions is a minor reason Monski. There are other construction stages and systems that have a greater impact on the outcome.

Resin impregnation? Like those earlier Taiwan cues that were marketed in the US in the early 90s? We know what happened to those and how those shoot!

Regarding wood warpage. You're right about Philippine cues shrinking up north and US cues Swelling down in the Orient. What you forgot to mention was Nelsonite sealed cues cracking.
 
zeeder said:
For what it's worth I received my ER cues about 7 months ago and they are still straight and beautiful.
Click to expand...
Thank you Zack. I'm glad that you're happy with it. I still need to send you the prov. I know, I know... I'm being a dingbat!LOL
 
Jazz said:
I still have three Linds and three Viattorres in USA. They are perfectly fine. I've bought some cheap Philipino cues on eBay and yet they were piece of s**t.

I'd hate to lump all Philipino cues together as this tends to create a negative stereotype.
Click to expand...
Thank you Jazz. I agree, there are always some rotten apples in the bunch.
 
bandido said:
Thank you for recognizing such talents Chris. I do hope though that their slowly improving economic condition will cause them to cast their attention to other aspects of the craft. Not just all show and no go.
Click to expand...
I wrote in my cue building book that the cuemakers there could become to cuemaking what Efren has become to pool if they had better equipment and did some things differently as you can see there is a lot of talent there to produce what they do with the tools they have. I am glad to see you and a few others there making really nice cues. The "all show and no go." as you put it is why they get criticized.
 
Jazz said:
Both Miranda and Jazz cues below exactly identical??? :confused:

Are they made out of same shop?

Miranda http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7229551098&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

Jazz
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7230133903&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1
Click to expand...
No they are not made in the same shop. This is a very good example of what I have complained to them about. The lack of artistic originality or taking a short cut in the dazzle department by copying anothers hard worked on artistry. The original design is a US custom cuemaker's Pinnacle.

I think that Jazz cue is the one making its rounds there in the US and possibly was previously owned by a couple of posters here. That too was brought here and needed a resanding and polishing of the finish coat a month after it was picked up by the initial owner from Tony. One of the shaft black joint collars was also replaced with double-black linen as the original ring broke and was discovered to be made of tinted fiberglass resin. Here is a good example on how the cuemaker retaliates to a buyer/dealer, who thinks he's the business financial genius, who forces his prices on a cuemaker! LOL
All these guys are doing is contributing to/causing the negative reputation of cuemaking here in the Philippines. They keep hearing about it from me that's why they try to bring me down so they can keep their hustle going! Poor consumers! Poor hands-tied-in-the-back(financially) cuemakers!
 
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