Phillipino dominance?

[jeffwinters]

Sir Roadie,

I responded to your claim that there are players from Turkey, Germany and other European Country who can beat champions of today, i may have add some stuffs regarding how Filipino become good at pool, but that's a different story.

I think it's disrespectful to all the players who join tournaments and win it, not only Asians and Americans, also Europeans like Niels, Thorsten, Ralf etc, when somebody would say that this person could beat you but did'nt have the opportunity to join.

I may not have tour the world joining tournaments but whenever i join local tournament and happen to win it and somebody would say he could beat me but did'nt join, i would be piss off and feel disrespected.

Maybe it's just me.

I'm sorry if i happen to sound unpleasant.

 

[Roadie]

Sir Roadie,

I responded to your claim that there are players from Turkey, Germany and other European Country who can beat champions of today, i may have add some stuffs regarding how Filipino become good at pool, but that's a different story.

I think it's disrespectful to all the players who join tournaments and win it, not only Asians and Americans, also Europeans like Niels, Thorsten, Ralf etc, when somebody would say that this person could beat you but did'nt have the opportunity to join.

I may not have tour the world joining tournaments but whenever i join local tournament and happen to win it and somebody would say he could beat me but did'nt join, i would be piss off and feel disrespected.

Maybe it's just me.

I'm sorry if i happen to sound unpleasant.

Yes I think we have a miscommunication. It's just you Just kidding, I understand your sentiment but I am not knocking any existing champions in the least.

I don't recall directly saying that there are unknowns who can beat the champions we know. I will state very clearly however that there are in fact "unknowns" who can beat any champion living in any given tournament set. I am sure you will agree that there are Filipino players who have never been out of the Phillipines, who might be dirt poor, with no backers who are capable of taking a set off of Efren now and then. It is no disrepect to Efren to state factually that such players exist. None at all.

In fact, John Grissom told the American players about an unknown in the Phillipines, named Reyes who was easily the equal of or better than most American pros. This was in 1979. Was it disrespectful of Grissom to state this? How dare he suggest that some country bumpkin from a third world country be the equal of the sophisticated Americans. Well, as we know that observation turned out to be 100% correct.

And yes, it is a fair statement to say that some people don't have the opportunity to play on the world stage. You know and I know that every player who is capable of competing with the big boys is not able to attend for a host of reasons, cash flow being the primary one. This is true for Filipinos, Americans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Germans and all other nationalities. There isn't a pool money tree somewhere for all these guys to grab what they need. Nor is there really a structure that supports sending the best players around the world.

In my little German league team we had an incentive for players to get better. It worked like this; All of the players on the first team got expense money and entry money to go to tournaments. If the player cashed in the tournaments then he/she was expected to reimburse the fund. This was a privilege extended to the best players in the club, who were on Team #1. Thus all the other players strove to get good enough to become a member of team 1 and team 1 players kept getting better so they wouldn't lose their spot.

If countries or organizations actually had something like this in place then you would see a lot of these unknown players moving into the spotlight. You would see the backer structure fade away leaving the players to shine on and enjoy the full fruits of their earnings. Right now players are almost fully dependent on the whims of backers and sponsors to gather together enough money to compete internationally.

It's not disrespectful to say that a Jeff DeLuna or Jharome Pena is/was capable of winning the Derby City 9-Ball event. Niels Feijen, the winner knows that. Why didn't Jeff or Jharome participate? No money? No Visa? Are they less talented than Niels simply because they didn't attend the event?

 

[gopi-1]

GOPI, so in what category does Luc Salvas fall into?
I'm kinda having a difficulty on this one since Luc is a pro but kicks and hope for the best and pray that he doesn't foul or scratch. what I had noticed about his kicks is that most often than not, it's an aggressive and unplanned kick based on how quickly he does the shot. not only the quickness of his decision do we only consider but also the manner on how he applies speed and power on the shot ( at most times, wild shots ). what is amazing is how lucky he is that most of his kicks ends up in a safety. he kinda reminds me of my older brother despite firing away with certain wild shots, he comes up safe and have me hooked up. damn lucky bastard !

I didn't say that! You did!
Unfortunately, we have some pros who doesn't have the patience to study
the intricacies of a kick shot, and Luc Salvas' definitely one of those pros.
It's probably because he always gets away with it, but I've seen him kick a
few times against pros his match and they always make him pay. Speed pool
is just perfect for him, it's just shoot and pray most of the time!

 

[crosseyedjoe]

It's not disrespectful to say that a Jeff DeLuna or Jharome Pena is/was capable of winning the Derby City 9-Ball event. Niels Feijen, the winner knows that. Why didn't Jeff or Jharome participate? No money? No Visa? Are they less talented than Niels simply because they didn't attend the event?

I'm about to sound like an old record that keeps replaying. Unknowns or third-tier talents like Jeff and Jherome has proven they are capable outside the Philippines that is the big difference.

Jim Rempe probably said "you're kidding" behind the smile he always carries when John Grissom talked about Reyes. If Reyes did not bring and prove it, we won't be talking about him being the one of the best players in the world or even the all time best player in the world.

There is another thread "Better than Efren." Yes, Filipinos recognize that there were probably one or two players who were better than Efren. But since Efren is the one who proved it, so he is the ONE.

 

[bandido]

Everyone get ready! Block of your calendars and make your plans. 2007 WPC will be held from Nov3-11, 2007 in Manila. Welcome everybody! I hope to see you there! Who wants to start an AZ Tour group?

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Everyone get ready! Block of your calendars and make your plans. 2007 WPC will be held from Nov3-11, 2007 in Manila. Welcome everybody! I hope to see you there! Who wants to start an AZ Tour group?

he-he, what, are you starting a tour-guide agency now? are we going to have a little bit of festivities because that will be cool specially to those players who get knock out early or to those tourists who will be flying to see the competition.

 

[bandido]

Philippine National Pool Championships also coming, March 26-31. Maybe some new faces will surface.

 

[bandido]

he-he, what, are you starting a tour-guide agency now? are we going to have a little bit of festivities because that will be cool specially to those players who get knock out early or to those tourists who will be flying to see the competition.

Not! I'll be too busy doing repairs. It will just be nice if you all can get together so that every move is a party. Just a suggestion.

 

[Roadie]

I have been a little out of touch with the billiard scene since the beginning of the year. Where outside of the Phillipines have in your words, third-tier talents, Jeff DeLuna and Jherome Pena proven that they are capable (of world class play)? Did they snap off a tournament in Europe or the USA? Did they win the Japan Open?

Where did they go and what did they do to prove their talent?

Big difference to what? I am kind of confused as to where you are going with this?

If I understand your stance, you are saying that the Filipinos are better than the Germans because according to you, "third tier" Filipinos, have proven that they can beat champions outside of the Philippines, but "third tier" Germans have not?

Do you even know who the German players are? I mean can anyone on this board name the top 20 players in Germany? Even if you look up the names is there anyone here who can clock their respective speed? I can.

I just don't understand how anyone can just dismiss another country's players without knowing anything about them. It boggles my mind. There is no way on Earth I would ever say that so and so is better than so and so without having pretty solid information about both players.

Filipinos are right to be proud of their pool players and their collective accomplishments. Elevating them to godlike status above all other pool players on Earth is a little much though. Only Bata Reyes deserves that accolade. ) And Buddy Hall too, (personal favorite).

Let's end this by simply saying that the Filipino Dominance is more of a mindset than a reality. They have dominating games and a dominant presence at the table. In gambling they have few contenders even up. In tournaments they are equally respected but beatable by their fellow world class players from around the world. Take Efren's accomplishments out of the equation and the Filipinio record across it's best present players pretty much mirrors that of other nations. To be fair, we'll take away Strickland's World Championships and five US Open victories.

Wishing everyone here a straight shooting day.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I have been a little out of touch with the billiard scene since the beginning of the year. Where outside of the Phillipines have in your words, third-tier talents, Jeff DeLuna and Jherome Pena proven that they are capable (of world class play)? Did they snap off a tournament in Europe or the USA? Did they win the Japan Open?

Jeff at least prove himself against the Asian bests by winning silver behind Gabica at the Asian Olympics. Before Taiwan, Thailand is the Philippine competition in Asia. Alex Pagulayan can atest to that. Thailand do have great players, but without any good results from them outside their country. The contest is between Philippines and Taiwan.

Pena and Gomez, young upstarts proving themselves againts competition outside the Philippines.

Gomez, Peña 1-2 in Norway 9-ball
Inquirer
Last updated 02:38am (Mla time) 01/22/2007

ROBERTO GOMEZ downed compatriot Jharome Peña, 9-5, in the finals to rule the “The Battle of Scandinavia” 9-ball billiards tournament in Oslo, Norway, over the weekend.
The 27-year-old Gomez defeated Britain’s Darren Appleton, 9-5, in the semi-final round to arrange the all-Filipino clash with the 24-year-old Peña, who had earlier knocked out another Briton, Raj Hundal, by the same score.
Gomez and Peña, two of the rising stars of Bugsy Promotion’s pool of players, pocketed 3,000 euros (about P210,000) and 1,000 euros, respectively.
In the more lucrative 8-ball competition at the same venue, the Netherlands’ Niels Feijen beat 17-year-old Ukrainian Artem Koshovyy in five best-of-five sets, 3-2, to claim the 15,000 euro champion’s prize. Marlon Bernardino, contributor

Do you even know who the German players are? I mean can anyone on this board name the top 20 players in Germany? Even if you look up the names is there anyone here who can clock their respective speed? I can.

And that is my point. LOL, even the hard names of the Taiwanese players are recalled by people because they bring it out.

 

[bandido]

I have been a little out of touch with the billiard scene since the beginning of the year. Where outside of the Phillipines have in your words, third-tier talents, Jeff DeLuna and Jherome Pena proven that they are capable (of world class play)? Did they snap off a tournament in Europe or the USA? Did they win the Japan Open?

Where did they go and what did they do to prove their talent?

Big difference to what? I am kind of confused as to where you are going with this?

If I understand your stance, you are saying that the Filipinos are better than the Germans because according to you, "third tier" Filipinos, have proven that they can beat champions outside of the Philippines, but "third tier" Germans have not?

Do you even know who the German players are? I mean can anyone on this board name the top 20 players in Germany? Even if you look up the names is there anyone here who can clock their respective speed? I can.

I just don't understand how anyone can just dismiss another country's players without knowing anything about them. It boggles my mind. There is no way on Earth I would ever say that so and so is better than so and so without having pretty solid information about both players.

Filipinos are right to be proud of their pool players and their collective accomplishments. Elevating them to godlike status above all other pool players on Earth is a little much though. Only Bata Reyes deserves that accolade. ) And Buddy Hall too, (personal favorite).

Let's end this by simply saying that the Filipino Dominance is more of a mindset than a reality. They have dominating games and a dominant presence at the table. In gambling they have few contenders even up. In tournaments they are equally respected but beatable by their fellow world class players from around the world. Take Efren's accomplishments out of the equation and the Filipinio record across it's best present players pretty much mirrors that of other nations. To be fair, we'll take away Strickland's World Championships and five US Open victories.

Wishing everyone here a straight shooting day.

I don't agree with the godlike status either. Here's some info you requested. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=45698 plus Jeffrey just won the silver medal, at the recently concluded Asian Games in Doha, behind Antonio Gabica. I think he beat yang and Wu on his way to the finals.

Mindset and not reality? Tournament results and the summation in the BD article should be adequate to disprove you.

 

[bandido]

And that is my point. LOL, even the hard names by the Taiwanese players are recalled by people because they bring it out.

LOL! Smart-A&&

 

[Roadie]

And that is my point. LOL, even the hard names by the Taiwanese players are recalled by people because they bring it out.

Really, here's a challenge then. I am going to name as many German players as I can think of who can run 100 balls in straight pool and consistent five packs or better in nine ball, you do the same for the Chinese, no cheating and looking it up

Oliver Ortmann
Ralf Souquet
Thorsten Hohmann
Thomas Engert
Michael Schmidt
Christian Reimering
Dieter Johns
Andreas Roshkowsky
Ralf Eckert
Bernd Jahnke
Sascha Troutmann
Klaus Zobreckis
Brian Beeker
Waldemar Markert (sp)
Alex ???? ahhrg, just right there. (Sholz)
Peter ???? on the tip of my tongue.
and many more....... it's been a long time since I have been there.

So here is where you can find a listing of the top German players. http://www.billard-union.de/ I went and looked at all the names that I couldn't recall right away. A lot of world beaters there.

How many Taiwanese names can you name without looking it up?

 

[crosseyedjoe]

LOL! Smart-A&&

Oooopps sorry.

What's frustrating me is that the some people can't face the fact that Filipinos dominated. It's a recognition that wasn't lobbied/orchestrated by the Filipinos, their peers saw the phenomenon. Billiards Digest reported it. Pool writers/journalists tried to dissect it.

 

[rotation]

Oooopps sorry.

What's frustrating me is that the some people can't face the fact that Filipinos dominated. It's a recognition that wasn't lobbied/orchestrated by the Filipinos, their peers saw the phenomenon. Billiards Digest reported it. Pool writers/journalists tried to disect it.

Exactly! Billiards Digest along with most american pros have acknowledged the dominance of Filipinos nowadays, that is proof enough to me. IMO people who keep denying this FACT are suffering from JEALOUSY, ENVY or plain STUPIDITY.....

 

[Roadie]

Isn't it nice that the European tournaments are open to players from around the world. Sure would be nice to see Asia open it's tournaments to players to come and play.

How old was unknown Thorsten Hohmann when he won the World Championship? Yes, Wu wa younger but when Thorsten did it the Germans weren't on home ground and they didn't take a 20 player shot at the tournament. Now I am being petulant. The point is that for every tournament you point to where a Filipino has won I can point to others where they did not. It swings back and forth.

Filipinos are enjoying the fear factor though. Just being a Filipino is worth a game or two against a lot of players. When I played Bustamante once in a race to seven I couldn't get out with three balls hanging in the pocket and gave him the first three games before I calmed down enough to play. I think having a Filipino passport is a big advantage when facing an opponent. And they live up to the hype, no doubt. But just as in Germany where the players got used to Busta and started winning against him players around the world will realize that the Filipino players are also just human as well and you'll see less matches where the fear factor plays a part.

I sound so anti-Filipino now and I am not. I have the highest respect for all players and don't count any of them out.

 

[buddha162]

Really, here's a challenge then. I am going to name as many German players as I can think of who can run 100 balls in straight pool and consistent five packs or better in nine ball, you do the same for the Chinese, no cheating and looking it up

This is a pointless exercise. If you can't accept the fact that the two best pool-playing countries today is obviously and BY FAR the PHI and Taiwan, you are not nearly as knowledgeable about the Asian pool scene as you claim.

100 balls in straight pool? Consistent 5 packs? And these are rubrics to judge what, exactly?

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

I know what the state of the world is on this and know that my money would be safe if it ever did come down to a show down between the 100 best of each country.

Well, your money will be safe because this will never happen. But if it did, I would wager every last cent, as much as I can liquidate, and double up easily. Taiwan vs. Germany? PHI vs. Germany? It is a foregone conclusion, I guarantee it.

-Roger

 

[Roadie]

Okay, I give up. The Filipinos and the Taiwanese are the world's greatest cueists in every discipline that they choose to play in. By far, it's no contest. Everyone else is just playing for second place, oops forgive me they are playing for 10th place, no 33rd place because the Tawanese and Filipinos will easily fill the top 32 spots in every tournament all the time always. Isn't this the the definition of domination, and slaughter, and "not even close".

Souquets tears were for the vanquished hopes of any non-Taiwanese/non-Filipino player. He knew that was the last time any European or American would ever get that close to a championship again.

Neils Feijen is really Taiwanese by the way. That's how he could beat Luat at Derby city. Cuz we know that no European ever has the firepower to beat ANY Filipino. Only the Taiwanese can pull that off.

John Shmidt is really Jehrome Pena. No American can win the US Open in a world dominated by the Taiwanese and Filipinos. It's like cattle to the slaughterhouse. Gabe the Babe Owen was really Antonio Gabica in disguise winnning the US Open last year.

I have been in a complete fog of confusion seeing all these great results by non-Filipinos and non-Taiwanese. In my alternate reality I transposed all those players from the bottom of the results list to the top.

Hey Europeans and Americans, save your money, the Taiwanese and the Filipino are dominating you, it's not even close, you are lambs going to slaughter. Do not enter any more tournaments where there are Filipino or Taiwanese players, you have no chance, get a day job and save your pennies so you can watch the Filipino/Taiwanese show on Billiard Club Network if you are lucky.

Does that about sum it up Roger? That ought to be an adequate description of how far above they are. Ok. You win, you're right, you rock.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

That's great. Straight pool? Taiwan's got a few straight pool monsters, Ming is probably the best and most recognized for being a straight-up straight pool player.



Once again, this is a death-defying leap of logic. "There are 3 Germans who have high runs in straight pool over 400, therefore the Germans play just as good as the Taiwanese"??



I was referring to them as one and the same. How else can you interpret "depth of talent?" Certainly not individual depth of talent, as you're suggesting now.

By your interpretation, John Shmidt has run over 400 balls, therefore Americans play just as good as the Taiwanese. Does that make any sense?

How many Filipinos have runs over 400 balls?

-Roger

Well I guess you can interpret it both ways. I'm sure Germany doesn't have as many good players as Taiwan does, but I figured we were talking about depth of talent as in the ability amongst the top players. Souquet, Ortmann, Hohmann, Engert, etc. would hold their own against Chao, Yang, Wu, Kuo, etc. That's what I meant.

And I was using the straight pool as an example of the "depth of talent" of Hohmann, Engert, Ortmann, and Souquet. There are a couple other great players like Michael Schmidt and Andreas Rochowski (sp?) but I don't know if they play like the above.

If there were a couple of other 400 ball runners in the USA like John Schmidt that aren't past their prime, then I'd be inclined to include a list of them on par with Germany and Taiwan. There aren't, so that answers that question.

It seems like you brush Germany off like it's nothing. Look at the resumes of Souquet and Ortmann. And look at how great Hohmann and Engert play. Those four play just as good as any four of the top Taiwanese players. If you don't think so, please explain why.

Anyways Buddha, I'm sure you like Yang in this match up against Orcullo. If you'd like, how about a small bet via paypal? Nothing big, I don't bet high. I'll bet up to $50 on Orcullo. Friendly bet, just for a little fun and excitement. What do you say?