Phillipino dominance?

[Roadie]

The real reason that we don't stack up to the phillipino players is that, here in the US we are taught to use a pendulum stroke which doesn't do much to create an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact with the cue ball. The Phillipino players are taught a double fulcrum stroke which automaticly generates an accelerating stroke. Look at their shoulder and upper arm when they stroke the ball.
Acceleration at the contact with the cue is important because it increases the contact time which allows the player greater feel and control.

there is more info on this subject on my website

Craig Smith
www.blackboarcustomcues.com

We "stack up" to the Phillipine players just fine. How do you explain Marlon Manalo's success if the so-called pendulum stroke is so bad? He has the classic snooker player's stroke, having been grounded in snooker before switching to pool.

There is a definite roster of Filipino players who are always a threat to win anything they enter. They don't however win everything they enter and we shouldn't forget that in our haste to proclaim American players as weaker.

There once was a player in the United States who wasn't challenged by the best Phillipine players. His name is Buddy Hall. At the time when Efren beat everyone else, Buddy beat Efren. Buddy's game now has deteriorated in direct proportion to his weight and health. It's sad, but I believe if Buddy had remained healthy then he and Efren would still share the limelight. Buddy told me that he once challenged Efren, Parica and Bustmante to one set each and they declined. I don't know if it's true or not but I can't recall any stories about Buddy Hall matching up with any of the Filipinos except for the time at Red's with Efren where Buddy won the 10 ahead set. Who might have been ducking whom may remain unknown. Point is - they didn't play, so there was at least one American who wasn't considered weaker than the Filipinos.

Anyway, double fulcrum stroke, pendulum, whatever, it's all about getting the balls to disappear and there are players the world over who do this consistently using a variety of styles.

 

[Roadie]

Roadie,

I think the contention is that no matter how good those Germans are, unless they prove it on the world stage all they have is the potential.

"What if's and what could have been" don't count. Many Filipinos compared to the Germans graduated from their "what if" status outside the country.

Case in point, Dennis Orcullo could have been the counterpart of one of those unknown Germans that you are talking about who can beat top-tier pros, but the difference is that he proved it by winning the World Pool League.

The most recent graduate of "what if university" is Ronato Alcano.

Well, I don't know what more proof you want than Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thortsten Hohmann, Thomas Engert, Andreas Roshkowksy. How "known" was Thosten Hohmann when he won the World Championships? And yes, Ronnie is a perfect example of this. A player who languished in a state of relative obscurity, known only to the hardcore as a contender and even then not given much of a chance to come through. Ronnie Alcano is no more an example of the depth of talent in the Phillipines vs. Germany than Thorsten is. Both of these men are people who have developed their talent and skill to the point that it has brought them pool's ultimate prize. Money enabled Thorsten to pursue pool on international stage and he has seen success there. I am sure Ronnie will see the same.

How known was Oliver Ortmann when he bet Steve Mizerak in the US Open 14.1?

But I agree, unless they prove it they will remain unknown. That still does not mean that they don't exist and that is the only point I am making. Just because Jeff DeLuna has not yet won a major doesn't mean he isn't capable. I would be a fool to say he's got no talent just because I don't happen to know of him.

 

[smashmouth]

fascinating that Efren and Buddy only matched up the one time

 

[crosseyedjoe]

But you can not deny that last year Filipinos ruled the pool world.

Maybe this year the Germans or Taiwanese will. Other countries may claim the top honor in the future, but presently the Philippines has the crown.

My prediction is that mainland China will eventually rule the pool world.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thortsten Hohmann, Thomas Engert, Andreas Roshkowksy

Nice line-up

But the WORLD is still waiting for the other Oliver Ortmann's, Ralf Souquet's, Thortsten Hohmann's, Thomas Engert's, Andreas Roshkowksy's. For all we know that list could be it.

At least the Taiwanese are revealing some new talents.

 

[JoeyInCali]

The real reason that we don't stack up to the phillipino players is that, here in the US we are taught to use a pendulum stroke which doesn't do much to create an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact with the cue ball. The Phillipino players are taught a double fulcrum stroke which automaticly generates an accelerating stroke. Look at their shoulder and upper arm when they stroke the ball.
Acceleration at the contact with the cue is important because it increases the contact time which allows the player greater feel and control.

there is more info on this subject on my website

Craig Smith
www.blackboarcustomcues.com

Scott Lee is going go nuts over this.

 

[sniper]

Good thread! Although it is only one tournament I think last year's WPC gives a pretty good indication about where the different powerhouses in pool stand: http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/files/knock out stages.pdf


At the top you have lot's of Filipino and Taiwanese players along with several European players. The American's are further behind in the pack although I think they are alot better than the results show, again this is only ONE tournament. The reason I used it for an example is that it's the only tournament where each country sends it's truly best players.

This is why pool needs a team event where each country sends it's top players to an event to compete in multiple disciplines. The world cup of pool is a great idea, but it's two players from each country playing short race nine ball, it would be great to see an event like this expand into larger teams with more disciplines.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

I meant density and accessibility. In America there are pockets where world beaters congregate but they aren't many. You aren't going to find much in the way of consistent cheap action happening with world beaters squaring off against weaker players hoping to get better. Backers don't back it and players in the USA can't afford it. Compare that to the Phillipines where tough action is all around and can be had for relatively little stakes. Winning a $100 set means a lot more there than it does here.

So if I am a Filipino player on my way up I can get all the tough games I want without having to travel very far. When I run out of competition I don't have to travel very far to get more. In the USA a good player runs out of competition very quickly and has to travel farther and farther and spend more and more to hone their game. That's what I really meant. It's a bit tougher of a nut to become a champion in the USA than it is in the Phillipines in my opinon. In the Phillipines you have tough competition all the time and a bunch of people who want your spot. I have lways said that champions breed champions.

Now, as to the idea that hustling diminishes skill. I said that because when a player is forced to constantly adjust his speed in order to trap the other player he cannot feel the same pressure to win in top gear. He cannot become battle hardened through flat out gunfights. I fully believe that the hustling aspect of the game is the reason that a lot of US players never realize their full potential. They are always sizing up their opponents, calculating the moves, adjusting their playing style. I think the Europeans, the Japanese, the Taiwanese and of course, the Filipinos, just play flat out and therefore they are more consistent on average. Of course anyone involved in the world of gambling on pool has hustled to some degree or another at times. I think though that for the most part the Filipinos and the Taiwanese are looking to match up fairly and not have a lock. In the USA 99.99% of the players on the road matching up are looking for a lock. And this doesn't do anything to make them better or stronger players. Any road player knows you can't make a living playing pool for money when your games all have a 50% chance of success.

Why is Dennis Orcullo so strong? Because he isn't hustling anyone. He just plays flat out everytime he plays. Do you think Kirkwood does that, or Bartram, or Basavich? Not a chance. They aren't taking on all comers to get stronger, they aren't giving out weight to champions. They are looking for the nuts when they match up.

So having been around for a long time I have yet to see anyone step over the line from being primarily a hustler to becoming a consistent world class pro. Sure there are plenty of guys who came in off the road, Jimmy Wetch, Basavich, and so on, but none of them have lived up to the potential they showed. Why? Well, in my opinion, it's because they spent a lot of their formative years in pool holding back.

Considering some of the facts that you pointed out Roadie, particularly the one with sizing your opponents and having a lock on them is a real problem in the american context of pool excellence. If I may say, you are referring to the term "PUSSY-WUSSY". I believe you are right with this kind of observation. most often than not, the tendency of the american players to improve their game does not improve if they don't get beaten or atleast have a real match. the tendency to practice and improve is ignored or neglected because of that lack of real competition that you were referring to. Therefore, the americans are confident in beating little fishes but lacks true confidence in their game playing pool sharks.
I believe that the americans rarely give any handicaps as well if that was what you are saying?

What I had observed in the filipinos' context of hustling is how they handle pressure and play with confidence inspite of playing against an unknown pool shark. in the event of a lose, they tend to get back at that opponent which caused them sooner or later. and let me tell you, the bets aren't getting any lower in every rematch made. sounds like a very acceptable proposition and definitely catchy. atleast for the filipinos point of view.

 

[Roadie]

I don't think the 2006 WPC is a fair indicator of where America stands in regards to the rest of the world in pool strength. I believe that the strain of the IPT was a huge demoralizing factor in the performance of the Americans. The weight of that whole fiasco had to be in the forefront and cannot be discounted.

Personally, I think that the IPT debacle might have hit the American pros hardest in the gut because they have belabored as third class citizens of the sports scene for so long and they truly wanted it so badly.

At least the foreign players, especially the Aisans, have been getting respect as sportsmen and recognition for the last decade whereas their American counterparts have not.

 

[Roadie]

Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thortsten Hohmann, Thomas Engert, Andreas Roshkowksy

Nice line-up

But the WORLD is still waiting for the other Oliver Ortmann's, Ralf Souquet's, Thortsten Hohmann's, Thomas Engert's, Andreas Roshkowksy's. For all we know that list could be it.

At least the Taiwanese are revealing some new talents.

Check the IPT relsults and you will see some of those new talents from Germany and Europe. Brian Beeker. Vilmos Foldes. The UK guys. Ben Nunnan??? Who is that? They just needed some incentive to get it together and come off the couch.

My point exactly, for all you know that could be it. For all I know Efren and Co could be the best in the Phillipines and that's it. But I know better because I rely on people who have been there and seen and reported on the talent pool. Just as I am doing with this thread and the Germans/Europeans. I have been there, seen that and know that there is deep well of talent there that just needs opportunity and means.

The comment that Germany is nowhere close to the Phillipines in depth of talent is way off base.

Someone mentioned Antonio Gabica earlier in this thread. He tried to make a living in Germany as a pool player and couldn't win enough tournaments to make it. While good he wasn't nearly as dominant as Bustamante and the Germans routinely beat him out of tournaments. Bustamante did in fact raise the level for the Germans when he got there in the early 90's. Busta was fearless giving out huge spots to the top players and beating them. That didn't last long though as the Germans learned quickly.

I will be the first to admit that the filipino players are definitely the standard by which all others are measured these days. Maybe that's really what the filipino dominance is. The fact that they are all so highly regarded for their skills and heart by their peers is the highest compliment they can get regardless of the actual trophy count.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Check the IPT relsults and you will see some of those new talents from Germany and Europe. Brian Beeker. Vilmos Foldes. The UK guys. Ben Nunnan??? Who is that? They just needed some incentive to get it together and come off the couch..

Did they come out with a "bang?" Luat, Orcullo and Stalev are the break out stars of IPT. I'm still waiting for the Germans "show of force" just like what the Taiwanese did in WPC (http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com...t stages.pdf - Filipinos showed the same during the 2 IPT tournaments). Specially with a mixed of known and unknown players. See, even with the show of "group talent," the Germans still haven't graduated from "what could have been's and what if's." The Germans still has to carry over their dominance in Europe to the rest of the world (or at least Team Europe beat the Americans to submission in Mosconi Cup).

My point exactly, for all you know that could be it. For all I know Efren and Co could be the best in the Phillipines and that's it. But I know better because I rely on people who have been there and seen and reported on the talent pool. Just as I am doing with this thread and the Germans/Europeans. I have been there, seen that and know that there is deep well of talent there that just needs opportunity and means.

That still doesn't explain why Germany has no Jerhome Pena and Jeff de Luna on the world stage.



"For all I know Efren and Co could be the best in the Phillipines and that's it. " -- I'll be sarcastic on this one -- I don't get it specially this part "that's it."



I want to see some results from these unknown German pool gods to remove the subjectivity of their total talent.

 

[buddha162]

When he said "lose money", I don't think he literally mean that the taiwanese will lose tournaments and lose money. They could win some tournaments and still lose money if their expenses (plane tickets, lodging, etc) exceeds their winnings. It could also mean that they could win $100,000 here in a month, but then if they stayed at home they could earn more because the pay is greater and there are less expenses.

Why even bother? In my experience the level of hysteria in a person's post usually holds an indirect relationship to their level of common sense...which is severely lacking in this thread, generally.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

but the point here sky is the fact that Roger is saying that the taiwanese are greater than the americans, europeans, filipinos in straight pool without having to compete outside to face foreign faces.

You are being an idiot, but that's not surprising either.

I never claimed that the Taiwanese are better straight pool players than anyone but the Filipinos. In fact, I never claimed that Taiwan is dominating in ANY area of the sport, except to say that they are on par with the Philippines. That is all I ever made claim to. The rest is simply your imagination at work.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

I don't hate the taiwanese players, except that Roger here makes a bad impression on them by feeding them with sausages.

Okay, I know exactly what you're trying to say here....

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

Now, if you want to take the top 100 players in the Filipines and match them up against the top 100 Germans there is no question that the Filipinos have the edge. Now compare the amount of people playing and competing regularly expressed as a percentage of the population and you will see that Germany might have a higher perentage of world class talent emerging from a pool of players that is less than the Phillipines has.

I say might, because I don't have the data to back up this theory. What I do have is plenty of anecdotal evidence of world class players whose names are virtually unknown outside of Europe. Just as you have such players in Taiwan, Japan, the Phillipines and China. Who ever heard of Li He Wen before this year's WPC? Not me, although he apparently played on some San Miguel stops. Seems the guy plays pretty good. I wonder how many more like him there are in China who haven't moved to the world stage yet?

The point is Roger that you cannot dismiss an entire country just because you happen to think that your guys Taiwan/Filipinos are the best. You might well be right, but that doesn't mean that your guys haven't ever been beaten by foreigners. They have been and will continue to be beaten in tournaments because in tournaments any world beater can beat any other world beater in any given set. Gambling in long sessions is another story.

I submit to all of you that the type of conditioning that the gambling in the Phillipines and Taiwan is unlike just about anywhere else in the world. IF the Europeans were conditioned the same way then I submit that they would also be considered to be feared money players.

I want to make a point about this. It appeals to our collective testosterone to want to crown the ultimate player. We all would like that person to be someone from our country. There is no question that Efren Reyes is the greatest player of our time. He has shown the ability to win when his peers in his age group are struggling. He has shown mastery of several disciplines. Efren also stands taller than his countrymen in this regard. I submit to the group that Efren is not great because he is Filipino but that he is simply a pure prodigy who happened to have the opportunity to do that which he is bet suited. Efren is our Willie Mosconi, our Willie Hoppe, our Jordan, our Tiger. His talent trancends nationality. While his countrymen also excel none of them has shown the same versatility as Efren to date. None have achieved what he has. Some may yet.

It is a mistake to try and classify one country as having the "best" players. All major countries have great players. And each of those countries has players that are the "best" at any given time. Until there are Ryder Cup style events that do pit each country's best against each other there won't be a clear answer. I propose that we just celebrate the fact that there are many great players who are all struggling to be the best they can be and that we are allowed to be a part of their perfect pool once in a while.

Lol we obviously interpret "depth of talent" differently. To me, it's about numbers, pure and simple. The best 100 Taiwanese players would SLAUGHTER the best 100 German players. I don't need to ever set foot in Germany to know this...and I can come to the same conclusion comparing Taiwan's depth of talent (my def, not yours) to any other country, with the exception of the Philippines.

In many ways Germany is an odd balls out in terms of pool excellence. Two world champions from a country that does not invest in the sport...very impressive indeed.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

The real reason that we don't stack up to the phillipino players is that, here in the US we are taught to use a pendulum stroke which doesn't do much to create an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact with the cue ball. The Phillipino players are taught a double fulcrum stroke which automaticly generates an accelerating stroke. Look at their shoulder and upper arm when they stroke the ball.
Acceleration at the contact with the cue is important because it increases the contact time which allows the player greater feel and control.

there is more info on this subject on my website

Craig Smith
www.blackboarcustomcues.com

And this gets better...

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

Good thread! Although it is only one tournament I think last year's WPC gives a pretty good indication about where the different powerhouses in pool stand: http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/files/knock out stages.pdf


At the top you have lot's of Filipino and Taiwanese players along with several European players. The American's are further behind in the pack although I think they are alot better than the results show, again this is only ONE tournament. The reason I used it for an example is that it's the only tournament where each country sends it's truly best players.

Look at the result from the last 3 years, it would show the same thing: Taiwan and the Philippines absolutely dominating the final 32, 16, 8...

-Roger

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Lol we obviously interpret "depth of talent" differently. To me, it's about numbers, pure and simple. The best 100 Taiwanese players would SLAUGHTER the best 100 German players. I don't need to ever set foot in Germany to know this...and I can come to the same conclusion comparing Taiwan's depth of talent (my def, not yours) to any other country, with the exception of the Philippines.

In many ways Germany is an odd balls out in terms of pool excellence. Two world champions from a country that does not invest in the sport...very impressive indeed.

-Roger

It's even more intriguing when you look at the Mosconi cup history. I think it's like 11-2 in favor of the Americans.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Look at the result from the last 3 years, it would show the same thing: Taiwan and the Philippines absolutely dominating the final 32, 16, 8...

-Roger

It's the humidity. Not fair!!!!

 

[Roadie]

Lol we obviously interpret "depth of talent" differently. To me, it's about numbers, pure and simple. The best 100 Taiwanese players would SLAUGHTER the best 100 German players. I don't need to ever set foot in Germany to know this...and I can come to the same conclusion comparing Taiwan's depth of talent (my def, not yours) to any other country, with the exception of the Philippines.

In many ways Germany is an odd balls out in terms of pool excellence. Two world champions from a country that does not invest in the sport...very impressive indeed.

-Roger

I guess we will just have to disagree then. It is my opinion that you are wrong about Germany and wrong about America as well as the best players would stack up against the Taiwanese and the Filipinos quite respectably.

I know what the state of the world is on this and know that my money would be safe if it ever did come down to a show down between the 100 best of each country.

"Slaughter" and "Not even close" are two descriptors you would need to revise heavily to indicate the level of respect you would gain for the player s you would come to know if there was money enough in this game to bring them out. And I don't even need to know you to know that you appreciate good pool and so would give the respect once you actually saw the talent on display.

Anyway. I hope we all get to just enjoy good pool.